SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

I observe that this question of whether R is for unicorns comes up fairly regularly. I also observe that it tends to generate more discord and division in this community than anything else I can think of. I’ll let you all in on some personal information (just promise to keep it secret), I’m in therapy. And my therapist would tell me that if I’m feeling a lot of emotion around a topic, there are probably some things under the hood that are influencing that.

I’m going to try to look at myself and ask why this is such an emotional and important topic for me. I invite others to put their cards on the table (and if this is too much of a thread jack, WBFA please just ask for a move to a new thread).

1. I have religious entanglements with the concept of reconciliation
2. I have invested 18 months into R and would look silly if that was a pipe dream
3. I still love my wife and the life we have together and want to have hope for retaining those things.

Regardless of data on rates and whatnot, those are things I can think of for why I personally am invested in my position on this topic. This might be a better use of words than staking out camps, as has been done multiple times before.

Hey InkHulk,

For what it is worth, I agree with your therapist.

This might be a better use of words than staking out camps, as has been done multiple times before.

I guess I don't see camps. I think everyone in this thread is offering their perspective based on what happened or is happening to them.

The whole R people are unicorns things doesn't get me fired up -- I only feel like if I'm around the forum, I need to offer that I exist and healing an M exists.

Most of the healed R and D members move on from here, and yet, I was always grateful for the ones who stayed here to help me when I needed it most.

HellFire, WBFA are flat out awesome members who devote precious free time to offer their experiences to help other people.

So, when I say that D perspective is critical to SI, I'm not seeing them as not in my camp. That informed decision I made was because of so many people contributing. WaitedWayTooLong is someone who helped me a lot, simply by being honest about his experience.

I do have to raise my hand when I'm told I won the lottery or I'm so rare I get the unicorn label -- that's hyperbole at best.

Again, I'm all good with people who are unable to support the path I am on. I'm just here to illuminate said terrain if people make the same choice.

Other quality R members helped me and then they left. At some point, I will leave it to others who found a similar way through to remind folks R is all up hill for a long time, but it's real.

Speaking of real or fantasy, which goes back to the thread topic, I should offer again, that when people say the A was fantasy, I don't think that helps a WS, it didn't help mine. Throwing an M away for fantasy makes it worse, or at least that phrase didn't help around here.

[This message edited by Oldwounds at 8:00 PM, Wednesday, December 20th]

I think we do them better by helping them understand that while *true* R does successfully happen, it’s (by far) the exception and not the rule.

Sorry gr8ful, I’m not picking on you specifically, this was just an easy quote to respond to the larger sentiment. BUT SERIOUSLY, has anyone ever read anyone here who advocates for R as the rule? I’ve been here a while now and I don’t think I’ve ever heard anyone profess that R, even if both partners want it, is a guarantee. NO ONE IS SAYING THAT. R is not for everyone – I think EVERYONE agrees on that. It’s hard and grueling and there are so many factors stacked against it, even when both people are (seemingly) all in. It is absolutely a gamble. True happiness in any marriage is not guaranteed. There are plenty of marriages where infidelity has not occurred, that are unhappy.

R has been successful for my husband and me and while I don't profess to having a perfect marriage, it's a happy one. While I’d love to say that I’m special and wonderful and take credit for this, I don’t think I'm some sort of special unicorn with some magical guaranteed formula for success. I can only speak to what worked for us. I’m also well aware that just because things are going well now, does not guarantee the future. But, I’m happy now and that is what matters. I rarely think of the A these days. Literally the only reason I stick around at this point, is because I really appreciated and benefited from hearing success stories, and words of encouragement, and strategies for optimism when I was a new BS and I feel some responsibility to pay that forward. If I didn’t feel this sense of duty to stick around, I’d be long gone – like many of the happily reconciled members who helped me in the early days. It makes 100% sense to me that they have moved on, while the people who are struggling in R, or have experienced new d-days would be overrepresented here. To that end…

How many members have returned with another dday? So very many.

