SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

This is a bit of a spin-off from @cedarwoods topic, but I think it is a valuable and useful spin-off. I don't know if the partner who cheated understands how infuriating and nonsensical that sounds. And painful and insulting. It is really Wayward Thinking. Period.

I mean, it is 100% real in that you entered into the relationship UNDER YOUR OWN AGENCY. YOU, yes, you, were the one who DECIDED, IN REAL LIFE to give your love, attention, body, AND trust to someone else instead of me. The feelings you felt were just as intense as the feelings you felt when we were falling in love. You used the very same words and said them with the very same feeling. Now, just because a relationship is toxic just does not change that.

In fact, as far as I am concerned, it even makes the pain WORSE. Not only did you chose someone else instead of me, but to add insult to injury, the someone else you picked over me is a total asshat and on some level you even knew this--or SHOULD HAVE known this--yourself. Damn!

[This message edited by WontBeFooledAgai at 10:41 PM, Wednesday, December 6th]

I don’t think saying the A was fantasy is a way to let the WS off the hook. It wasn’t in my house.

The fantasy is the lies a WS tells themselves, the lies AP and WS tell each other, the massive lies used to create a double life, and of course, the lies told to us to keep us in the dark.

All those lies ARE real. As are all of the actions in an A — all real.

But they create an unreal narrative for justification, when we ALL KNOW, there is no justification for those choices. Infidelity is indefensible.

The fantasy, to me, has meant the giant pile of bullshit required to rationalize poor choices.

I also agree all A’s are actual relationships, but most of them are not sustainable since they tend to be escapes from the responsibilities of ‘normal’ relationships (no bills, no kids, no chores, etc.). Normal relationships don’t hide from the world. If all WS and AP were proud of their actions, they wouldn’t lie about it all.

When I hear a BS say the affair wasn't real, it was fantasy, I think its a form of denial.

To me, a fantasy is something that is a thought..not something that actually happened.

My first thought it...so I guess the sex they had wasn't real as well? I bet it sure feels like it was.

People like to say it wasn't real, they didn't have to deal with raising kids,bills, cleaning up puke,etc.

But..there are lots of relationships that don't involve any of that. Two people can be in a long term relationship, not live together, and not deal with any of that. Do we tell those people who come here,hurting,that their relationship isn't real?

Of course not.

There are all different kinds of relationships. That doesn't mean they aren't real. An affair is a relationship. Toxic. Gross. But a type of relationship.

All affairs are built upon lies. I think that's what folks are talking about when they say that affairs are not real.

Amen to that, WBFA. My ex's affairs didn't happen in Narnia. They happened in the real world, with real people. They impacted my life and destroyed my marriage.

Obviously, I know "affairs are fantasy" usually isn't meant literally; it's intended to express the inauthenticity of the people engaged in them, the delusions that people entertain while in the throes of the affair, and how insulated an affair is from the day-to-day challenges that pressure cook a marriage.

Too often, however, I think the "just a fantasy" phrase is used as a cope by a BS to minimize the emotional importance of the AP to their WS, especially if the WS was more effusive, affectionate, and attracted to or sexually uninhibited with their AP than they were with the BS.

Illicitness and secrecy aside, affairs (other than one-night stands and prostitutes) really aren't that different from any new relationship. I think one of the most difficult shit sandwiches for a reconciling BS to swallow is that their WS did have genuine feelings for the AP that aren't going to magically dissipate over night. Part of the recovery process means allowing the WS to get over their AP, which the WS ought to have the decency to do in private, rather than moping around their BS.

Paradoxically, if a WS had no feelings for their AP and easily discarded them, what does that say about the WS's personality and emotionally depth that they could so quickly and callously cut off someone with whom they had a romantic relationship the second that person's existence became inconvenient?

What's worse... being cheated on because your WS fell in love with someone else or cheated on because your WS is a POS who used another person for sex because they thought they wouldn't get caught?

[This message edited by BluerThanBlue at 7:56 PM, Wednesday, December 6th]

So do I get to troll you on your thread?

