SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

do you really think it's true across the board?

No,I don't.

I think there are many different interpretations of "not real," and "fantasy." As evident by all of the posts on this thread.

Which is why I think IH'S suggestion was excellent.

I think we’d all probably be better off if we dropped that phrase and used the long hand of what we really mean

[This message edited by HellFire at 9:52 PM, Thursday, December 7th]

Stillconfused, I definitely wasn't saying you should feel bad at the OW. I said psychopathic because the way you described the affair made it seem as if he was partly getting off on the idea of simultaneously romancing her while planning to fire/reassign her and because he recklessly put himself in a legally precarious position. Even if he was single at the time, his behavior would still be gross and colossally stupid.

And that's the end of my threadjack.

gross and colossally stupid.

Totally agree!!

T/j done for me too

But here's the thing, part 1: I found it natural to see the relationship as fake. I found it natural to see my W's A as a symptom of 'heart-sickness'. That was basic to my wanting R. I strongly recommend that you don't try to tell me I was wrong - I was here with her; you weren't.

Good, whatever works for you....but that absolutely would not have worked for me. And I think more to the point, YOU came to that conclusion yourself, it wasn't your WS trying to sell it to you (?)

Yes I agree that "should" is a very imprecise verb...I would replace "I don't think a BS should get past" with "I don't think it is in the best interests of the BS to get past"

@Emergent, yes indeed, my WP's affair was an exit one...which led to a marriage that lasted several years (to the best of my knowledge). It was fully real in every sense of the word. I didn't find out until the relationship was over--I wasn't even aware of the signs at the time, even though looking back at it now the signs that I was getting, were classic signs of an affair.

I have seen a lot of long-term relationships in general start with what is known as monkey-branching...in many-cases where there was still quite a grasp on the first branch while the second branch was being grabbed!

[This message edited by WontBeFooledAgai at 10:36 PM, Thursday, December 7th]

Good, whatever works for you....but that absolutely would not have worked for me.

Exactly. I've never seen R as a 'shit sandwich.' If I had, I wouldn't have chosen R. If it is to you, my reco would be to D or otherwise split. By the same token, if you see your WS as too deeply flawed to redeem themself, don't even try to see them as 'sick.' I think it's essential not simply to react, but if analysis shows that your best response is to implement your initial reaction, so be it.

And I think more to the point, YOU came to that conclusion yourself, it wasn't your WS trying to sell it to you (?)

Oh, boy - ABSOLUTELY! I've left it as going without saying that I agree that a BS serves themself best by believing nothing the WS says until virtually uninterrupted hundreds of truths have started to earn some trust back.

I believe there's a big difference between an excuse and an explanation. One of the biggest is that an explanation is followed by something to the effect that 'I'm going to do a, b, and c to change.' A WS who actually does a, b, and c gains some credibility as a good candidate for R, IMO. A WS who doesn't follow through gains credibility as a good candidate for D.

I know from a little bit of experience - I was pretty young when I coupled up - that it hurts to be dumped. When a WS leaves for an ap, though, I'm convinced the BS is better off. Aps ALWAYS affair down - WSes A down with aps, and the aps A down with WSes.

Whatever weaknesses the BS may have, I believe that cheating always is due to the WS's issues. I've done several bouts of therapy and one thing I think I've learned is that relationship problems don't get solved by going outside the relationship. A person who even thinks, 'I cheated because I thought you...,' is pretty much always offering an excuse - unless it's followed by 'and I'm going to do these things to change.'

I often think I'm pretty consistent in recommending that BSes chart their own course. With a little luck, I'll start adding something to the effect of, 'and part of that is hearing everything your WS says (as opposed to does) with lots of skepticism.'

a loser, just right place at the right time

It's really hard for someone who has not been a wayward spouse to wrap their mind around the thinking that goes into cheating. My wife actually said she doesn't think she was really thinking when this happened. Just doing things.

There is a good reason to believe that that is true, perhaps not just in her case, more "reacting" but actually thinking in a rational way. They may be lying, sneaking, hiding, etc., but something else is going on in their brains.

Something that doesn't make sense to someone who doesn't do this.

Her behavior at the time was very destructive, family and self-destructive, etc. Who wants to get involved with someone like that?

Somebody else, with the same type of destructive behavior, and as the poster mentioned, a loser. Put two losers into the same place at the same time, who knows what you'll get. My wife was no better than the affair partner. He was no better than her. They were both married, both had children, both floundering in life, both wanting to run away from reality.

His wife, I never met her, went to work every day, primary breadwinner in the household, same on this end. We did not have time for a fantasy life on the side.