Sure, I understand why it would feel this way, but this is an example of the anecdotal fallacy and probably a touch of confirmation bias. If the majority of my experience with car drivers was through the people I met at the auto collision shop, I might also get a skewed impression of just how likely it is to get into a car accident. I understand that the desire to want to understand the probabilities/statistics for success in R but it’s impossible to know and even if you could, the "odds" in a general sense wouldn’t determine your specific odds.

I no longer believe in reconciliation. AND THAT'S OK. People on here get very offended when members don't think R is a viable,good option. As if it somehow affects their situation. It doesn't. But it is a valid belief. Just as valid as those who do believe in reconciliation.

Believing that R can happen for some people is not the same as saying true R does not exist. It’s a false equivalence to suggest that my opinion that R was right for me is the same as your opinion that R is not viable at all, particularly where your belief necessarily discounts my existence/experience. If your opinion was that R was a bad choice FOR YOU, and you wish you hadn’t done it – perfectly valid. If your opinion was that R is not worth the effort/risk for most people – that is valid too, though you obviously can't speak to the intricacies of another person's cost/benefit analysis. If your opinion is that R will not be successful for a particular BS because of X,Y, and Z reason specific to their relationship based on your experences with the same - cool. But suggesting that true R doesn’t exist or is a unicorn (aka mythical or unattainable, by definition) necessarily suggests that you think I’m lying to myself and others. You are, of course, entitled to hold that opinion of me, but I’m not going to apologize for taking away your "safe space to share your feelings" when I counter it. You can have whatever feelings you want, but feelings aren’t facts, and it’s irresponsible to couch your feelings as facts when there are so many people here who are lost and looking for direction.

Try being a bs who had a truly remorseful ws, who did the work, and they cheat again. Instead of rushing in to shame someone in my situation for having the feelings we have, maybe try and put yourself in our position.

Who is rushing to shame anyone? No one is discounting YOUR experience. I’m not sitting here saying that re-offenders are unicorns and don’t exist (and thereby implying that you’re lying to yourself). I’m not even trying to hypothesize the various reasons why your R might not have been true R, and is therefore an exception. I’ll take you at your word that you had true R (can you see why it would be insulting if I suggested otherwise?). I absolutely understand why someone in your shoes would feel the way you do. You can (and should) speak from your experience, as long as you appreciate that your experience is not universal.

I know the following will piss people off. That's ok.

Are we? Are we talking to survivors in reconciliation? Or have they just not had another dday yet?

I’m far enough out and confident enough in my new marriage that this doesn’t hurt me. There is absolutely a time that it would have though. As someone who R’d once Hellfire, I imagine you know that - and perhaps that was the point. I imagine that for a lot of people early in R, the biggest fear is learning about false R/another affair. My stomach used to drop every time I read "I’m back" stories and they were a huge trigger for me for a while. So yes, I have certainly imagined being in your shoes. I agree with you that my imagination likely doesn’t begin to capture the depth of what your actual experience has been. That said, it is a bit rich to ask for understanding and empathy while posting things that seem almost purpose-designed to be hurtful to others. Most cancer survivors are well-aware of the risk of remission but I think we can agree it would be in poor form to call them, "people whose cancer has not come back yet".

I also observe that it tends to generate more discord and division in this community than anything else I can think of.

Oh man, you should see the threads where someone tries to claim that infidelity is more painful for one sex than another. I recall some of these debates that went on for easily 50 pages.

[This message edited by emergent8 at 10:46 PM, Wednesday, December 20th]

I agree with @Oldwounds in that there are no "camps" here, we all are just doing our best to give our perspectives.

I have been thinking about this some more. And something I just became consciously aware of, is how important CONTEXT is, I think for all of us in influencing our posting style.

I will elaborate. A newly-minted BH comes on here with a WW who is not only NOT remorseful but who isn't even regretful and is often defiantly still in the affair. My brow always furrows and my blood pressure rises whenever someone says to the newly BH something like 'R is possible if that is what you want' I mean YES that I suppose is technically true, but that is NOT what the new BH needs right now. What the new BH needs instead, is to be ANGRY. He should be FURIOUS at his WW and the shitshow she threw their life into. He needs to pick himself up and find his spine to protect himself and his family from his WW's nonsense. He does not need to be pining over WW and asking himself what it will take to get her to wake up and get past POSOM.