#fairsfair

I wish I had something to disagree with you on just for the sake of arguing, but I don’t. I think the phrase of "an affair is a fantasy" is too easily misused to distract from the true horror of what happened. I think we’d all probably be better off if we dropped that phrase and used the long hand of what we really mean when we are saying it.

My husband told me he would be faithful in our vows. Then he wasn't.

Does that mean my marriage wasn't real?

We were all lied to during the affair. Does that mean,during that time,my marriage wasn't real during the affair?

Hmm.

I think you first have to buy into the notion that "fake relationships" exist. If you believe they do then you can decide if affairs are versions of fake relationships.

So first I would want to know whether WBFA believes fake relationships exist at all? Do you believe they exist but just dont think affairs are ever examples of them?

I would consider a fake relationship to be one where inauthenticity is so significant that there really is virtually nothing there when you take the fakeness away.

An example might be the following: (qualifier: please don’t take this to mean all house cleaners disrespect the house owner or al all house owners disrespect the cleaners)

But, in this case let’s say they do disrespect each other. So the house cleaner spends a whole afternoon, after completing cleaning, listening to the owner wax on about her upcoming vacation with her kids and how sad she is that her son is having a hard time with his girlfriend, etc. The cleaner pretends empathy and concern, knowing that today is the day the house owner will write her christmas bonus check. She not only listens with seeming empathy to the house owner she offers up her own sad home story about how she’s having trouble buying her son’s diabetes medication. An important added fact would be that the cleaning person doesn’t actually have a son and no one in the family has diabetes. It is all bullshit. It is a transactional relationship where two people get selfish needs met by using other people and employing lies to maximize the expected windfall from the other person.

This is what I would call a fake relationship.

It may somewhat depend if your spouse has any mild narcissistic tendencies. Mine for sure does. He will say this. And he is working on the problems that arise from this. He loves to tip the doormen BIG and for a brief moment enjoys the flattery, "oh, dr.so and so how was your trip? We’re so glad you’re back? What do you plan for the weekend?" Husband hands out two crisp twenties. MInutes later he says oh gross I’m doing it again. He’s not my friend is he? No, he’s not your friend but don’t worry, it’s nice for them to get a tip. Multiply this by 1000 and you have his affair.

Days before takeoff he gave her a 6,000 bonus. An amount unheard of for someone making what she makes. She counters with a lot of show of concern for his wellbeing, listens with rapt attention as he pontificates all about how stupid one political party is. Notably the AP is from the other political party. Does she debate him, of course not. Both are feeling great. Big shots all around. She decides to kiss him in the office because she knows his wife is preparing to get her fired. He eventually reciprocates the physical thing the whole time knowing he is spending his nights making arrangements for her to be laid off in two months—shifted to go work for someone else. He’s working behind her back the whole time. He is lying to me, he’s lying to her. She’s lying to him (at least in terms of thinking his jokes are funny, LOL), she doesn’t even want to go further than kissing (keeps stopping it there and saying "is this bad?"). So she’s not even authentically into the sexual part. My husbands not a slouch looks wise and if i were going to kiss him for sure I would want to go all the way ASAP. Not this lady. She wants to drag it out. Only she drags it out too far. Still holding up the progression all the way to the day she gets fired. She’s not stupid clearly—knows you can’t sell milk if you give away the cow.

Anyway, I had a VAR. I heard their conversations. It definitely was not what I would consider a "real" relationship. More of a sad fake relationship.

[This message edited by Stillconfused2022 at 8:11 PM, Wednesday, December 6th]

In my case I have never claimed the A wasn't real. She lied, cheated, snuck around and had sex with AP. What isn't real is the idea that AP was some Fabio looking dude from the cover of a romance novel that was an absolute god in the sack. That is the part that the WS has to convince themselves with mental gymnastics. My W looks back on the AP with disgust, the dude is not only not in the same league, he not in same universe, he is a loser, just right place at the right time.

StillConfussed, I really appreciated your post, very thought provoking and insightful.

StillConfused - great post.

