SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

Jason,

My gut says there are elements of fantasy in every relationship. IMO, we can't possibly know everything about another person, so we fill in the blanks with guesses. Some of those guesses are bound to be wrong. We almost definitely entertained fantasies about our Ms and our WSes' fidelity before d-day.

Ink,

IMO, we're a bunch of people being as real as we can be. That goes a long way toward making SI something that's not fantasy.

OTOH, I have images in my mind of many of the women on SI. The images are mostly some variation of my W at age 20-22. I've met some women members of SI, and I know my image is a fantasy.

InkHulk said:

Had a thought while driving this morning: I said in the wake of D-day 2 that my wife had read that thread and called you all my "affair partner". I wonder if she felt a similarity in that we all have a "fake" relationship in some of the ways we are discussing here. We certainly aren’t sharing chores and mortgages. We have the mask of internet anonymity and can choose to put forward a persona that we like.

That is a very interesting perspective. I remember reading about your WW calling SI "your APs". I remember many folks took great offense at that. I tried to think about it objectively. Are there people on here seeking "attention and validation"? Could be. I could definitely see how your wife reading one of your threads about how terrible she is (in the opinion of others on here) and how "great good ole’ IH is" (and she’s thinking "this isn’t the IH I live with every day"). You even cautioned people when lambasting your wife and praising you that you have "done things that creep right up to the edge of infidelity in the realm of bad things" and that people here "see the IH you present". That is food for thought.

On the other end of the spectrum, many of us have shared things we have shared with no one "in the real world" save our spouses and maybe our therapists. I have built some pretty strong relationships through PMs beyond the posts. Is that not "real"? I’m not so sure I would go so far as to say SI is a "fake" relationship. but maybe a "manufactured/controlled reality" if that make sense…..

[This message edited by ImaChump at 5:23 PM, Monday, December 11th]

I didn’t get the "It’s not real" excuse, but did get the cousin comment to this line which is "this is not who I am" which was equally infuriating. If it wasn’t you, then who was it. She did have a point that this behavior never appeared in our 25 year marriage, or after she was caught, but for those weeks, it was exactly who you were.

Her affair was a mixture of fantasy and desperation. Still it was real, and so were the consequences and destruction. To say it’s not real is crap. The reasons and mindset do not change the facts

We have the mask of internet anonymity and can choose to put forward a persona that we like.

I don’t think people fake the pain they are in or even fake old pain they experienced first hand.

I think humans can fake a lot of things, but not pain or depression — at least are not able to sustain that mask. That includes SI. Which for me is why SI has been so helpful, because the members here may be projections of their limited experiences, but they are very real experiences.

In this thread for example, I feel the pain and anger that our original poster STILL experiences long after the fact. I don’t see him or anyone else trying to be something fake in order to promote what happened to them.

I needed the very real experiences from people who told me their path - be it instant divorce or painfully delayed divorce, false R, rugsweeping, to R that worked out.

To clarify, I think all message boards get new members who are not who they say they are, that happens, but those stories tend to sound like stories after a time and not experiences. I’m just saying that when I read someone saying they feel like they still have hole in their chest because their heart hurts so much — I can relate to that — and I believe it.

What your wife read in that dday 2 thread was a whole bunch of people who KNEW your pain and supported you with their experiences. Maybe those who travelled the D route were ‘louder’ or more mean about it, but they all wanted the same thing: for you to get clear of infidelity.

When a WS tries to dismiss all of that real SI pain, be it yours or other people’s pain who have experienced infidelity — that’s fear talking.

The funny thing is, infidelity is about validation. I don’t think your dday2 post was posted to obtain validation. You vented, you made some decisions based on new information is all.

Ultimately, has there ever been a thread here where everyone universally agreed with the feelings in ANY of our posts? We always get people who agree, disagree or sometimes just ‘hear you out’. It’s never rubber stamped with validation, as with what happens in A with an AP.

[This message edited by Oldwounds at 5:49 PM, Monday, December 11th]

I hear the "the A's not real" comment all the time, and I equal parts get it and find it infuriating. I understand that my WH is saying he couldn't be in a real relationship with these mistresses, that there was no need to find out if they had a real connection or think about meeting their families, etc., but it feels more like he's saying it was this magical, amazing, dream-come-true experience that I've never provided him.