I post in a similar style when I see a BH who may be being too lenient/soft with his WW. I do not want to see him walked over, so instead I want him angry, even if he ends up getting angry at ME. I just CAN'T STAND to see a good man get walked over.

Anyway, THESE are most of the threads we see on here. Hence, my posting style. But I just came to realize I am really not 'against R' per se. If someone has a partner who is willing to do whatever it takes to help their BS heal--including giving their BS a more-than-fair divorce settlement--and BS wants to try for R, that IMO R sounds great. I mean, maybe I could see myself considering R if I were in that situation. It is just....so rare to see however. And trying for R with a partner who is still foggy or self-protecting seems like such a risky journey. Why the hell does the WS deserve that and why should the BS try, given that there are so many good people out there who won't cheat.

This is getting away from the original topic. Someone on here said something to the effect of an affair not being like real-life and I reacted strongly to that, this was the subject of this thread.

[This message edited by WontBeFooledAgai at 11:35 PM, Wednesday, December 20th]

Anyway, THESE are most of the threads we see on here.

Are they, though? I don't think so. I think what we usually see is some version of "R might be possible, but it's not going to happen if you don't stop taking her crap." Telling a new BS to ditch his cheating wife when what he wants to do is save his marriage is counterproductive. He's not going to heed that advice. Frame it like "It's okay to hope, but get tough or all hope will be lost. Here's how." and it will be much better received because you're offering a solution. You're showing him the path to what he wants.

I am a firm FIRM believer in getting tough from the outset. The sooner a BS stops tolerating cake-eating, fence-sitting, TT'ing, etc, the better the outcome will be, regardless of whether it's R or D.

I agree: Anger is the answer. Anger is powerful and protective. Anger gets shit done.

This is getting away from the original topic.

I think it's okay to jack your own thread.

[This message edited by SacredSoul33 at 3:25 AM, Thursday, December 21st]

R and D are mutually terrible, hard, and just plain suck. There is truly no painless way of getting out of infidelity. Anyone who claims one is easier and superior to the other is kidding themselves. I think it’s human nature to look for others who chose a similar path as us to quiet our fears of whether we chose the "right" path. Humans want to be right. Others agreeing with us feed our ego that we chose correctly. It’s kind of sad, but true. That being said, anyone who uses this site as a sampling of infidelity outcomes doesn’t know much about statistics and how to conduct a fair, scientific study. So many people come on here and never post, some tell their story and are never heard from again, many I’d venture to say most affected by infidelity never see this site. I can think of 8 couples I know who have infidelity in their marriage. None of them have any desire to seek opinions from internet strangers even though I’ve told them of this site. All but one are attempting reconciliation.Their successes or failures at reconciliation really can’t be judged by an outsider so I won’t comment on their relationship except to say they all claim to be happily "working it out.". My point is, using this site and quoting those who come after a repeated bout of cheating is silly. Of course those who have utilized this site before will be back if cheated on again. But, there is no way to quantify those who don’t come back and have successfully reconciled. Or those who never posted or came here at all. So, when I see those who use this site and the "back again" posts as a way to drill home their point that all cheaters never change or reformed cheaters are a unicorn I mentally do an eye roll and remind myself that humans want validation in their choices , that their situations are not unique, and that most people truly don’t understand basic statistics. That all being said, infidelity sucks for all. Happy holidays, people… find the joy where you can. :)
I apologize for continuing this thread Jack. 🤷‍♀️

[This message edited by OnTheOtherSideOfHell at 3:18 AM, Thursday, December 21st]

SI needs a like button.

In my reading of the threads on this site i see mostly people who have been horribly impacted by infidelity. These people are looking for somewhere safe and some guidance on how to figure out the truth. It starts out as the truth about the infidelity but as time passes it becomes finding truth regarding their immediate and extended families, friends, finances, job and what they thought their life was.