In our case, the AP put on a persona that wasn't real. She listened to my H justify his A by bitching about how he wasn't getting enough sex, the house wasn't clean enough, I didn't cook enough, I wasn't fun anymore, etc. and then she fashioned herself into his perfect partner.

Except she wasn't his perfect partner, she was a damn mess (literally and figuratively) who was playing him. She was having an EA with someone else the whole time. She didn't give a fuck who saved her from being single and struggling financially, as long as someone did. What he felt for her was based on lies. He loved the idea of who she was presenting to him, not who she really was.

Sure, there are affairs that are real. Two people meet, they feel something, they share authentic thoughts and feelings, they pursue it, they interact outside of their bubble. But there are also affairs that aren't based in reality, that are transactional or manipulative. Like my H's. Like StillConfused's H. Drag them out into the light where you can look at them closely and they melt.

We were all lied to during the affair. Does that mean,during that time,my marriage wasn't real during the affair?

Looking back now, it sure doesn't feel real to me. He was faking being a good husband and family man. We were married on paper, sure, but the relationship was bullshit. How many of us can't even stand to look at old photos because the foundation of the marriage that we thought was solid and "real"... wasn't?

While there is no one size fits all narrative to affairs I do believe my husband’s was "not real" in the sense that the other women thought it was. Was he really F’ing her? Of course. Did he enjoy the attention? Of course. Did he he see a real future and loving marriage with her that she hoped for? No. Did he help her when she was ill? No. Did he want to ? No, she asked and was told she has a husband for that. Did he care when she was struggling financially? No. Did he help her when she had surgery? No. Did he ever want to truly be with her in an open relationship ? No. To me; that is not a real loving, partner relationship. He didn’t have loving feelings for her despite what he told her and knew that from the beginning . He dropped her with no feelings at all. Callously. So I guess the "real" or not part comes down to semantics. Sure he had some sort of relationship with her. Maybe a casual friend with benefits, but no one will ever convince me or even him that the feelings he had for her were the same that he had for me as we began dating. Does any of this matter ?🤷‍♀️ehh… probably depends on my mood, but mostly yes, it does. For me, had he entertained the idea of leaving for her or truly wanting a partnership with her it would have cut deeper. From

Day one he allegedly knew it was all bullshit and a little harmless "fun" that he didn’t know how to get out of unscathed. Similar to getting drunk at a bar and having fun while also making a complete ass out of yourself. Was the night fun? Sure. Given the choice between that bar fun everyday for the rest of your life or never going to the bar again he always would have chosen his life over the bar. So for me, it was not "real" but simply bullshit. But, make no mistake, this does not make him a "better" cheater or me delusional. He learned that it was not innocent fun that hurt no one . It still hurt like hell and forced him into some deep introspection and growth to become a man worthy and not a complete asshole. So again, it’s semantics. So a real friend to FuXx? Yep. A real loving relationship. Nope

[This message edited by OnTheOtherSideOfHell at 9:14 PM, Wednesday, December 6th]

I think folks get hung up on semantics.

We use certain phrases as shorthand. To be called out on that as if those who use the shorthand are "in denial" or whatever really isn't fair.

We are all smart enough to understand shorthand.

Of course affairs occur between real people and real sex is had and real lies are told. The devastation is most certainly real.

The essence of the "fantasy" term, I think, means the affair was not burdened by real life problems or stressors. More importantly, those in an affair ignore REALITY. There are marriages, children, financial futures, etc at stake. Those in affairs pretend those things don't exist or won't be impacted by the affair. Pure delusional thinking. Pure fantasy.

Imagine one starts to date a person and that person hides that they are married. They might also hide their addictions or debt or whatever. Then you find out they are married and everything they said was either a lie or impossible.

Was the relationship real? In the truest sense of the word, sure. Two people actually participated. But would any of us see that relationship as anything other than lies and fantasy?

No one is saying it didn't happen or it doesn't matter.

ETA Still confused nailed it better than I could. Most (not all) affairs are transactional. The cheaters say/do whatever they need to say/do to keep up the feel goods. All while deluding themselves that it's harmless in some way.

