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I was going to post this question in the "BS Questions for WS" section, but I thought I might get more input posting in the General Fourm.

Several boundaries are put in place for a WS after Dday as a means of them taking accountability for their actions, building trust with the BS, transparency, etc.

While my WH has put in a lot of hard work and done a lot of hard things to show me his remorse and that he will never give up I feel like he has similar expectations of me?? Let me (try to) explain the moral of my post.

My H has me to believe that he has the same expectations as me to be 110% transparent with him - my first thought is …. "Ummmm, well if that ain’t calling the kettle black?!" Secondly, I’ve always been 110% transparent … I’m a loyal and faithful W that has no reason not to provide transparency … I’ve been transparent all along!!! I will provide a fictional example.

Let’s say my H tells me he’s going to the grocery store to pickup a few things and that he will be home in 20 minutes. Its now been 40 minutes and he just gets home. In addition to the grocery store, he realized he was low on fuel and needed to get gas and remembered he had to pickup a prescription from the drugstore. *Before infidelity I wouldn’t have cared about the extra stops, I probably wouldn’t have noticed to be honest. Now things are different and he should be taking this as a means of being transparent, building trust, etc.* So we’ve been "at this" for a while now and knows by now what to do … he calls me beforehand and lets me know about the extra stops and provides receipts when he gets home. (*BTW my H really is amazing at being transparent in everything like this*)

Ok … now it’s my turn to go to the grocery store. I tell him I’m going to pickup a few things and I will be home in 30 minutes. After the grocery store I drive past a Winners and want to swing in and shop the clearance sale. I’m in and out within 10 minutes and then head back home.

Later that evening my H notices the lamp I bought at Winners earlier that day. He makes a comment and asks about it. I tell him I bought it today when I made a stop into Winners on my way home from the grocery store. H gets upset that I didn’t tell him about my extra stop and that I should have been transparent with him about that stop. I get into a bit of a defensive mode and am unsure why I have to give him an exact play by play of my stops and be transparent with him (after all, I didn’t betray his trust and it was a quick 10 minute stop).

My thoughts on transparency are that I’m not the one who betrayed the M and broke trust … why should I have to account for my 10 or 15 minutes here and there when I haven’t done anything wrong? I surely wouldn’t have needed to account for that time prior to HIS infidelity (and vice versa).

Now … this is a hypothetical example, but this type of scenario around transparency is something that comes up from time to time. Obviously, I have no problem being transparent, but to have to account for my every little whereabout to my H seems a bit excessive and frankly pisses me off because "I’m not the one on trial here."

Am I looking at this wrong? Should I as the BS "go the extra mile" to provide the same level of transparency? It’s not that I’m not transparent … I am. I guess I view it as this is a "him thing" and he needs to regain, rebuild my trust, not the other way around. I’ve been a loyal, honest, faithful W … I’ve proved that and given him no reason to doubt that.

I guess I’m just from a different generation, but I don’t understand the need for "privacy" as to electronics or location. Better to not do/say things you wouldn’t want to see on the front page of the paper (see, I really am from a different generation: what’s the front page of a paper?). Professionals with confidentiality obligations excepted.

Maybe he’s worried you’ll try and level the playing field. He’s probably a mess, just now.

I wouldn’t let this get in the way of improving things.

You are not looking at this wrong. You did not break trust and therefore are not looking to re-earn it. Secondly, you did not traumatize him and give him a reason to need reassurance through transparency.

Had he never broken your trust he wouldn’t have to earn it back and you wouldn’t care if he stopped at the gas station. I believe if he had a full understanding of the damage he inflicted he would not be making any comparison. He should be grateful you are willing to try to work things out with him and making every effort to show he is deserving of such an opportunity.

