SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

I think YOU are trustyworthy @hikingout, and that WOES is trustworthy as well. But long-winded explanations make my head hurt.

If someone tries to tell me that the earth is flat when I can see it is round, I won't believe that person, no matter.

Of course differing viewpoints are allowed and welcome. In my OP I don't recall asking a question though...

[This message edited by WontBeFooledAgai at 3:37 AM, Sunday, January 28th]

You didn’t ask a question, you sparked a discussion. And that will bring up various experiences.

And long winded explanations sounds insulting to be honest. There are lots of longer posts here but the ones that disagree with you seem to make your head hurt.

If you do not want to evolve your thinking on a topic, that’s fine. However I will take the time to explain it for other who may be interested in what I have to say. However, if you would like me to bow out because you just want to vent, I respect that too.

[This message edited by hikingout at 4:36 AM, Sunday, January 28th]

I am speaking only on my own behalf, as a BH, and not as a staff member. I think that the OP in this thread is venting out of real pain, and I hope he continues to post and receive help. There has been a great deal of venting on this thread and unfortunately, generalizing.

The OP did not ask a question to begin the thread, he stated he knew the intensity WS felt during their A’s, how they felt, what they experienced, and who they trusted. But of course he does not know how an individual WS felt during an A. He’s never been a WS. It’s just his opinion unsupported by personal experience as a WS. No matter how often he repeats that he is right that he knows how all WS feel during an A, it’s still just an unsupported opinion. He believes very strongly that he knows how every WS feels, but that doesn’t make his opinion credible. It’s just an opinion. And that’s fine. It is what it is.

But there are WS who have done the work and who contribute to this thread and others in good faith sharing their experiences. Many BS’s have commented on how invaluable their contributions have been to understanding their own situation. WS who have shared on this thread about their OWN feelings and experiences during their A, have been told that they are wrong. That they don’t know their own life experience, that the OP knows their experience better than they do. Basically calling the WS dishonest by the OP who has never been a WS and is telling strangers he knows their life experience better than they do.

To those WS I want to say your sharing your real experience and feelings during the A are helpful and valid even when dismissed out of hand by the OP. Keep sharing your truth even when demeaned and denied by the OP. Life and human behavior is complicated and may not fit into a short, simple narrative opinion. Keep posting.

I appreciate that post fareast, for clarity I do not personally feel demeaned, nor will it deter me to post on this forum. I am comfortable that I know my own truth. I too understand that the OP has his own experience and probably hasn’t found his way through the maze of healing and I harbor no resentment of that.

I think it’s hard for some to see that it’s not rewriting history, but rather an evolution of self awareness that we try and express through relating how and what happens. As a ws, if I didn’t evolve the way I see my affair now, my perspective would be bashed because I would still have wayward thinking. Kind of a damned if you do, damned if you don’t sort of thing. I am okay with that.

I am going on seven years of living with all that has happened. I can’t expect others, especially ones who hasn’t watched their ws on a similar journey to understand.

In fact, while many may have a hard time seeing me as a bs, I reconciled with my own ws. If I were holding some dark truth about ws mindset, I certainly would be divorced.

I don’t believe my husband trusted his AP. I think for some period of time he felt he had things handled. Then I believe the affair went on longer than it would have because of that distrust that she would blow it all up. I believe he sought an escape with her and that was her value. If that was mixed with feelings of love, it was an objectified version.

I will point out to the OP that if you want to vent, just put that beside the title and ws are not supposed to post in those threads.

[This message edited by hikingout at 5:55 AM, Sunday, January 28th]

Have skimmed this really great thread and feel I can see all points of view. I agree that the WS is pursuing a fantasy self often, so the fantasy bit is the image of self.

I believe the survival statistics for marriages borne from affairs are quite low, and for me this supports the idea that the quotidian everyday reality doesn’t live up to the fantasy, when stripped off the cloak of escapist, endorphin high false relating - false because it is a false self that is generally presented, a fantasy self, in an affair.

Edited as I hadn’t read the thread fully and had picked up the wrong end of the stick re OP. And now I have, see also I am simply reiterating points others have already made. 😬

[This message edited by Edie at 12:24 PM, Sunday, January 28th]

Of course differing viewpoints are allowed and welcome. In my OP I don't recall asking a question though...

You may not have asked a question, but can you understand how frustrating it is when someone takes something you said and then twists it out of context to make a point? Then have multiple members share that view without the context?