I believe it is natural for the BS to want to reconcile after infidelity. Telling a freshly minted BS that reconciliation is possible is in a way telling them what they want to hear. So while it is true that reconciliation may be possible it is selling the new BS a narrative that they are leaning towards already.

Back on topic. Talk of fantasy / not real / inauthentic in terms of infidelity seems to me to be wayward thinking. It attempts to explain the infidelity but it does so while diminishing and minimizing the damage caused by the infidelity to something less than a fantasy.

What other act where an individual intentionally commits a wrong against another person can they claim 'it was just a fantasy, none of it was real' and have it be meaningful? This could be robbery, assault, manslaughter, injury, .....

That being said, anyone who uses this site as a sampling of infidelity outcomes doesn’t know much about statistics and how to conduct a fair, scientific study.

#like

Who is rushing to shame anyone?

Lol..no. I'm not naming names. But I will give some examples.

A BS posts that they now,after another dday, despise cheaters. All of them. That they feel no cheater deserves another chance,because they have experienced the very worst kind of cheater. They are destroyed. They are angry. They are lashing out, here,in their safe place. And someone rushes in to tell them that's not fair, because THEIR ws is doing the work, hasn't cheated,etc. It's a bit cruel. Bragging to someone who is in pain.

I have a few other examples, but out of respect for certain members, I will just end it here.

A newly-minted BH comes on here with a WW who is not only NOT remorseful but who isn't even regretful and is often defiantly still in the affair. My brow always furrows and my blood pressure rises whenever someone says to the newly BH something like 'R is possible if that is what you want

Yes! I agree with this. Also, the BH who has decided they are going to divorce immediately. They know the affair was a deal breaker, and they're done. Certain members always try to advise them on how they could still reconcile. They give them the minimum requirements they should ask for,and what they should say to their wife to try to wake her up. Even when he comes back and says he's seen an attorney,and talks divorce. The same members keep pushing him to consider reconciliation. I see this happening with BH,way more than BW. It's also interesting that these same members seem to take offense whenever anyone here says this site is leans more for reconciliation than divorce.

If a BS doesn't want to spend years trying to make it work with someone who has abused them(and I believe infidelity is abuse), that should be respected. Especially when the ww has zero remorse, and is still cheating.

I think the key to recovering from the Hell of infidelity is Universal, and that’s belief in oneself first — be it R or D.

Wow! Quote thread. I may copy this for my tagline. You've distilled over half a million posts into one sentence.

Believing that R can happen for some people is not the same as saying true R does not exist. It’s a false equivalence to suggest that my opinion that R was right for me is the same as your opinion that R is not viable at all, particularly where your belief necessarily discounts my existence/experience. If your opinion was that R was a bad choice FOR YOU, and you wish you hadn’t done it – perfectly valid. If your opinion was that R is not worth the effort/risk for most people – that is valid too, though you obviously can't speak to the intricacies of another person's cost/benefit analysis. If your opinion is that R will not be successful for a particular BS because of X,Y, and Z reason specific to their relationship based on your experences with the same - cool. But suggesting that true R doesn’t exist or is a unicorn (aka mythical or unattainable, by definition) necessarily suggests that you think I’m lying to myself and others. You are, of course, entitled to hold that opinion of me, but I’m not going to apologize for taking away your "safe space to share your feelings" when I counter it. You can have whatever feelings you want, but feelings aren’t facts, and it’s irresponsible to couch your feelings as facts when there are so many people here who are lost and looking for direction.

Very well said.

I have no issue with telling someone that R doesn't seem likely to succeed for a particular poster. Many posts, however, state, in essence, that the poster hasn't seen any successful Rs, thereby calling many fellow members liars. I trigger on that sort of thing. I wish I didn't, but I do.

I have big issues with anyone who thinks SI provides a statistically valid sample for recovering from infidelity and argues therefore, that SI proves R is high risk.

