SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

It was tossed in a box and forgotten. Then when we moved he noticed it and threw it away. But it bothers me that it was tossed in a box to begin with,, when it was given, rather than simply thrown away. It’s true he throws nothing away ever but it still bothers me. It seems he utterly ignored every step on the slippery slope. Again I sort of wish I was never told.

It’s a tough spot, wanting to have all of the information, yet wishing we didn’t have the need to store every little detail in our already over-capacity brains.

Hugs to you.

Isn’t it incredible that we can have deep empathy for a person we only know from internet posts (and I really feel for you SC, prayers and hugs) but somehow our partners and their illicit partners can so callously ignore the damage they are doing and look us in the eyes the whole time? That speaks to me of a disconnect with reality as well.

WBFA, thank you for promoting this excellent discussion.

Inkhulk,

Isn’t that the biggest head scratcher of it all? How they could treat anyone so horrendously much less one they claim to love ? I struggled for years with shame for loving and wanting to reconcile with what I saw as a terrible human. What I finally came to believe after years of therapy and pain is that the cheaters truly lacked the emotional capacity to comprehend the amount of destruction they are causing. My husband said "I figured you’d be a little hurt and pissed off, but nothing we couldn’t get past". 🙄 Honestly, I didn’t know how badly being cheated on would feel. I knew I’d be pissed, but never fathomed the devastation it would cause in me. This is not any sort of defense of cheaters, but I do believe some might stop themselves if they could see the impact of their actions ahead of time. Obviously those who break NC and repeat offenders do not fall into this category.

My husband said "I figured you’d be a little hurt and pissed off, but nothing we couldn’t get past". Honestly, I didn’t know how badly being cheated on would feel. I knew I’d be pissed, but never fathomed the devastation it would cause in me. This is not any sort of defense of cheaters, but I do believe some might stop themselves if they could see the impact of their actions ahead of time.

Totally get it. Here we are, putting this thing under the microscope of logic and "proper" emotion, but that isn’t how it was lived out. We’re applying reason (realness) to a fucked up thrill ride (fakeness). Like a court of law unraveling a crime syndicate.
I do agree that people don’t know how bad the pain is from infidelity, like people think it’s going to be a 5 out of 10 and it’s more like a 9 or 10. My mom got cheated on and I still didn’t know. But I don’t think education is enough to stop them. Gamblers know they can lose everything, they know what is at stake, but they still do it and lose everything. Humans are just not THAT rational. We act out in ways that make us feel good in the moment and fuck us over for the future, even if the risk is staring us in the face. It’s sad but true. I don’t personally think my wife is a horrible person, at least not more horrible than the rest of the species.

Now after the affair, if you want to R, we have NO idea which way is truly up. Which is 'real life'.

Gently, how is someone who wants to D in a better position? In fact, how is anybody in a better position? We never knows everything, and we can't predict the future.

You gave us your vows with all your sincerity before, but then you said those very same words to someone else. How the hell can we possibly believe you now. This, from my vantage, becomes even harder to believe if:

(a) We are a much better long-term prospect than AP e.g., higher income everyone likes us i.e., you want to be with uS because we are the Safe Choice.

(b) The AP turns out to not want a relationShip after DDay after all (which wouldn't that make the BS the 2nd choice--it looks even more that you'd really be with AP had he wanted to).

Also gently:

The vows aren't the same, generally not the same words, not given in the same public environment, etc.

The fact that WSes always affair down and don't realize it supports the idea that As are fantasies, doesn't it? (I'm not arguing for the sake of arguing here. The terminology one uses with regard to the A affects how one heals. IMO, some terminology accelerate healing; some does the opposite.

******

I think questions that come from comparisons between BS and ap - like a) above - are based on the BS's belief that something is wrong with the BS and/or that the BS did or didn't do something that made the WS cheat.

Suppose that's not the case, though. Suppose the assertions you read here that the WS cheats for their own reasons, because of their own issues are true?

Hell, even when the WS says they cheated in part because they 'didn't think their BS still loves them,' the issue is most probably that the WS can't/won't take love in anyway.

I know there must be exceptions, but I'm satisfied with the rule that states: M infidelity is the WS's failure, not the BS's.