Whenever I say something was a fantasy, it means I had a great time and remember the moment fondly. It's hard to then equate "fantasy" with shame and pain, like he's making it out to be.

I wish there were another way to phrase it. If anyone has a suggestion, I'm open to adding it to his vernacular.

[This message edited by Revenger at 6:00 PM, Monday, December 11th]

I want to be clear, I have not intentionally misled or misrepresented myself. For my own personal reasons, I’ve kept some information back, but I’ve shared more than most and it’s been honest. I think this community sniffs out fakes really quickly because we know and feel what authentic experiences of infidelity are. I’ve brought my own experience here both intellectually and emotionally precisely because of the shared experience we all unfortunately have. Do I enjoy the "likes" here? Sure. But I come back more for the guidance and empathy, which I think is healthy and appropriate.

All that said, I have a friend that I’ve let know about SI, it was the only way I could think to remotely bring her up to speed on my inner world. She read a couple threads, and her feedback is that InkHulk is a part of me, but not everything, and that has stuck with me. That makes sense though, that my best friends know me better than y’all.

Bringing it back to the original topic, the "Realness" that we expect out of a marriage or committed relationship is a really high bar. I think this discussion is pulling out a lot of unspoken expectations that we have for it. An A doesn’t acheive those heights, so it is a very shitty trade to make, a huge downgrade. Reminds me of a favorite CS Lewis quote.

We are half-hearted creatures, fooling about with drink and sex and ambition when infinite joy is offered us, like an ignorant child who wants to go on making mud pies in a slum because he cannot imagine what is meant by the offer of a holiday at the sea. We are far too easily pleased.

She read a couple threads, and her feedback is that InkHulk is a part of me, but not everything, and that has stuck with me. That makes sense though, that my best friends know me better than y’all.

IH, it’s good that you have friends who know the "whole you". I didn’t mean to imply you were "falsely representing yourself". Just we see "a specific part of you" and you control what we see. I think you confirmed this.

Also, it is great that you have friends who "know the whole you". For many of us, (me included) our closest friends, children and siblings (and parents if they are alive) may not know the part of us impacted by Infidelity (other than symptoms they may not understand) AT ALL. So even if this is a "manufactured reality" as my post suggested, it is no less "real" or less value add than the "real world" and certainly not "fake".

This is one of the few places I can find others who check every single box I check in the realm of Infidelity. My wife and therapist can never offer me the level of empathy someone who has lived this as me can. THAT is as "real" as it gets for me even if it is only a "part" of me they know. It is the part I need the most support and understanding with.

Also, it is great that you have friends who "know the whole you". For many of us, (me included) our closest friends, children and siblings (and parents if they are alive) may not know the part of us impacted by Infidelity (other than symptoms they may not understand) AT ALL. So even if this is a "manufactured reality" as my post suggested, it is no less "real" or less value add than the "real world" and certainly not "fake".

I’m going to assume WBFA is good with a little t/j, what with his desire for a long thread and all.

I also had no intent of disparaging SI, I hope that is clear to everyone. I don’t have any face to face relationships where they understand my pain. I’m not close enough with my mother to commiserate, and I think she just buried it all anyway and I’d harm her by bringing it all back up for her. Thank God most of my loved one’s are unscathed by this, but I don’t know what I would have done without SI. So is there a lesson to be learned here about what "real" and "fake" relationships are? Or is this reinforcing what many are saying that those are just to imprecise and vague to be helpful and we need to say much more about what we mean?
I believe my marriage was imperfect but of great value. I am deeply saddened to know that it was traded for "mud pies". There does seem to be a little bit of solace when I look at it from that angle just how absurd the trade was, and in recognizing the absurdity of trading the slum for the holiday at the sea, it helps me to realize that it was never a trade of value for value and I lost. It was heart sickness and utter foolishness and I was just collateral damage.

I also had no intent of disparaging SI, I hope that is clear to everyone.