Are we? Are we talking to survivors in reconciliation? Or have they just not had another dday yet?

How is that different from asking, 'Are there any faithful people? Or do we just have people who haven't been tempted by the right (wrong) fools' gold yet?'

My brow always furrows and my blood pressure rises whenever someone says to the newly BH something like 'R is possible if that is what you want' I mean YES that I suppose is technically true, but that is NOT what the new BH needs right now.

You miss the context.

I think you'll see that the advice generally is, 'R is technically possible, if both partners want it and if both partners do the work.'

And I suspect that is written only to BSes who state or imply in their posts that they have an interest in R.

I post in a similar style when I see a BH who may be being too lenient/soft with his WW. I do not want to see him walked over, so instead I want him angry, even if he ends up getting angry at ME. I just CAN'T STAND to see a good man get walked over.

And that bugs me to some extent. Is it OK to walk over women? Are women not human beings? Is their blood different from men's? IDK ... do docs check the donor's gender when they do blood transfusions?

IMO, girls are brought up to be givers, so my bet is that women get walked over more than men do. I see that as a problem. Do you? If not, why not?

If someone has a partner who is willing to do whatever it takes to help their BS heal....

There's nothing one person can do to heal another's emotions. We can provide emotional support, but every person has to heal themself.

To anyone who disagrees, please explain how someone could have healed you after your d-day. What can a WS really do to replace what the BS lost? My bet is that if you start to write it out, you'll realize that the losses cannot be made up - the BS will never get back the resources put into the A by the WS.

You miss the context.

I think you'll see that the advice generally is, 'R is technically possible, if both partners want it and if both partners do the work.'

And I suspect that is written only to BSes who state or imply in their posts that they have an interest in R.

ETA: Forgive me, I just saw this.

(to address your point here) Unfortunately I did NOT miss the context. A BS comes on here, being ABUSED by their WS (in a number of instances the WS are unrepentantly keeping up with the affair right in front of BS), and they are told 'R is technically possible, if both partners want it and if both partners do the work.' (That is pretty much what I noted already--the 'if both partners want it...' clause hardly changes it, so no, no context missed by me).

Telling someone in that situation that R can be achieved even with an 'if..' thrown in--that is a HORRIBLE take, reason being that the last thing you'd want to tell someone abused is how to save their relationship, you'd instead want them to understand how severe their situation is and get the hell outta Dodge.

And that bugs me to some extent. Is it OK to walk over women? Are women not human beings? Is their blood different from men's? IDK ... do docs check the donor's gender when they do blood transfusions?

IMO, girls are brought up to be givers, so my bet is that women get walked over more than men do. I see that as a problem. Do you? If not, why not?

But @sisoon, this is a strawman argument. I am talking about being angry for BHs and this post is talking about...something completely different. What gets my gander up is that it feels to me like an intentional misinterpretation of what I wrote before.

ETA: For anyone else reading this, I am NOT saying that BWs have it easier or their pain isn't as bad, because their pain is indeed just as bad. And the pain of a BW counts just as much. I am male and that is my perspective so that is whom I will be giving much of my energy towards.

There's nothing one person can do to heal another's emotions. We can provide emotional support, but every person has to heal themself.

To anyone who disagrees, please explain how someone could have healed you after your d-day. What can a WS really do to replace what the BS lost? My bet is that if you start to write it out, you'll realize that the losses cannot be made up - the BS will never get back the resources put into the A by the WS.

I will tell a story. I had a really bad deep cut once, it was infected. Throbbing pain, inflammation, a big area of redness, you name it. I went to see the doctor, who cleaned out my wound and removed the offending shard still in my skin. Then in the next weeks and months I got better. I mean, it still was sensitive for a while and there was a scar that was there for quite a while after, , but I was on the way to improving.

My body healed itself, as nothing would be fixed unless new cells were grown in what was previously the open wound and my body had to do that. And to that end I had to actively make a point of applying the medicine given as prescribed and change out the gauze covering the cut and keep it clean. But my doctor *helped* my body heal itself, by removing the irritating factors and by wrapping it in the sterilizing gauze, providing an environment conducive to healing. There were also follow-up visits. See where I am going with this?