That's why the WS's blindness to what the BS experience's doesn't surprise or - within the context of cheating - horrify me. The WS is in their own little, make-believe world in which the BS is an obstacle. Of course 'our (wayward) partners and their illicit partners can so callously ignore the damage they are doing and look us in the eyes the whole time....'

*****

A WS who leaves may tell themself they're leaving for greener grass, but the BS needs to realize the WS is not fully in touch with reality. That WS is betting their future on a person who accepts cheating and who is probably a cheater themself. Even a non-attached ap aids someone else's cheating. The qualities of the abandoned BS are irrelevant. The WS who leaves is just making more bad choices on top of the bad choices in the A.

Being betrayed and/or abandoned shakes BSes to their cores. A BS probably uses every insulting message they've ever heard to attack themself with their self-talk. A BS probably invents new insults and keeps attacking themself 24 hours a day. I sure did.

I know that being betrayed hurts. I know that being abandoned hurts. But the cheater chose to cheat for their own reasons. The deserter deserts for their own reasons.

If one doesn't or can't absolve themself of responsibility for the A or the abandonment, IMO that makes healing virtually impossible. And if self-talk is the problem, the solution is to change the self-talk.

Believe me, seeing the absurdity and unreality of what goes on in an A doesn't reduce pain caused by being betrayed, but it can make it easier to heal the pain. Reducing your attack-self self-talk will make it easier to evaluate your own wants and your WS's capabilities. Changing self-talk from attack-self to nurture- and support-self will increase the chances of a success, whether the solution is stay or go.

Bottom line: I believe seeing the unreality of the A helps heal. If it doesn't do that for you, don't use it.

But if your don't see both the reality and the unreality of As, you're missing part of the picture, and I urge you to figure out how to see both sides.

*****

"I figured you’d be a little hurt and pissed off, but nothing we couldn’t get past".

That's the message sent out by the media. I, too, was shocked that the pain was so excruciating and long-lasting.

[This message edited by SI Staff at 5:40 PM, Tuesday, December 19th]

Gently, how is someone who wants to D in a better position? In fact, how is anybody in a better position? We never knows everything, and we can't predict the future.

This seems to me to be arguing for the sake of arguing. At least the BS will be free of the WS and their lying. I mean, they still will have all this pain to process, but moving on to something better e.g., no more cheating spouse is indeed a good thing.

My views are not changing and they are not open to change. I don't think R is a good bet for most BSs and I won't hide that fact. I will however watch my tone to stay on the right side of the rules here.

[This message edited by WontBeFooledAgai at 12:28 AM, Wednesday, December 20th]

My views are not changing and they are not open to change.

Do you have any insight into why this is? What would you think of me if I made that statement in one of my threads? Would you want to keep talking with me? There is no shame in changing one’s mind. I’m not saying you are wrong and need to change your mind, just maybe asking what is the point of coming on a forum like this if not to converse, influence and be influenced?

@InkHulk, you have been extremely consistent in wanting R. This despite.....some opinions expressed to the contrary. That is absolutely fine by me--it absolutely doesn't matter anyway, as this is YOUR life. In any event I support you in your decision, either way.

I am allowed to feel that R is a bad choice for most people, just as you are allowed to insist that R is right for you personally 'no matter what' (and I respect that you indeed can, even if I vociferously disagree with you).

[This message edited by WontBeFooledAgai at 10:16 PM, Tuesday, December 19th]

@InkHulk, you have been extremely consistent in wanting R.

Sure, aside from immense uncertainty in the beginning and a two month separation that came very close to ending it. But yes, I’ve found a desire to R.

I am allowed to feel that R is a bad choice for most people, just as you are allowed to insist that R is right for you personally 'no matter what' (and I respect that you indeed can, even if I vociferously disagree with you).

I didn’t say you can’t feel however you feel. I asked you why you are stating that you aren’t open to change of beliefs. If you thought you couldn’t get to me, couldn’t influence me at all, or the people who read along, would you find it worth the time to write all you do here? "Take what you can use, leave the rest behind", right? But if you aren’t open to change, you are leaving it all. And maybe you don’t see yourself in the learning mode in your infidelity journey anymore, but I gotta say that there is a lot to learn from the people around here, I think we all would do well to listen and consider what we hear. I personally have learned so much that way in my time here.

I agree that we should learn from others on here, but I also feel that there are some things we should stick to our guns on as well.