I don't usually like to use the term "loser" to describe people, because sometimes people are "lost" and can't figure out their way out of the forest of life.

In my wife's case, the chaos that she grew up in, contributed to that. She actually did not know how to have a real relationship. She wanted to, but she just did not know how to do it. There were four girls in the family, no boys, every single one of them cheated on their spouses. Most of them cheated on their spouses multiple times. All of them had cheated in previous relationships prior to being married as well. My wife and I are the only couple who have been able to maintain our relationship. We have now been married over 30 years, it has not been easy. For the others, it was impossible.

How does it have to do with the term? "loser"? Well, I grew up on the wrong side of the fence, too much work, too little money, by age 25 years I was completely broke financially. I did not have a car, I had never had a car, nor a house. But I did have a college degree at that point, and I did have dreams. The family that I grew up in encouraged that. Many people have probably looked at me and thought "loser", but it's a great lottery, random birth, I came out way ahead of most.

By the time my wife was 25, she had already been married at 19 years of age, divorced, worked her way to college, similar to me, except she didn't have any idea how to live a stable personal life. The lack of that caused everything to be more difficult. She finally graduated from college when she was 27. But she had no clue how to have a stable personal life.

I had another idea around the concept of "fake relationships", not sure if it’s as applicable as StillConfused’s excellent example, but thought I’d put it out there and let it get kicked around if anyone cares to.

My 14 and 12 year old sons have "girlfriends" right now. Our family is mostly of the policy that dating becomes allowable at 16, but at the same time these boys see a girl in school who they have an attraction with. To them, there is a reality to it, they feel a spark, they spend some time together, maybe even hold hands. To the rest of the world it is looked at as cute puppy love. I’m sure there are some 60 year marriages that started with a spark in middle school, so it’s not to say there isn’t something there. But mostly we expect them to experience something for a time and have it run its course, and in that sense it is not a "real" relationship.

There is a part of me that resents my wife chasing this kind of spark again. That I am no longer her "last first kiss". Those feelings are fun and exciting just for the sake of the feelings. But the vow of forsaking all others makes that off limits.

A little bit different take…

I know lots of single women that can "sleep around" (a couple of them I would even call friends).

Outside of what could be moral beliefs, these women have nothing consensually wrong about what they are doing. No prior commitments, no ulterior motives. It’s just sex with a guy they find attractive - and that may or may not develop into a deeper relationship. I don’t consider it fake or fantasy.

That being said, it’s not something I can or want to do. It’s not that I’m afraid doing so will cause me to burn in hell…it’s just simply repulsive to me because of the value that I place on sex. Doing so would feel fake or fraudulent to me - like I was somehow betraying or lying to myself.

Now put this into context IF these women were risking much more - their reputation, their jobs, their relationship with their children, their home, half of everything they have. Simply for something that runs a high probability of being a ONS, a fling, a test drive.

Now the "realness" does become a factor - if only for the sake of what is risked. It’s not just a matter of the realness of what they felt…it’s the realness compared to the risk.

For me - with what I have been experiencing and the hurt that I've been feeling, I agree with WBFA, I think no WS should get away with an affair because "it wasn't real".

The emotions that a partner feels, the brain chemicals, the butterflies in the stomach, the excitement of seeing each other again, pursuing the others' sexual gratification and satisfaction, selflessly giving your time and effort to the other- all of these are part of a relationship. And these are invariably part of an emotional and physical affair like my WW.

The only thing missing is the paper, the legal document of marriage, the facebook status. But everything else that matters, the giving of one's heart to another, being the most vulnerable (you become most vulberable to someone when you have given them the greatest of intimacy - ie sexual intimacy). They are all real.

To say otherwise is like saying that this massive, bleeding hole in my chest is not real.

I think no WS should get away with an affair because "it wasn't real".

I missed that way of reading 'not real', because 'not real' doesn't excuse the A or let a WS get away with anything.

Remember the 3 blind men and the elephant. An A has many aspects. From the POV of authenticity, an A is fake. From the POV of maintaining a relationship, it's a giant problem.

I've written that I saw my W as heart-sick. I have sympathy for that, but what happened in our M after d-day depended very much on my W curing herself and showing she wanted to be with me. I wanted R, but D was a very real possibility. The work my W needed to do was the same whether we R'ed or D'ed.

My W got away with boring sex with a woman I thought was very unattractive. She got away with debasing herself. She got away with failing herself, facing herself, and hating what she saw. I doubt that any one is envious. I'm certainly not.