[This message edited by WontBeFooledAgai at 9:43 PM, Thursday, December 21st]

I observe that this question of whether R is for unicorns comes up fairly regularly. I also observe that it tends to generate more discord and division in this community than anything else I can think of. I’ll let you all in on some personal information (just promise to keep it secret), I’m in therapy. And my therapist would tell me that if I’m feeling a lot of emotion around a topic, there are probably some things under the hood that are influencing that.

I’m going to try to look at myself and ask why this is such an emotional and important topic for me. I invite others to put their cards on the table (and if this is too much of a thread jack, WBFA please just ask for a move to a new thread).

1. I have religious entanglements with the concept of reconciliation
2. I have invested 18 months into R and would look silly if that was a pipe dream
3. I still love my wife and the life we have together and want to have hope for retaining those things.

Regardless of data on rates and whatnot, those are things I can think of for why I personally am invested in my position on this topic. This might be a better use of words than staking out camps, as has been done multiple times before.

Always good to hear from you InkHulk, and your point about looking deeper as to why we feel so intensely about something, is well-taken indeed.

"The Affair was Not Real" is a perfect example of gaslighting either the WS gaslighting the BS or the BS gaslighting themselves to make the A more palatable. Every single A was real whether it be in real life or online. It didn't happen in a movie or TV show it happened in REAL life.

I no longer believe in reconciliation. AND THAT'S OK. People on here get very offended when members don't think R is a viable,good option. As if it somehow affects their situation. It doesn't. But it is a valid belief. Just as valid as those who do believe in reconciliation.

I'm in this boat as well, most likely due to my experience with it and seeing it happen to family members my whole life. The only people that I know that are happy reconciled are in this forum. I don't know any in real life. My M was an obvious disaster that ended in a much needed divorce due to lack of remorse, NPD behavior and repeated cheating. My parents are reconciled but my mom wishes she would have left. There is no love there at all and she's the one who cheated. My dad says her A still keeps him up at night and this is 30+ years later. One of my good friends reconciled, they are happy but she still brings up the A and they still have marriage issues that preceded the A that continue today. It's nice to hear from people that are happily reconciled especially when it is not that way for me and my circle of those who have had A's. It shows it is possible and real.

Another part is knowing yourself and I tend to not let things go and hold grudges if someone wrongs me or disrespects me in a major way. Not sure if it is my cPTSD and how my body protects me, but once something like this happens I tend to not be or feel the same way towards the person who wronged me. I don't believe I am a good candidate for R.

But @sisoon, this is a strawman argument. I am talking about being angry for BHs and this post is talking about...something completely different. What gets my gander up is that it feels to me like an intentional misinterpretation of what I wrote before.

Actually, here is what you wrote before. You deleted it (in one of the 18 separate edits you made to your comment), but those of us with Platinum memberships can still see it in the edit history.

This, from my vantage, becomes even harder to believe if:
(a) We are a much better long-term prospect than AP e.g., higher income everyone likes us i.e., you want to be with uS because we are the Safe Choice.
(b) The AP turns out to not want a relationShip after DDay after all (which wouldn't that make the BS the 2nd choice--it looks even more that you'd really be with AP had he wanted to).
(c) The BS/BP is male (not talked about enough on here but we don't want to feel like a cuck).

You point blank compared the male and female experience of R and stated that independent of any other factor, it's harder for a BH because they are male. It's not sisoon making a "strawman argument" or an "intentional misinterpretation." You spelled it out as a separate line item, so please don't tell us that we're imagining it.

I don't think that is fair at all. I deleted it immediately after I wrote it because I knew it was wrong. The pain of being betrayed hurts equally for both genders.

This is troubling. It feels like admins who are pro-R are now playing this game of gotcha w those of us who feel differently. Maybe I don't belong here.

** Not posting as staff **

...it feels to me like an intentional misinterpretation of what I wrote before.