[This message edited by TheEnd at 10:14 PM, Wednesday, December 6th]

As far as characterizing affairs as fake or inauthentic, in my case, I actually think that my ex was more honest with his APs than he ever was with me. They knew way more about his thoughts, feelings, and (in the case of ho-worker OW #1) his every day life than I ever did. I also have no doubt that he truly believed the cruel things he said about me. So in my case, my marriage was the Potemkin Village; the affairs were where he actually lived.

Stillconfused, the behavior that you're describing from your WH sounds borderline psychopathic. Embarking on a romantic relationship with someone you're in the process of firing is both egregious in its cruelty and its reckless stupidity. I thought I was way passed the point of ever being shocked by what I've read on this forum, but for the first time in a long time, my jaw hit the floor.

[This message edited by BluerThanBlue at 10:23 PM, Wednesday, December 6th]

I'll put this another way.

You and your spouse have this bank account together that represents your life savings and your life's work, all your plans, hopes, and dreams. Your WS goes--behind your back--and takes all that money and gives it to someone else in return for happiness for the rest of her life for HER (but not you Bub you're now out in the cold!)

Is it really much if the person she sent the money to was a total online swindler--if your spouse were to tell you that where she sent the money to "wasn't real"...and she suspected it wasn't real all along? Your money sure as hell was real to you and her intentions to stiff you were just as real--and you are still out your money just the same!

[This message edited by WontBeFooledAgai at 11:04 PM, Wednesday, December 6th]

WBFA,

That analogy would only make sense to me if the entirety of my marriage was given to the AP instead. In reality, my marriage did and has always consisted of so much more than sexual fidelity. Yes, he cruelly gave away that aspect , but there was so much more to my marriage then and now that was never given away. That’s not to say fidelity isnt important to me, but it’s such a small aspect of the totality of my marriage and values. So using your analogy our entire life’s savings account was never emptied and given to another, fake or real.

[This message edited by OnTheOtherSideOfHell at 11:09 PM, Wednesday, December 6th]

I'll put this another way.

You and your spouse have this bank account together that represents your life savings and your life's work, all your plans, hopes, and dreams. Your WS goes--behind your back--and takes all that money and gives it to someone else in return for happiness for the rest of her life for HER (but not you Bub you're now out in the cold!)

Is it really much if the person she sent the money to was a total online swindler--if your spouse were to tell you that where she sent the money to "wasn't real"...and she suspected it wasn't real all along? Your money sure as hell was real to you--and you are still out your money just the same!

That's a great analogy.

The money being gone - that's real. That hurt you.

The relationship that H had with the swindler - that wasn't real. I mean, it was real, it happened, but it was all smoke and mirrors. That's what most people mean when they say it wasn't real. No one is trying to negate the damage done to the BS.

No one is trying to negate the damage done to the BS.

I don't think that's the problem with saying it was a fantasy.

I think its mental gymnastics some BS use,in order to make reconciling with their WS,more platable.

I also feel if a ws is able to sell this to their BS, it minimizes their accountability.

[This message edited by HellFire at 11:19 PM, Wednesday, December 6th]

My H didn't sell it to me, I sold it to HIM. He didn't see it, at least not at first. I did. I saw it. I saw that she was a manipulator looking for a cash cow to put a ring on it.

Also, I don't characterize it as anything as cute as a "fantasy". I characterize it as fake. A lie. Manipulation. Cotton candy in the rain. (Okay, cotton candy is a cute analogy, dammit. lol)

[This message edited by SacredSoul33 at 12:09 AM, Thursday, December 7th]

I suppose the responses on here beg the question...what if after DDay, WP and AP actually decide to give it a go? What if it is AP (but not WP who really intended on following through on running away with AP) who decides to end it after DDay?

I mean, knowing that WP would be at least giving it a go with AP except AP ended it/disqualified herself, I don't think a BP should ever get past that. That BP was second choice and was lied to all this time....It's extremely real in every sense of the word. I don't think it is really relevant that WP was in lala-land.

I agree with HellFire.

[This message edited by WontBeFooledAgai at 12:59 AM, Thursday, December 7th]