I distinguish between explanations and excuses. Some people don't make that distinction. We obviously co-exist.

To say otherwise is like saying that this massive, bleeding hole in my chest is not real.

But is it real? Are you literally hemorrhaging as you write this? It sure may feel like you describe, so is it real to you?

Feels aren't always reals. But there is no way that you are exaggerating the pain that you went/are going through.

I'm okay with using the term 'fantasy' to give a quick description of some of the nonsensical thought processes that can go through a wayward's mind. Especially when they are still in limerence. But it's all real. It has happened, or is happening. This isn't some avatar in a video games. They are making real life choices, and real life outcomes follow....for all who are involved.

My W got away with boring sex with a woman I thought was very unattractive. She got away with debasing herself. She got away with failing herself, facing herself, and hating what she saw. I doubt that any one is envious. I'm certainly not.

Those are usually the 'easier' betrayals to get past. It is the giving themselves emotionally and physically to someone else, after they made vows that it would only be to us. It's the vulnerability that was only reserved for us. It was the devaluing of us in our own relationship, and placing someone outside of it in higher regard. It was the shattering of the belief that they could never hurt us like that. Those are the ones that are usually more difficult to work through.

Unfortunately(?), we have to deal with the reality of it all. No fantasy to take our pains away. Dammit.

My WW's most passionate A was online only. She was crazy about this man, sending ILY's and wanted to meet him. Turns out it was a Nigerian romance scam. She got turned off when he kept asking for money for various issues in his life. In reality this was not real, it was a scam, but it's reality for me. She betrayed me and ripped my heart out so yes the betrayal is real, the relationship was not going anywhere. Imagine going to strip club and trying to justify it to your W by saying "all the breasts are fake", no she's not buying it.

This narrative bothered me also.. what I have learned from a lot of reading and therapy is the act of the affair was real but the fantasy part is the actual relationship… its based on falsehood.. an escape ..a fantasy. The brain chemicals that go along with affairs have been described as euphoric, often addictive. The affair life of sneaking around and entering a world of risk and euphoria where everything is all rosy is very much a fantasy to the betrayer. A world where there is no consequence only thrill seeking. A world where no reality takes place like taking out the trash, dealing with stressors of everyday life (such as work, kids, bills, chaos). It allows the betrayer to act out whatever fantasy they have created for themselves. Often times an ‘escape’ from reality. This behaviour is often learned or starts in childhood. It shows up later in life as affairs, gambling, addictions.

I agree .. it is very difficult to comprehend. But this is what I’ve learned and as hard as it is to hear or acknowledge it does help a little

What makes the marriage any less of 'a fantasy' to the WS than the affair? Just because we, as faithful spouses, were in it and we thought the marriage was 'not a fantasy'?

Those are usually the 'easier' betrayals to get past.

Easier in what way?

No fantasy to take our pains away.

Interesting point. I guess it's less painful to see the A as imaginary than it would be to treat the expressions of 'love' as true. OTOH, I believe the odds are that the WS's and ap's thoughts about what they are doing are probably incomplete (dor example, thinking that the A has no impact outside the WS and ap) and therefore incorrect. I think almost all WSes and aps lie to themselves about their As. We have numerous threads about the non-sensical things WSes say. I include lies in the realm of 'fantasy'.

It was the shattering of the belief that they could never hurt us like that.

Yup. Losing an illusion can be - and probably usually is - terribly painful. IMO, we're better off the fewer illusions we maintain.

******

What makes the marriage any less of 'a fantasy' to the WS than the affair? Just because we, as faithful spouses, were in it and we thought the marriage was 'not a fantasy'?

Sometimes, not realizing we're in a fantasy is part of the fantasy. I never thought my partner would cheat. She did. How is that not living a fantasy?

For a BS, realizing that the M was in some ways untruthful - fantasy - is a necessary part of healing.

[This message edited by SI Staff at 8:38 PM, Sunday, December 10th]

I do not see the

Spot on emptyglass.

Sometimes, not realizing we're in a fantasy is part of the fantasy. I never thought my partner would cheat. She did. How is that not living a fantasy?

I am not quite sure what you are saying here. Are you saying believing your spouse will not (would not) have an affair is fantasy? Or that only because the affair happened did your marriage cross over into a fantasy?

Had a thought while driving this morning: I said in the wake of D-day 2 that my wife had read that thread and called you all my "affair partner". I wonder if she felt a similarity in that we all have a "fake" relationship in some of the ways we are discussing here. We certainly aren’t sharing chores and mortgages. We have the mask of internet anonymity and can choose to put forward a persona that we like.