I don't think that is fair at all. I deleted it immediately after I wrote it because I knew it was wrong.

I responded to what I read. Your edit wasn't immediate, because the words were there when I read your post.I do not know what edits you made, nor did I even realize you edited your post until BSR posted. I can guarantee that I didn’t dig into one of your earlier versions.

You posted, got confronted, apparently edited the offending line, and now complain of being misinterpreted intentionally. And you accuse the mods of playing gotcha? Nope. You set yourself up to be misinterpreted. We are all responsible for what we write.

*****

You assert that too often staff who are ‘pro R’ inappropriately write 'R is possible if you want it.'

I assert that what is actually written is, 'R is possible if you both want it and do the work' written only to BSes who say or imply that they have an interest in R.'

Please cite posts that cheer-lead for R when the WS is not remorseful. You don’t have to go into past posts. Just point it out when you see an example in the future.

*****

A WS can do nothing that's analogous to cleaning a wound, applying antibiotic, etc. A WS can do nothing that's analogous to growing new cells in someone else's body.

I don't think the healing sciences heal. Rather, I think they support people in healing themselves. So far, that's the best healing science can do - and it's all healing science needs to do, IMO.

Where the problem is physical, most people sort of let themselves heal. They may rest. They may see a doc. They may take prescribed drugs. They may self-medicate. But most people let themselves heal from physical ailments.

When the problem is deeply emotional, it seems a sufferer needs to choose to heal consciously, and it takes more effort than taking a prescription or resting.

For a BS to expect their WS to heal them = that’s pretty much exactly like the WS who expects external validation from ap (and BS) to heal what’s ailing them.

I think your analogy is way off.

*****

How does posting 'R is possible' indicate the poster is 'pro R'?

[This message edited by SI Staff at 10:31 AM, Friday, December 22nd]

A WS can do nothing that's analogous to cleaning a wound, applying antibiotic, etc. A WS can do nothing that's analogous to growing new cells in someone else's body.

My read of WBFA’s analogy would be something more like getting stabbed with a shard of glass and a big chunk is still stuck inside you. To properly heal, you’ve got to get all the glass out. And in that framework, it points out that being in the presence of the betrayer is like trying to heal with the shard still embedded, and it follows that the best thing a wayward could do is just leave and stop triggering us. I think there is some validity to that.

But as all models are wrong, but some are useful, in that framework we don’t love the glass. It’s more like what would you do if you became terribly allergic to your child? It’s a hell of a dilemma, your child and your health are now at odds with each other. But if you believe that over time that dilemma can be resolved well and you could keep both, then it’s not crazy to pursue that.

And we can object to the word "camps", but the temperature is rising amongst a bunch of people who all have a shared goal to help people impacted by infidelity and act on it regularly by sharing the best they have to offer. My two cents.

I don't think that is fair at all. I deleted it immediately after I wrote it because I knew it was wrong. The pain of being betrayed hurts equally for both genders.

Again, no. It sat there for over an hour, during which time you made several edits without removing that particular assertion. I saw it during that window and had planned to come back and respond, but when I returned, you had taken it down. I thought, "Fair enough, all of us say things once in a while that we think are inadvisable, so I won't resurrect it." But then you accused staff of deliberately mischaracterizing you by attributing a position that you did, in fact, state. That's rewriting history, which the delete button does not enable you to do.

This is troubling. It feels like admins who are pro-R are now playing this game of gotcha w those of us who feel differently. Maybe I don't belong here.

DARVO. All sisoon did was respond to your post. This isn't some grand administrative conspiracy against members who are opposed to R.

As it happens, I'm not staff anymore; I stepped down when I decided to participate less, and I have no access to the mod or guide forums, nor did I discuss my comment with anyone beforehand. This is me as a private citizen, calling out a misrepresentation that any Platinum member can fact check if they are so inclined. Wrapping a cloak of victimhood and persecution around yourself doesn't absolve you of responsibility for your actions, even the ones you later regret. As a recovering wayward, I know that better than anyone.