I saw zero disparagement in your post — I was responding to the idea your wife posed that SI is a metaphor AP for the betrayed.

SI is a terrible escapist place to run to. I’m not much of a drinker these days, but a bar would be more escapist than SI (reading about tragedy all the time here as new hurt humans arrive every week).

As to the bad trades/mud pies — I agree. When they risk it all for not much or nothing at all.

I remember reading about your WW calling SI "your APs".

Any WS doing that is supremely minimizing by declaring a false equivalency. I sure hoped the BS pushed back HARD on that.

I wish there were another way to phrase it.

Would it help if the statement, 'Although the A was real, the relationship between WS and ap was fake, based on lies the aps told themselves.'

Any WS doing that is supremely minimizing by declaring a false equivalency. I sure hoped the BS pushed back HARD on that.

My wife was in the mindset of an animal caught in a trap at the time. And I separated from her for two months after that. Not specifically for that comment, that was not at the top of my list of problems at the time. But it was a strange comment.

I think quite a few affairs described here at SI had a strong element of lived fantasy to them. At the same time, the WS has to acknowledge that the person they were acting as in the A comes fully from inside them. Fantasy or not, it is a part of them they were acting out.

The two are not mutually exclusive. And I believe we all have that thing inside us for one temptation or another. Of course not everyone succumbs to it.

Just to respond to a couple of things. I already wrote most of my thoughts under cedarwoods thread so I am not going to repeat all that here.

Emergent- I do not think at the time I thought I was having an exit affair. I can see it in hindsight beyond a shadow of a doubt, but the level of denial and justification I had would never make sense to most. I took it day by day with no plan of what the next hour, day, or week would look like. But what you said otherwise on your posts I felt were dead on. I think the role I was playing was a huge factor and believing he was buying into it was key.

To the OP:

Feelings are unreliable things based on what thoughts feed into it. Thoughts aren’t always truth, and therefore feelings are not always reliable. My experience is I did a lot of projecting into the AP what I wanted to see. In that way, the connection was made up, not based in reality. The feelings and behavior were based on ridiculous stories in my head.

Of course none of this justifies my behaviors or the devastation of my husband, myself, or the destruction of our marriage. I was very very wrong in what I was telling myself and much of it was unbelievably delusional. I am not sure one could even reconcile without the evolution of how they view the affair.

Having hindsight doesn’t mean it wasn't real, but you should see the erroneous ways of thinking that fed into all of it. Then you must trace where that thinking evolved from, the patterns you have that aren’t healthy, and systematically working on them. I can say the feelings were based on fantasy, but of course my disgusting actions were all too real.

The work of a ws is to become reliable no matter how they are feeling. To live in truth and integrity. To have a moral code that unbendable, and develop the courage to show up authentically, vulnerably, consciously. To improve their relationship with themselves so that they can fill their own voids and not allow their insecurities or shame to control them.

I always say a ws is often overly selfish or selfless, but the root of that imbalance is the same: lack of self love. They don't feel worthy of love so they either selfishly demand proof from others or they overly people please because they think they must earn love.

The fundamental work they must do is to learn to give themselves love, compassion, and respect so they have it to give others. You cant give what you don't have.

I believe you said your husband has NPD. As you know, a narcissist is unlikely to be capable of the evolution needed. So it would make sense that statements in the forum that could possibly be used to minimize are 100 percent of the time cop-outs in your home. I am sorry this has been your experience, you do not deserve that.

I can totally see how affairs can be considered a phantasy in a way. Discussing this matter kind of makes me think of the movie True Lies which cleverly integrated this concept into part of the storyline. Observing the effects my my wife’s affair on her it is clear that in some ways she had lost touch with reality. It is also worth considering that affairs in many ways are not complete relationships. Like with my wife’s affair, the AP would probably never have fulfilled all her needs, and I’m rather convinced that if he could have and was willing to do so my wife would have left to be with the AP. At any rate I won’t bother rambling on about this further and if someone tries to minimize an affair in this way you can point out that a phantasy can be incredibly destructive. (See results of serial killers acting out phantasy) As with ‘fake’ stuff the same holds true fake things can be both valuable and also incredibly destructive. Interested in going on a flight on that Boeing 787 with a counterfeit fuel pump?