And on that note, seeing so many threads on here by so many sad sad men trying to R with their WWs has informed me that my take that R is a bad idea for most men, is quite solid indeed, I must note.

[This message edited by WontBeFooledAgai at 11:20 PM, Tuesday, December 19th]

I agree that we should learn from others on here, but I also feel that there are some things we should stick to our guns on as well.

And on that note, seeing so many threads on here by so many sad sad men trying to R with their WWs has informed me that my take that R is a bad idea for most men, is quite solid indeed, I must note.

That’s fair. You aren’t going to be able to single handedly internet argue me into a divorce, my own life experiences are going to dictate that. I just hope you might begin to integrate the other data points here, that R is a viable path that leads to good outcomes for some people. Once D-day hits, it’s a scramble for survival, and there are casualties no matter which exit door you attempt. But there are survivors too. You are talking to many of them on this thread.

Gently, how is someone who wants to D in a better position? In fact, how is anybody in a better position? We never know everything, and we can't predict the future.

This seems to me to be arguing for the sake of arguing. At least the BS will be free of the WS and their lying. I mean, they still will have all this pain to process, but moving on to something better e.g., no more cheating spouse is indeed a good thing.

The thing is, I did move on to something better - with my WS. There's no way to know what the statistics are regarding authenticity in R. All I know is that good things happened for me, and I will urge any BS to give it a shot if that's what they want to do and if the WS is willing to own their stuff and address their issues. Not every WS is capable of growth and change, but some are. Mine was. Is.

Of course, there's no way to know if my life would have been better had I divorced him. Maybe I wouldn't still be talking about infidelity all these years later due to PTSD, but maybe I would. Maybe it would have happened again with a new person. What I do know is that reconciling meant that I got to keep my family intact, I got to keep my beloved extended family, I didn't have to stress about being financially insecure, and, above all, I got a chance for an authentic, transparent, fun, happy life with my chosen person. There's something to be said for gluing a precious broken thing back together instead of throwing it away. Some broken things can't be salvaged, but some can.

But there are survivors too. You are talking to many of them on this thread.

I know the following will piss people off. That's ok.

Are we? Are we talking to survivors in reconciliation? Or have they just not had another dday yet?

How many members have returned with another dday? So very many. Recently, yes. But just over the last year? A few dozen,maybe?

Look..reconciliation is a huge gamble. Anyone who thinks otherwise is fooling themselves. It means you need to believe in someone who has already shown themselves to be extraordinarily untrustworthy,manipulative,etc. Sometimes they don't cheat again. Sometimes they do.

I am jaded. Damn right. I no longer believe in reconciliation. AND THAT'S OK. People on here get very offended when members don't think R is a viable,good option. As if it somehow affects their situation. It doesn't. But it is a valid belief. Just as valid as those who do believe in reconciliation. Yet, often,members will shame those of us who don't think reconciliation is a good idea. It takes away OUR safe place to share our feelings. It's unfair.

I do believe there are ws who will never cheat again. I do believe we have a handful of them here,on SI. Ws who were truly,truly remorseful. Ws who did the work,they weren't just compliant. And I do believe they are unicorns.

This is my opinion, based off of my experience. I don't need to be shamed for having these feelings. Try being a bs who had a truly remorseful ws,who did the work,and they cheat again. Instead of rushing in to shame someone in my situation for having the feelings we have,maybe try and put yourself in our position. But,many won't. It's too scary. Too painful. And, of you think if you were in my situation, and you wouldn't have these feelings,I will remind you that you probably felt,before infidelity, that you would leave if they cheated..yet you didn't. Because you never know what you will do,or how you will feel until you are in that situation.

I will continue to tell new bs what they need to require if they want to attempt reconciliation. Because that's what they want. Whether I believe in true R anymore isn't relevant.

I just hope you might begin to integrate the other data points here, that R is a viable path that leads to good outcomes for some people.