If he does this right, and maintains trust consistently over a long period of time it may bring up opportunities for more equality in that way. But I am almost eight years out, and I still check in when I am leaving work. If I am stopping by to do anything it’s likely a grocery run anyway and it gives the added opportunities to ask him if he wants anything from the store. I don’t even look at it as a trust thing anymore, it’s just what I am used to and don’t find it anything but considerate.

Your WH is acting like a petulant teenager who's upset that his Mom won't leave him alone at home over the weekend after he threw a monster party at the house while she was away.

The snarky part of my brain wants to tell you to say, "Oh you're upset that I'm home late? Would you have preferred to know in advance that you would have extra free time on your hands to do... other things?" <wink wink>

But in all seriousness, you know that your husband doesn't really need or want a play-by-play of your daily life; he's just resentful of the fact that you no longer trust him and that he has to account for his activities because his word no longer matters.

So the next time your husband gets upset because you made an extra stop while running errands without telling him or implies that you're hypocritical, just turn it back around on him:

"Do you want to rebuild my trust or not? Because if you do, then you'll be transparent about and accountable for your actions without making unreasonable demands on me. And yes, they are unreasonable because you know damn well that I've never done anything and will never do anything to betray you."

And that's the end of the discussion.

[This message edited by BluerThanBlue at 6:08 PM, Thursday, February 20th]

No you are not looking at this wrong. He betrayed your trust therefore he has to work harder to be transparent and gain that trust not you. A criminal gets probation that is similar to what the WS is having to do. Why would an innocent person also have to do probation.

I'm sorry but I would be pissed and something like this would set me back and cause resentment, but that is me. Sounds very tit for tat and he is in no position to be playing that game. It's not like you went out and got a massage you bought a freaking lamp (and even if you did get a massage that be ok too, but you had proof of your outing no need for the pushback and petty behavior).

This whole concept of BS having to suffer same consequences as the WS does not sit well with me. Probably why I am divorced

[This message edited by crazyblindsided at 6:12 PM, Thursday, February 20th]

I think of that more as accountability than transparency. To me, transparency is sharing thoughts and feelings. Anyway, I digress...

IMO, both need to be accountable in recovery, even though the BS has done nothing wrong. Anything you ask of him you should be willing to do as well. The aim is to rebuild trust, not punish the offender. I think I'd be like, "Bitch, I have nothing to hide. CHECK ME."

There's an easy fix: Share your locations with each other via an app like Life360. Set it up so that you can see location history. It'll stop these arguments and maybe he won't feel so much like he's on a leash.

crazyblindsided

This whole concept of BS having to suffer same consequences as the WS does not sit well with me. Probably why I am divorced

Well, I think you would agree BS does suffer consequences... of having to deal with the pain and anxiety of being married to a person she can't trust. Perhaps OP's husband needs to be reminded of that.

Heartbrokenwife23

Just to add, it's fairly common for cheaters to get really controlling with their BS and want to track their movements, either because they're paranoid about a revenge affair, they're worried about their BS consulting with a lawyer, or (quite often) they're sneaking around behind their BS's back and trying to avoid getting caught. Around the time when my ex kicked off his affair with OW #2, he was a lot more interested in knowing where I was, what I was doing, and when I would get home than he had ever been before.

[This message edited by BluerThanBlue at 7:10 PM, Thursday, February 20th]

Sacred- I am surprised a bit by your response.

I definitely see the ws being open about their whereabouts as transparency the same as being transparent with feelings. It’s about making your spouse feel that all the information about your life is an open book. It’s a needed step in order to build trust to allow the bs to have the comfort of knowing that you care they are apprehensive and that you are no longer interested in hiding a double life from them. It’s a way that the bs can see clearly the scope of the one track life they are now on.

To me accountability is about taking stock of what we do as right or wrong and being able to explore what part of us needs work. Working towards personal healing is a way that bs and ws both have to take accountability.

Their roles in reconciliation are different. A bs has the role of trying to make progress past it, and slowly allowing the trust being earned to build. So when I see a bs posting things like "I need to stop saying snarky things" or "I know he has to go on this business trip" To me those things are hard to take accountability over but are needed.