I’ve also read about how projections come into play with affairs and I’ve gotta tell some of what I’ve read is mind blowing. When you start getting into affairs and powerful projections and introjecting of said projections by various parties involved crazy can be the result.

Mine too, used a lot of the same language he used when we were first together, bought them jewelry just like when we were dating. It's insulting, degrading and makes a mockery of our marriage. His 1st wife left him for a guy who worked for him 5 months after they married. She danced with the other guy at the wedding more than the groom, so he knows the hurt and humiliation. It is real, not fantasy and it really hurts.

@hikingout:

We have posted on many of the same threads. And as I have said many times on here, long-winded explanations on wayward behaviour just make my head hurt.

Anyway it is extremely hard for me to see an affair as a lack of self-love. Self-respect yes perhaps, but it often seems to me to not be about a lack of self-love. IF anything, it is closer to THE OPPOSITE. I mean, when you love someone, you prioritize their needs and wants, right? Well, when it comes to WSs, they prioritized their needs, to the point where they allowed themselves to get (what they thought were at least) their needs met, even if it would severely hurt someone else whom they gave their vows to. So yeah, closer to the opposite indeed. I think an affair is instead about TOO MUCH of a sense of SELF-ENTITLEMENT.

I really feel that an affair is like any other relationship that starts off is monkey-branching, except the devastation is much greater and the actors in the affair are showing an extreme level of disregard for those around them. Every relationship starts out with idealizing and fantasy, and feelings that may or may not match up with reality. (Maybethat is true--feelings and reality not matching--even when it comes to MOST relationships in fact, as most relationships end with at least one partner disillusioned.) Someone cheats on their primary partner because they are more attracted to the AP, and they actually let themselves go there. Just like in dating, when someone decides to date someone else--it is because they are more attracted to the other person. The difference being that it is more logistically difficult to get a divorce, so people take the path of least resistance and cheat on the side.

Anyway yes, no smoke and mirrors, instead so very very real. Sad but true.

[This message edited by WontBeFooledAgai at 10:11 PM, Thursday, December 14th]

I think an affair is instead about TOO MUCH of a sense of SELF-ENTITLEMENT.

I agree.

Reading here over the years, I've noticed a pattern. The majority of the BS talk about how their WS,before the affair,was the selfish one in the marriage. The one who gave the least. The one who wasn't as involved with the kids. The one who did what they wanted,whether that be a career that demanded a lot of traveling,or a hobby,while leaving the BS at home, to work,run the house,and raise the kids.The one who spent more money on things they wanted. The one who put themselves first.

I do believe some WS have a low self esteem,and don't value themselves.

But,I think many,many,many of them want what they want,and they took the opportunity to get it, despite anyone else around them.

[This message edited by HellFire at 9:31 PM, Thursday, December 14th]

Reading here over the years, I've noticed a pattern. The majority of the BS talk about how their WS,before the affair,was the selfish one in the marriage. The one who gave the least. The one who wasn't as involved with the kids. The one who did what they wanted,whether that be a career that demanded a lot of traveling,or a hobby,while leaving the BS at home, to work,run the house,and raise the kids.The one who spent more money on things they wanted. The one who put themselves first.

Both can be true, that they are selfish and lacking of self love. All you have to do to reconcile those two things is realize that they are doing those selfish things not because they think so much of themselves and they think they deserve it, but instead because their inner life is so bleak and they are trying to fill the void. Hiking Out’s description rings very true in my ears.

Edit to add: the majority of stories I’ve read, the wayward is not proud of what they have done, as one would be if they thought they were claiming something they deserve, like cashing a paycheck. Most of the time, they are horrified and ashamed and desperate to keep things under wraps. That does not sound like an entitled person to me.

Any wayward that is proud of what they have done, obviously not an R candidate. One who can “wake up”, there is potential there, IMO.

[This message edited by InkHulk at 10:20 PM, Thursday, December 14th]

Yeah..I can't do that, IH. If you can, that's fine. I see it completely different.

And that's ok.