Never once have I said, as your title states, the affair wasn’t real. I did say, however that it wasn’t based on reality, meaning fantasy. These are two different things. I won’t go into why it is a fantasy because that has been done several times here and I don’t want your head to hurt.

I do want you to understand that you contradict yourself. You say that you consider hikingout and me trustworthy, yet discount what we say.

Again, I don’t plan on changing your mind, but I’m not exactly a flat earther here. This is a situation where both things can be right…divorce and reconciliation. Not for everyone, but under specific circumstances.

I don’t post in divorce and separation or several of the ICR threads because I am aware enough that I don’t have that experience to offer the best advice. Take this opportunity to be more self aware.

If something puts your hackles up, look within yourself to figure out why. Maybe ask about that instead of twisting the words of someone else.

You cite Occam’s razor, but I would say the phrase often attributed to Einstein is more applicable

Things should be made as simple as possible, but not simpler

Infidelity is a wickedly complex subject, full of psychology, deceit, love, hate, hope, faith. Trying to compress this thing down to "apes like to spread their DNA", I posit, is making things far far too simple. And speaking as a friend, continuing to say that the long explanations make your head hurt isn’t a good look, it sounds like you refuse to even try to overcome confirmation bias. I strongly recommend you take the time to ingest what they are saying. I’m not saying that you have to agree with them, but if you trust me at all (see what I did there?) then believe that what they are saying contains wisdom and deep perspective of intense value to a healing BS. Otherwise, everything worth saying was said about 7 pages ago.

Wikipedia's opening paragraph on Occam's Razor:

In philosophy, Occam's razor (also spelled Ockham's razor or Ocham's razor; Latin: novacula Occami) is the problem-solving principle that recommends searching for explanations constructed with the smallest possible set of elements. It is also known as the principle of parsimony or the law of parsimony (Latin: lex parsimoniae). Attributed to William of Ockham, a 14th-century English philosopher and theologian, it is frequently cited as Entia non sunt multiplicanda praeter necessitatem, which translates as "Entities must not be multiplied beyond necessity",[1][2] although Occam never used these exact words. Popularly, the principle is sometimes inaccurately[3] paraphrased as "The simplest explanation is usually the best one."[4]

For the record, I believe the bolded sentence is very important.

*****

But long-winded explanations make my head hurt.

Yeah, but the explanations have not been long-winded. Sharing one's experience takes usually requires more words than describing a principle.

Reading or not reading is your choice. Telling people they don't know what they've experienced is way out of line.

*****

It feels like a death. Like saying it was fantasy or not real makes it feel like it’s forgettable.

A WS who uses 'fantasy' as an excuse is way off track. Certainly using fantasy as an excuse is likely to be an attempt to minimize.

There are significant differences between excuses and explanations, and 'fantasy' often is a useful explanatory metaphor.

I'm very sorry anyone reads 'an A is a fantasy' as a reason to forget that you've been betrayed. But that's not the only way to read the proposition. For many of us, 'the A is a fantasy' helps make the A more understandable and more memorable, not less.

Besides, 3yrsout, I think you've described one way that an A is simultaneously real and fantasy.

*****

Healing from being betrayed requires, IMO, avoiding reacting and instead responding in a way that is your own best interests. A response may come quickly, but it must come from noticing and evaluating the facts on the ground. Reactions certainly are facts on the ground, but they're not the only ones.

Healing from being betrayed, IMO, benefits greatly by questioning one's own assumptions and preconceptions.

You may not have asked a question, but can you understand how frustrating it is when someone takes something you said and then twists it out of context to make a point? Then have multiple members share that view without the context?

Never once have I said, as your title states, the affair wasn’t real. I did say, however that it wasn’t based on reality, meaning fantasy. These are two different things. I won’t go into why it is a fantasy because that has been done several times here and I don’t want your head to hurt.

Well but in this thread I don't recall mentioning your name on here at all until you posted--in fact I mentioned another thread with the title "affairs are nothing but fantasy". And then when you did post on this thread I did my best to clarify which post of yours I had reacted to (page 8). And then I was pretty careful to stress that I was not saying anything about yours or anyone else's walk, only an awful take **that I have heard from way too many WS not just here**. Meanwhile, people here were agreeing with me strongly that yes indeed, WS trusted AP. I apologized if I sounded like I was casting aspersions (on page 8 of this thread) on you in any event, do you want me to apologize again?

It truly was not my intention to misrepresent anyone's words or positions or anything.