Based on my own experience, and from reading likely thousands of stories over many years, my summary would be, at least in the case of a BH with an adulterous wife, that while R is *sometimes* possible, it seems to be exceptionally rare that the betrayer has it in them to get to full honesty, full accountability, full remorse, and simultaneously the BH is able to get past the physical acts, etc. Yes, of course it can and does happen, but again, it’s quite rare when you look at a span of 5+ years. WWTL’s story comes to mind. In my opinion, we don’t serve the betrayed well by tossing out that "if they simply decide to R then that’s great, and that’s what’s you can just as easily do as a D". We serve them better by giving them the sobering truth. As we all know, so many betrayed spouses have an instinct to R to get them "back to normal" asap, and we can see the adulterous spouse so often is in no way R material.

I think we do them better by helping them understand that while *true* R does successfully happen, it’s (by far) the exception and not the rule. I’ve also noticed that a number of successful R’s in this situation are where the BH had *something* going on that he acknowledges was a big problem in the M, and while not blaming her adultery on such things, he does realize that improvements on his part will positively implant the NEW marriage moving forward. Things like when the BH had untreated PTSD, alcohol/drug use, etc. and he also addresses that.

Now after the affair, if you want to R, we have NO idea which way is truly up. Which is 'real life'.

I read that to be about uncertainty, and I don't think that anything one does can reduce uncertainty about one's future or about one's confidence that they know which way is up.

My comment was about the human condition, and I apologize for not making that crystal clear.

[This message edited by SI Staff at 4:05 PM, Wednesday, December 20th]

People on here get very offended when members don't think R is a viable,good option.

I’ve never been offended that a number of people on SI are completely unable to support my R.

Anyone who has ever told me to run or don’t do it — they all were looking to protect me and hope that I don’t get hurt anymore.

The D perspective only members who stay and post their perspective are in it to help.

So again, I am never offended nor will be offended by people trying to help.

However, my happiness in R does seem to bother some people.

I’m not a unicorn, I’m real. My life is real.

We tend to find a level of confirmation bias to back the choices we make.

SI is founded by an R couple. The R section is full of people who found a way to rebuild their M.

I find a number of repeat offender stories are about a WS who never did the work, who white knuckled their way through — but not all. Some WS just aren’t capable of change.

Every person here is only ever an EXPERT ON THEIR PATH.

I get it. Unless you experience a happy R, you have zero clue what my life is, but some of you are willing to assume the worst about it.

I know R couples here, and a bunch more who were never members here. Infidelity has hit half of my family and friends. I see happily divorced people, happily R people everyday. I also see unhappy R people and…..get ready for this….unhappy divorced people. My guess is most of us know people who are divorced and unhappy.

Ultimately, I am always happy when people get clear of infidelity, no matter which path they take.

R is as difficult or more difficult, but it is a real choice.

I’m grateful for ALL the members of SI, because each experience here, each brave soul sharing their stories helped me make an INFORMED choice.

Even the people who mocked me or continue to mock my choice — they all were simply trying to help.

Stick to our guns, indeed. My M is as strong as it has ever been, and we’re about to take two years off to travel and celebrate our family.

HellFire said:

I know the following will piss people off. That's ok.

Are we? Are we talking to survivors in reconciliation? Or have they just not had another dday yet?

How many members have returned with another dday? So very many. Recently, yes. But just over the last year? A few dozen,maybe?

Look..reconciliation is a huge gamble. Anyone who thinks otherwise is fooling themselves. It means you need to believe in someone who has already shown themselves to be extraordinarily untrustworthy,manipulative,etc. Sometimes they don't cheat again. Sometimes they do.

I have pondered the word "survivor" as related to Infidelity. Will I truly "survive" it? What does that really even mean?

One can "survive" a plane crash, auto accident or horrible disease. But they are often left permanently disabled, with horrific scars. THAT’s how I feel on any given day. I may well survive this all but what’s the cost? Then am I "living" or just "surviving"? I’m still pondering that particular question.

I am trying for R but wishing every day I had just gone straight to D. I have zero worry my WW will cheat again for many reasons. Her last Infidelity was 18+ years ago. But is "not cheating" good enough? As we have dug into her "whys" and all the contributing factors that went into to the cheating, most are still present (selfish, no empathy, lying is her first instinct, intimacy avoidant, etc.). Even without all the cheating, this isn’t a person who is "life partner" material. Now she has cancer and I am committed to staying with her as she battles and hopefully recovers. Then what? TBD. But is "surviving" going to be enough? I truly don’t know.