The ws has things that are hard to do as well. But Telling the spouse you have been sneaking around on where you are going to be and what you are doing is not hard to do. It’s very basic, logical, and probably the easiest lifting one can do if they understand they are the ones who created that concern. That’s called consequences and not punishment. I think they should know to do it without even being told. It’s easy to see why the bs would be concerned even if they don’t always express it. It was damn near one of the first things I offered as I confessed.

I am not admonishing you for having that opinion or asking you to change your mind. I am just expressing why I am surprised by it.

I do not subscribe to a ws getting extra punishments or being abused. But I also think that one who can’t abide natural consequences of their actions are likely not good rebuilders.

I just think putting extra work on a bs that has a shit ton of their own accountability concerns that are hard enough seems unfair. The ws should be in a postion for a long hike of earning back the trust and the relationship itself. It’s the natural order of reconciliation. After all, we are asking the bs to do something very unnatural to them.

[This message edited by hikingout at 7:36 PM, Thursday, February 20th]

Formerpeopleperson

I don’t see the need for privacy either. My H and I always had an "open everything" policy. I just never felt the need to check or had a desire to check in (until my gut told me otherwise).

I still am open with him, as I’ve always been. I guess I just don’t see the point in having to make it a habit to tell him about my every move (maybe that’s a bit of a stretch term, but you get what I mean).

Maybe he’s worried you’ll try and level the playing field. He’s probably a mess, just now.

He very much is. I will admit that I threaten it from time to time. Obviously, comments like that is not very helpful or productive, but I get angry and can’t control what comes outta my mouth at times.

hikingout

Thank you. Your thoughts have mimicked mine. I feel like if I haven’t betrayed him or broken his trust then what is it that I have to "prove" to him? I do think he tries to compare his hurt to mine and I told him that he can’t keep comparing apples to oranges … it’s not fair and it’s keeping me in an angry state.

I know he is extremely grateful I’m giving him a chance to show me that he is deserving, but there are definitely things he still has a hard time comprehending.

If he does this right, and maintains trust consistently over a long period of time it may bring up opportunities for more equality in that way.

This is also something that I understand and would be more than willing to offer just not at this point in time.

BluerThanBlue

Trust me, I’m a snarky woman with lots of comments that come spewing out of my mouth at any given time I want to be heard.

But in all seriousness, you know that your husband doesn't really need or want a play-by-play of your daily life; he's just resentful of the fact that you no longer trust him and that he has to account for his activities because his word no longer matters.

Yes and no. I know my H really does want to be transparent with me and build my trust in anyway he can. He is more than willing and happy to do it. He understands that he broke that trust I had in him and that he will do literally whatever it takes to build it up the best he can.

Not that he wants a play by play … I think he just doesn’t fully comprehend why I don’t provide the same level of transparency back. He’s not perfect, he’s still learning and trying to grasp certain things, but he needs extra help to dissect those areas that have multiple layers.

crazyblindsided

A criminal gets probation that is similar to what the WS is having to do. Why would an innocent person also have to do probation.

This is the perfect analogy and exactly how I look at it. I will have to share this with him - he seems to understand more if I can use examples like this.

I would be pissed and something like this would set me back and cause resentment

This is exactly what is happening. As if I didn’t have enough resentment, his "tit for tat" attitude as you describe it, is exactly why I get defensive and pissed off and the layer of resentment keeps getting thicker.

ScaredSoul33

Thank you for your perspective.

IMO, both need to be accountable in recovery, even though the BS has done nothing wrong. Anything you ask of him you should be willing to do as well. The aim is to rebuild trust, not punish the offender. I think I'd be like, "Bitch, I have nothing to hide. CHECK ME."

