SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

I am going to add something here that I didn't see having been mentioned, and it's a crappy way to feel...and one that I, as a BS, find myself dealing with. I will also say that if not for this site, I would not really recognize what this feeling is entirely and would just feel like something is off.

****THIS IS JUST A THEORY so please don't take this as gospel or anything!

There is a possibility that this A, and the aftermath, and the TT, and all of it, is a dealbreaker for your BS and they just haven't been able to recognize that and/or accept that within themselves.

For example:

My WH and I have separated after he had a 2.5-3 year A. I caught him in 2017 after 5 months, and he lied and took the A underground. The A finally ended in 2019. I left in 2021 and we are no longer married. At the end of 2019 my WH started IC for himself and continued it (aside from some COVID related breaks and switching therapists when his retired), and has done a lot of work to change. He is a different person now - more open, less defensive, less conflict avoidant, and I do trust him now. We are reconciling our friendship and date occasionally, but honestly, I can't imagine going back to him full time - to resuming what we had before. I feel like at this point we talk frequently, and I like who he is, and as I said we still date infrequently, but... He would like to fully R, and I so wish he had been this guy today years ago BUT I don't have "that" feeling anymore about him - sometimes it seems like I do, but it's fleeting. The past, the trickle truth and the false R and the person he was - the person I know he is capable of being - just kicked the crap out of that feeling I used to have. I know I can't ever get it back. So, I have to decide if I am willing to R with this new person who I do trust, who is also this other person who I used to trust and who kicked the shit out of me.

My feelings are not the same, so I have placed us - definitely him more than me - in this weird limbo. And it's not like I am actively trying to decide between my current life and being back with him - not like I am cake-eating and having my freedom and a roll in the hay occasionally too. It's odder than that. I don't know if I want him back full time because I am not madly in love with him like I used to be (which sucks as this version of him is so much better than the guy I did fall madly in love with) and somewhere in the back on my mind I think if I am going to go all in I want that feeling again. We are where we are now because its comfortable, and its done in honesty - he knows how I feel and I know how he feels. But I recognize that there is a distinct chance that I am just done - that those feelings I want to have just aren't going to come back the way they were before, even if there is a part of me that wants them to sometimes, and that I have to decide if I can go forward with him, with these new, modified, and admittedly less intense version of them. I think that basically, at my core, I am deciding if I am okay with going forward with my WH feeling the way I do.

I feel like I was robbed of time - time I could have been spending doing a whole bunch of things, but instead I was tricked into sinking time into my WH. Now that I am "free" of all the ties that bound us together financially and otherwise, I feel better. I do still love him, but it's different. But...I also know that I too might feel different if we were 30 years older. I know some call it a lost-cost fallacy, but there is something to be said for staying where you are after so long especially when you get older. One of the things I have noticed on this site is there is an age where a lot of BS's just decide to stay together because they are "too old" to start over. I am guessing if you all had a 50th anniversary 8 years ago then you all would fall into the age range where that mindset seems to be very prevalent.

So, I'm going to ask a (maybe) uncomfortable question: Do you think your BS would have stayed if this had all happened 30 years earlier? Or do you think there is some form of sticking it out because they feel "too old" to start over and/or be alone?

[This message edited by ThisIsSoLonely at 8:45 PM, Sunday, August 27th]

DobleTraicion : 👏. Your posts are a treasure. Thank you.

Thank you kindly Lurkingsoul12.

[This message edited by DobleTraicion at 9:39 PM, Sunday, August 27th]

DobleTraicion, you said:

Your BH being forthcoming/transparent about his thoughts and feelings is an absolute treasure trove for you to work with.

Yes, I didn't always appreciate his being forthcoming. I saw his talking about the past as anger, not pain. I couldn't see why he couldn't get past the affair...I know, that's awful. He wasshowing lots of anger, but he was being honest. Now, he has changed and is able to discuss his feelings and ask questions in a more controlled way.

The anger is still there at times, but the pain comes through more. I don't like characterizing his actions and emotions, but I think there has been progress on his part.

For my part, I've learned to calm down too and be a better listener. My BS feels like I'm not good at empathizing. I'm trying.

Through writing here, I hope to become better at being open and vulnerable.

[This message edited by thatwilldo at 10:33 PM, Monday, August 28th]

DobleTraicion, you said:

Drilling down on this a bit further may be helpful. When he is this open how does it make you feel? Do you shut down or does it inspire you to reciprocate? Do shame and guilt spirals kick in and hinder your ability to respond in kind? Are you able to reach out to him, affirm his feelings and responses and give him further insight into your state of mind/being at that time? You neednt answer here, just some questions meant to help further growth in the pursuit of greater empathy.