I will try again, as I realize I did not do such a good job. The words 'But WS didn't really trust AP' or anything to that effect (from a fWS that is) just sounds awfully close to myself as 'It's not what it looks like' or 'It's not what you think' or 'Don't believe your lying eyes'. It just comes across to me as a huge insult especially when actions say that yeah, WS did in fact trust AP. It's the whole 'if it looks like a duck, walks like a duck, quacks like a duck, and floats like a duck...'--I'm not open to any explanation that sounds like someone telling me that it is in fact NOT a duck.

And even if we believe that it is fantasy of sorts--well it sure seems to me a lot like when we date someone we are really excited about and we find ourselves falling fast. We ARE--say 3 months in--giddy and excited about the person and we "trust" them, but that doesn't mean we are ready to say give them our bank account info yet. We are all old enough to understand that we may have built this person up in our heads and are still only getting to know the person. This even though we are still putting our best foot forward and are inclined to believe on some level that 'everything they do is magic' (even though we know in our rational brain that it isn't really true). After reading all the explanations on here I still cannot differ between this bit of fantasy present when we are falling in love with someone (both parties single and available) months after meeting, and affair fantasy.

I really appreciated @hikingout's observation (page 9 towards the bottom) that often 'Face value is what really matters'. Any of us who have been lied to have been bamboozled by complex explanations from others or even ourselves. When we would have been much better simply taking the actions at face value instead. And so on my end there is a protective closed-mindedness and a distrust of complex explanations.

In the future I will be a lot more careful about lashing out, but I hope the fWS take into account that 'Face value is what really matters'--to amny of us at least--and that if they give a take that goes greatly against what face value would indicate, that it is extremely challenging for some people to take in.

Thank you @fareast and @InkHulk and everyone else for the kind words. I already said my piece, so I'd like to propose everyone else on here say THEIR piece on this, and then if its all the same to everyone else, we can lock this thread up.

[This message edited by WontBeFooledAgai at 10:39 PM, Sunday, January 28th]

I did say face value is what matters. But you are taking that further than what I imagined it.

Look, I will do this one in reverse with my bs experience. At face value, my husband had a highly sexual affair in my home for 18 months. She was our employee so we knew each other and chatted regularly. In many ways it was a double betrayal.

But todays face value, I have a husband who would do anything to make me happy. I have a partner and a love that I can dream with. A lover who thrills me, and whom I trust as much as I would anyone I would ever have a romantic relationship with in the future.

So, my comments were about face value when you are in the thick of it. A bs who chooses to try to reconcile will eventually have a new picture of the ws if the ws is willing to be reliable and safe and whatever else needs to happen.

There is nothing wrong with a bs calling it and getting a divorce at any given time. They have to decide what that "face value is".

I think you are trying to read that it doesn’t matter about the evolution of the ws, the bs, or the marriage.

And of course face value means- the affair happened. Whether it was based on delusional thinking or not. I don’t think a single couple on this site who reconciled would tell you the affair is not real. Instead you would find two people to accepted the face value and built something from scratch. They both had to come to terms with why the ws did what they did. They both had to decide they were willing to work through it. Working through it means the ws has to change the characteristics within themselves and see the affair through the eyes of the bs as closely as that is possible. And through that discovery we unearth all sorts of around about mindset.

And that to me boils down to the AP and I used and objectified each other. Did that create giddy feelings? Yes, of course. But the difference for me between that and normal falling in love is that it’s a bastardizarion of a "relationship". It’s based on lies, betrayal, two people being their worst selves. Any love was that of an objectified nature. There is no beauty to be found in something like that.

The face value of the affair has to be dealt with and accepted. It happened. It’s reality. But as time moves on understanding that the ws’s decisions weren’t based on them, they were based on a very flawed ws who makes disastrous decisions often as part of avoidant behavior. That’s where it can have value rather than the bs carrying around the pain of they weren’t enough for someone. If the bs and we can understand each other, then they can begin to reconcile what’s happening moving forward.

You chose not to reconcile, I know this was the right decision for you. But maybe sit and think about what you want peace to look like? Do you plan to be a wronged man until you die and carry the wounds as if you deserve them? I don’t know that you see yourself this way but your readers here all acknowledge the pain they read in your words. Likely the trauma that your ws dealt you is tied to lots of other traumas and pains that you have experienced over the span of your life. A good therapist is great for helping to unwind those.

I wish you the best.

[This message edited by hikingout at 11:49 PM, Sunday, January 28th]

Hikingout

Working through it means the ws has to change…

To truly R, the BS has to change too. Fair or not, it’s the way it is.

Locking now at the request of the OP.