I agree with many on here who say each person’s journey is their own. It is truly heartbreaking to see how many BS are "back again". How many are struck with infidelity again and just go straight to D and we never even hear from them again? SI didn’t even exist 37 years ago when I caught my WW in an EA. But if it had, I would have been a "back again" myself. Although she agreed to go NC with her EAP, she didn’t and it went physical. She had several more affairs after that one. So my first post on here after finding out the truth many years later was really a "multiple back again" too.

I believe people can change, people can do the work, R is good for some. I agree with HellFire that those people seem VERY rare. D seems the "easier" path to me. If I had the Time Machine, I would have D’d my wife when I caught her in the EA. Maybe I could have found a true life partner. Maybe not. But I wouldn’t have been in Infidelity for 2/3 of my life with this person. Even when I didn’t know it was going on, it had infected my marriage.

The sense of "you must do this" on this site at times also discourages me. Many people truly offer "here’s what did or didn’t work for me". I don’t like the "only one true path" approach some subscribe to. Many times I have gone "with the consensus" only to regret it. Conversely, I have "stood alone" and been immensely thankful I "held the line". These are all unique journeys and I truly believe there is no "right or wrong" when making individual choices of the heart. Things may or may not work out the way you intended or wanted, it doesn’t mean you are wrong to try.

As I read some "definitive/self righteous" statements on here, I think of the movie "Hunter Killer". The captain of a US sub trusts a Russian defecter to navigate the sub through a treacherous mined passage. The Executive Officer adamantly opposed this approach almost to the brink of mutiny. After the sub navigates the passage the Captain asks the obviously disappointed XO "would you rather be right or alive"…..

Share wisdom more, pre-judgement less.

WOES:

I have taken this into consideration and admitted as much on that thread.

Wait, where. I guess you admitted it here though so it doesn't really matter.

I will be using the word authentic going forward and I would be happy to elaborate in future posts vs using short hand.

Thank you. I would say though that during your affair though, you (generic 'you' not meaning to be coming hard on you personally) WERE being authentic to your AP in your declarations of attraction admiration trust and love. And you were being authentic in that during your affair you loved your AP but not your BS. Which is such a huge reason why being betrayed hurts so much. It is EVERYONE ELSE whom not being authentic to. Please do not let these points be lost, is what I would ask.

From your vantage point, we had an impossible hill to climb. Yet, here we are. We did not rug sweep. Nothing has been minimized. It took years to process. We went through Hell and came back out stronger.

So perhaps we can come to an accord. I will be more thoughtful about word choice. I hope for you to be more thoughtful and open minded about those that are trying to reconcile.

I am sorry but I have to stand by what I have written. I am happy that you and your husband are happy. I salute the work you did in personally and in your marriage. BUT I STILL would not have recommended a BS attempt to take the (extremely costly and risky) journey. Just because someone played the lottery with their life savings and ended up winning, does NOT make that a viable financial strategy.

ETA: I will elaborate. A BS has NO GUARANTEE that their spouse will do the work sufficiently, and what is the percentage of WS who will do the work? What if a BS is with a WS who is not doing the work sufficiently, will the BS be able to cut their 'sunken costs' and leave.

But, I do respect that people do want to take different paths out of infidelity. And going forward I will make sure my tone is respectful.

[This message edited by WontBeFooledAgai at 7:53 PM, Thursday, December 21st]

WBFA -

If you live to be one-thousand years old, I can’t imagine you ever suggesting someone choose R.

Based on what happened with your experience, it makes perfect sense.

Just because someone played the lottery and ended up winning, does NOT make that a viable financial strategy.

Not a great analogy here though — no one who has ever been cheated on has WON anything.

My R is a choice, and took a tremendous amount of work, NO luck involved at all.

I do agree R and every other relationship where we choose to be vulnerable is a risk. They don’t call it a leap of faith for nothing.

Risk also applies to every new beginning for those who choose D.

I think the key to recovering from the Hell of infidelity is Universal, and that’s belief in oneself first — be it R or D.

Once we ALL know we are going to be fine single or otherwise, that’s the other side of the horror show.

I didn’t win the lotto, I will always hate the A, and I’m also glad I gave my wife the opportunity to do better and be better. That’s it.

If it goes south, I’m golden. I will always know I went above and beyond, and I’ll never be defined by my wife’s shitty choices, wherever and however I end up.