These are great questions. It makes me feel good that he's open about his feeling. In the past there have been times when he has engaged in cold anger and so have I. It's a terrible and hurtful thing to do. I've thanked him several times for his willingness to talk. I do shut down sometimes because of shame. I'm trying to get over doing this because I did it when I had something to hide and it makes him feel bad. Also, I want to be close to him.

By the way, my BS ordered the book, No More Mr. Nice Guy.

[This message edited by thatwilldo at 7:14 PM, Monday, August 28th]

ThisIsSoLonely,

Thank you for your post. I'm feeling a little overwhelmed right now, so will respond later. I want you to know, though, that I appreciate your thoughts.

thatwilldo,

I don't post often, but I've been reading your story and I want to say that I'm impressed and moved by your self-awareness. I know it's coming decades late after a lot of lies and deception but I feel your commitment to breaking down your old ways of treating your BH and rebuilding a new more honest connection, even at the risk (potentially) of your marriage. I only wish my own wife had anywhere near the awareness and openness you are (now) showing. I agree with others that lack of empathy is the strongest barrier to successful reconciliation. Good luck.

TWD, Im going to take some time here and dig into your responses (thank you again btw), but before I do, I want to address something that I was processing (I am a processer) after reading ThisIsSoLonely's powerful post. It gave me cause to pause and made me realize that I had presupposed something extremely important and that was that you were both still "all in" on seeing how far down the road you can take this reconciliation journey. If either of you are still trying to decide if you even want to be in the marriage and work on R, Ill redirect my input accordingly as that is a very different vein of though for me. Special thanks to ThisIsSoLonely as that post was very thought provoking.

Ok, onward to this:

Yes, I didn't always appreciate his being forthcoming. I saw his talking about the past as anger, not pain. I couldn't see why he couldn't get past the affair...I know, that's awful. He was showing lots of anger, but he was being honest. Now, he has changed and is able to discuss his feelings and ask questions in a more controlled way.

The anger is still there at times, but the pain comes through more. I don't like characterizing his actions and emotions, but I think there has been progress on his part.

Thanks for this. Quick note on "getting past/through/around/over infidelity....its a mirage imo. The only way onward is to learn to live with the facts/memory of it and its completely unwanted lessons. Disclaimer: I am not talking about living with active infidelity. We all know that this place is about getting out of active infidelity. I am talking about not living in perpetial denial/avoidance.

This is so hard. Betrayeds in particular rail against this horrible experiential memory-thread being woven into the fabric of their lives. They want. it. out. I sure did. But guess what? Its not going anywhere. All we can do, reconciliation or no, is learn to deal with it. Deal and heal is also a mantra around here. Waywards also struggle with it as youve alluded to, "We have to deal with that again?" Yes, yes you do. Its such a harsh reality and it is wearing. Sure it (hopefully) gets less and less volatile over time when doing so, and (hopefully) less and less frequent but it does continue on. In ya'lls case, even more so since the trickle truth lasted for decades. One of the most sobering things (to me) posted on this site was from a BH who was in a long term reconciliation effort with his WW who said that 3 or 4 decades later he:

1. Still triggers 2 to 3 times a year

2. The affair and R effort cost him "a lot of the good in him".

He has attested to the fact that he is, by and large, now happily married and majoratively reconciled to his wife.

I say this all to say that I am glad to hear of the progress you are making in all of this and that the fact that this is still "wearing tread off of your tires" is common. Witness me being here too... still looking for answers....4 decades later.

Hang in there.

I have more to say but Im out of time right now (you may be saying "whew" glad youre taking a break).

Ill be back.

ThisIsSoLonely, you asked:

So, I'm going to ask a (maybe) uncomfortable question: Do you think your BS would have stayed if this had all happened 30 years earlier? Or do you think there is some form of sticking it out because they feel "too old" to start over and/or be alone?

We both wish very much that we hadn't rug-swept. We had children and didn't want to tear their world apart. Also, my BS is a man who takes his commitments and promises very seriously. I think he would see it as a major failure to D. When he takes on a responsibility, he completes it. I think that personality trait has a lot to do with our still being together. I think it is possible, though, that if we were younger, he would work hard to reconcile, but maybe leave me.

I think love has a lot to do with choice. I choose to love my BS. My thinking has improved and changed so much since my BS and I have been examining my affair back in the 70's.

You wrote:

I feel like at this point we talk frequently, and I like who he is, and as I said we still date infrequently, but... He would like to fully R, and I so wish he had been this guy today years ago BUT I don't have "that" feeling anymore about him - sometimes it seems like I do, but it's fleeting.

Are you pretty happy with the single life? I think "that feeling" is pretty fleeting. It's not something we can expect to last. It's more prevalent at the beginning of a relationship. It may be unrealistic to expect "that feeling" in a long-term relationship. That said, my BS and I still have our moments after all these years.

Thanks so much for sharing your thoughts. Your post made me cry for you and for my BS and the suffering you should have never gone through.

[This message edited by thatwilldo at 5:15 PM, Tuesday, August 29th]

Suffi22

I only wish my own wife had anywhere near the awareness and openness you are (now) showing. I agree with others that lack of empathy is the strongest barrier to successful reconciliation. Good luck.

If your wife comes here, maybe she will learn to be more forthcoming and empathetic. Thanks for your kind words. It is helping me and my BS very much to be able to get answers here.

These are great questions. It makes me feel good that he's open about his feeling. In the past there have been times when he has engaged in cold anger and so have I. It's a terrible and hurtful thing to do. I've thanked him several times for his willingness to talk. I do shut down sometimes because of shame. I'm trying to get over doing this because I did it when I had something to hide and it makes him feel bad. Also, I want to be close to him.

By the way, my BS ordered the book, No More Mr. Nice Guy.

A few thoughts on shame. I cannot speak to it from tbe Wayward pov but I have dealt with shame over the years for not being strong enough to end things. For not taking a firm enough stance. For not doing a lot of things I now think I should have and for letting other things slide. That, coupled with regret was a heavy weight that I carried for years. Truth is though that as a much younger man, due in large part to MY FoO issues that I just did not have the tools onboard nor the maturity to deal with the situation with strength. I had had so much chaos and trauma in my life growing up, I was conflict and trauma avoidant. This did not serve me well at all.

Through years of good therapy, holding up the mirror of healthy self evaluation, I learned to be cognisant of when I felt shame and regret welling up inside me and immediately asking myself where I could redirect that emotional energy into something positive and constructive, rather than letting that powerful emotive energy freeze me or drag me down. Its hard when in the moment. I will even talk to myself out loud and say things like "not today" (healthy verbalized self talk is a good tool). My wife is used to it by now 😁

A word to your BH about the books I mentioned. For me, they provided a counter balance. A way to arrest dependency. To build a sense of self determination and self affirmation as a strong man in speech, action and character. It is part of what I needed to rebuild.

I am a far cry from the guy who went through that trial-by-betrayal years ago. This was highlighted by an exercise my therapist guided me through where I was given a multi page list of personality traits and told to circle the ones that described who I was then, and repeat to best describe who I am today. For better or worse (hopefully better) the two profiles barely resembled one another. Some overlap but not much. Thats how much I had changed. I am wont to say that there are two things that can change your life, inspiration or desperation. Id rather be inpired, but if Im honest, its desperation that has been the greater driver of change in me.

I feel like Im rambling a bit this AM so please forgive me. I hope there is something in what Ive shared that may prove useful and helpful in your journey together.

[This message edited by DobleTraicion at 4:45 PM, Wednesday, August 30th]

Are you pretty happy with the single life? I think "that feeling" is pretty fleeting. It's not something we can expect to last. It's more prevalent at the beginning of a relationship. It may be unrealistic to expect "that feeling" in a long-term relationship. That said, my BS and I still have our moments after all these years.

I am happy with the "single life" although I don't feel entirely single. I have always been a traveler and this new version of my life has freed me to do more of that without worrying that my WH couldn't get time off! lol I am still lonely at times but it is a different kind of lonely than how I felt in 2017/18/19 - so it's okay and really, even though 5-6 years ago I could never have imagined that I would be saying this, but as far as the whole infidelity goes, I do feel fine. My issue with my WH are not related to my own pain - I am infidelity-pain-free these days and loving it.

That being said I think I should clarify: that "feeling" I was describing is not that new-love feeling. You are right in that love has everything to do with choice. While not together for 50+ years we met close to 20 years ago now so that new tingly feeling isn't what I mean. I mean that I had this massive respect for my WH as a person before. Of course he had flaws (we were not without our personal disputes for certain) but he was on that "I know he will always have my back when it counts" pedestal. To me, that is a LOT of what a relationship is about - the joint venture of it all. When my WH did what he did he broke that joint venture nature of our relationship - that bond was shattered and try as I may I will never see him in that light again. While I can choose a lot of things, I cannot choose to mend that respect...some things for me just "are," much like physical attraction, and I have yet to figure out the Jedi mind trick which would allow me to move past this feeling.

I think perhaps it is something that a WS cannot entirely grasp (much like I could not grasp the pain of infidelity before I experienced it). What I meant is that there is a bit of a cloud hanging over my WH now that I can't seem to shake which I have discussed with him and it's clear he hears me, but he doesn't really fully get it - and it's not just the A itself, it's HIS handling of the aftermath and how I was treated - the trickle truth and the lies that I firmly believe really really really did the damage. He saw me in pain, and decided to protect himself over me - the ultimate showing of "when push comes to shove I will sacrifice you to save myself" mentality. I know he is capable of that. I also know I am not capable of that for any extended period of time. I can't relate to that line of thinking, and even if he has changed that behavior now - even if there was some way to prove he is "cured" of that behavior (I know that's not possible but I say this just by example) - he still did that, to me. I can't undo that in my head, and I have not been able to move past it completely. It's where WH and I are stuck. It is also where you BS may be stuck, even if he doesn't fully recognize that.

I did a whole series of comments on trickle truth and lies and the long term damage it does and how much time it takes, if ever, to move through it. I will try to fish some of those posts and put them into one to see if it's useful and how others think about it generally.

[This message edited by ThisIsSoLonely at 1:05 PM, Thursday, August 31st]

ThisIsSoLonely,

There is so much to think about in what you're saying to me. You said:

I mean that I had this massive respect for my WH as a person before. Of course he had flaws (we were not without our personal disputes for certain) but he was on that "I know he will always have my back when it counts" pedestal. To me, that is a LOT of what a relationship is about - the joint venture of it all. When my WH did what he did he broke that joint venture nature of our relationship - that bond was shattered and try as I may I will never see him in that light again. While I can choose a lot of things, I cannot choose to mend that respect...some things for me just "are," much like physical attraction, and I have yet to figure out the Jedi mind trick which would allow me to move past this feeling.

This makes me so sad because it describes so well what we cheaters accomplish with our lying, rug-sweeping, gaslighting and just stinkin'thinkin'. My BS spouse relates strongly to what you said. He wants back what he thought he had. That respect is something that I miss so much.

An aside here for some of my very skewed thinking...I thought that by telling everything about any questionable behavior on my part with affair partners or just any man, my BS would be relieved of most of the pain that I caused. Well, that didn't happen because I had already lied for so long that he isn't able to believe me now. Also, the things that I did were so painful to him. He still suffers every day from my shattering his original belief that I could be trusted with his heart.

He saw me in pain, and decided to protect himself over me - the ultimate showing of "when push comes to shove I will sacrifice you to save myself" mentality. I know he is capable of that. I also know I am not capable of that for any extended period of time.

I'm so sorry for this. My BS feels very much this way. I saw his pain as anger for many years And I didn't even let myself think about it as pain. I was very willing to blame him for not getting over it. Maybe your WH thought this way, too.

I am infidelity-pain-free these days and loving it.

I'm happy for you that you can say this. Thanks again for your help. I imagine that it's painful for you to write these things down.

DobleTraicion, you asked:

If either of you are still trying to decide if you even want to be in the marriage and work on R, Ill redirect my input accordingly as that is a very different vein of though for me.

What we're doing is trying to figure out how to live with my betrayal in the best way. I believe there will always be some pain there and regrets about how we handled our life together through the years. I'm responsible for the lion's share of problems we've had. I've never thought of it as reconciliation, though. I think of it as trying to understand my choices and learning to be empathetic. Some people talk about the marriage being over because of an affair and then with reconciliation, beginning anew.
I don't see it that way. I see it as living with my choices and trying to understand myself and to help my BS understand. Of course this requires me to understand his pain and point of view.

Waywards also struggle with it as youve alluded to, "We have to deal with that again?" Yes, yes you do.

I've had that exact thought, but I'm getting better at bringing up affair issues myself. My BS has told me that it's painful for him to ask questions and bring up the affair, although he does do it.

A few thoughts on shame. I cannot speak to it from tbe Wayward pov but I have dealt with shame over the years for not being strong enough to end things. For not taking a firm enough stance. For not doing a lot of things I now think I should have and for letting other things slide. That, coupled with regret was a heavy weight that I carried for years. Truth is though that as a much younger man, due in large part to MY FoO issues that I just did not have the tools onboard nor the maturity to deal with the situation with strength. I had had so much chaos and trauma in my life growing up, I was conflict and trauma avoidant. This did not serve me well at all.

Yes, my BS relates to this very much, he wishes we'd gone through what we're going through now all those years ago. It sounds like you've made great progress in recent years. Thanks for your help.

Threadjack

I did a whole series of comments on trickle truth and lies and the long term damage it does and how much time it takes, if ever, to move through it. I will try to fish some of those posts and put them into one to see if it's useful and how others think about it generally.

ThisIsSoLonely, Id be very interested in reading those comments whether you put them here or in a seperate post.

End threadjack.

TWD, hope you and your BH are well and making forward progress.

My BH and I are still together. It has been years since D-Day. I'd love to leave the past in the past and move on, but every now and again my BH triggers. I am better at accepting it today. My affair seems very silly and immature...and worthless to me now, but you are a product of your actions. I believe my BH fully loves me again, but trust is something that I believe takes forever to regain, once you've destroyed it. It's why people lose jobs, friendships, marriages and life. I think my BH would respond enthusiastically to loving me. Trust, I am not very sure about that! I am OK with that, because I plan to spend forever building it back.

I can't believe how similar our stories are and our reactions. Same age group, same deception and lying. I differ in that my infidelity was early in the marriage.
Sorry if I threadjack.
He had wanted a detailed account of my premarital sex life. I have never had full sex with anyone in my life but BS. After we were married the inquisitions it continued I had a flirtation with a coworker who was also married. I minimized the past and lied, even exaggerated because I began to wear down and would have admitted to pretty well anything, if that is what he thought I was. No excuses though I was young and stupid. I also told him of the post marital flirtation.

Accusations have continued at frequent intervals, but I thought we had settled down in a sexless marriage for the last 20 years, and I deserved it. However, the pot of anger has been simmering. The bouts of anger have been more frequent and he knows how to push my buttons.
Now he has the been diagnosed with moderate dementia and all the bad memories super-cede all the good ones. He still calls me a slut.
He triggered last night and wants he wants a divorce, and he wants to declare everything to the family because we are living a lie. After all these years I am afraid it will taint all their memories and will hurt them.

I hope that your BS will find peace not anger.

Amy44, you said:

I'd love to leave the past in the past and move on, but every now and again my BH triggers.

I think, for my BS and I, there are daily reminders of my lying and cheating. I don't think they always reach the level of "triggers", but there are certainly daily reminders in the news(sexual harassment), in old photographs of times during the affair when he thought at the time that I was being faithful and I wasn't. Love songs remind us. It can really be just about anything.
When something reminds me of the affair, I'm getting better at bringing it up and it helps.

When a cheater says she/he's reluctant to bring up the affair on a "good" day, I think it's better to bring it up because the BS then won't feel so lonely with his/her thoughts. It's a lifelong commitment to heal from an affair.

Thanks for posting. It sounds like you and your BS are doing pretty well.

(((cissie)))

I'm so sorry to hear of your plight. There are some similarities there. Maybe your doctor or your family can help you to work with him on the dementia. Also, counseling for you might help.

TWD

Thanks your response. I should start a thread of my own. I tried in General, but got only one reply.

I have been to 3 counselors, but they all told me to divorce him. I should have.

I have done a lie detector test. He didn't accept it.

Thanks to everyone for the houghtful posts. I wish I could express myself so well.

This has given me a new insight, but unfortunately it is unlikely to change anything given the situation.

I’m 6 years since dday, married 37 years, reconciled and in a good place. I was extremely bitter for a long long time. I can hardly believe the peace and joy I feel now.

I’m going to share a cheat sheet to my specific broken heart. I don’t mean to claim it will work for everyone, but I hope it helps.

There are 3 specific things I needed to hear from my WS over and over again until I believed in my soul he was sincere or I couldn’t trust him with my heart again.
I would have much preferred if he came up with these specific ways to reassure me himself, but realistically that was too much to ask for from a confused ashamed WS. If he was mature, emotionally intelligent and empathetic enough to come up with these concepts on his own, he wouldn’t have cheated.

1. He wished desperately he could go back in time to when it was just starting and say: It all sounds very exciting and I’m sure my ego would enjoy the strokes, but I could never do anything that I know would hurt my BS so much. Give me a couple days to talk it over with BS first and see if she wants to get a divorce. (Of course we all know that going back in time is impossible, but I needed to feel in my heart that he reflected about it enough and wished more than anything that he could.)
2. Now that he’s in his right mind, he can’t believe he was ever so foolish and superficial to think the AP was better than me in any way that mattered to him. Sure, she was 23 years younger and had a perfect body, but her mind, heart and soul were filled with ugly dark slime, as was his at the time.
3. I didn’t deserve any of it. I deserved the exact opposite- an honest man who loved only me, exactly as he promised me when we married.