I agree that when it comes to recovery or maybe more of an attempt at reconciliation that both should be more than willing to offer transparency. I guess at 16 months, I feel he doesn’t have much of a leg to stand on right now. He needs to build that trust back with me first before I decide to jump in with him. Nonetheless, he can check my shit anytime, anywhere 😂

BluerThanBlue

I understand that it can be common for cheaters to want to gain control, but this really isn’t a case of him wanting to control me. Its more along the lines of him not being able to fully comprehend why I’m not doing the transparency "bit" too because of the fact we have decided to R. I think he’s scared of a possible RA or that he might come home and we will be gone (yes, I’m guilty of "threatening" this when I get defensive … although I try to limit this when I can). I truly believe in the depth of my soul as well as my gut that there is no OW lurking around the corner. He is struggling hard with what he has done and that he very well might not be able to repair the damage. I can see (and feel) that it haunts him daily.

I could never get there again with my marriage. I felt 100% transparency was required before infidelity. There should not be secrets in thoughts or deeds. I lived that, even when it pained me.

After D-day, it was different for me personally. If my WH asked how my day went, I was not going to give an accounting. It's too vulnerable, and I did not feel he had the right to know. I'm not sure I feel he has the "right to know" everything even now after several years.

Here's a day after infidelity:
At 5:15am, I got to the gym and cried in my car until the gym opened. I noticed that one cute guy waiting in his truck too and saw him looking at me crying on the elliptical. He put out a flyer for a divorce support group. I went to work. I cried in my car, but eventually I pulled it together and walked into work. I said hello and closed my door and read old Surviving Infidelity posts for a few hours to figure out what the hell was going on in my life. I went through financial documents and called some attorneys. I didn't get anything done at work. I was driving home and then couldn't force myself to take my exit so I kept driving and drove into another town miles away for absolutely no reason I can think of other than to escape my immediate life. I came home and saw you hanging out on the couch and wondered what the heck you did for your day. Yay. Let me have a glass of wine.

There is a type of "truism" on here that you need to be vulnerable and transparent for reconciliation. I don't know. I guess so for true reconciliation, but damn it's hard to do. Eventually, my WH and I had it out because it was obvious I was lying all the time. He told me to just tell him that I wouldn't tell him. What the hell? A lie by omission is a lie too.

I'm saying I'm not there, because if I decide to investigate or divorce I absolutely will not be honest with him. He knows that, but it's not optimal.

"I guess I’m just from a different generation, but I don’t understand the need for "privacy" as to electronics or location. Better to not do/say things you wouldn’t want to see on the front page of the paper (see, I really am from a different generation: what’s the front page of a paper?). Professionals with confidentiality obligations excepted."

I can see where the above poster is coming from.

I share life 360 location with Fiancée and a number of friends. Fiancée and I are both BS.
People have different feelings about this and I respect that.

Fiancée and I are also really transparent about our finances. We share a credit card for daily purchases. He does not care if I buy a $10 starbys coffee drink. So it’s not the same as control. It’s our way of being accountable to our budget. That said, we could have just as easily chosen to do something like each take $100 cash a month out for misc and I could buy my starbys out of that. I don’t think there is a right or wrong way here as long as there is mutual consent. Our mutually agreed upon food and dining budget does not allow for either of us to buy daily $$ coffee drinks.

While I was in (unfortunately false) R with exwh I had (as was my usual practice) no problem with being accountable for where I was and what I was doing and spending. However he apparently had a problem doing this himself.

I can relate to what Kitchen Depth posted in that my transparency was not compatible with his infidelity. I wish I had figured this out and realized the risk and cost of being transparent with someone who did not have my best interests in mind.

Sacred- I am surprised a bit by your response.

I'm surprised by yours as well. Is your surprise about the semantics? Because we mostly share the same sentiment, we just use different terms. I'm a word girl. I really like words. In this case, both work, really.

accountability

noun

ac·​count·​abil·​i·​ty ə-ˌkau̇n-tə-ˈbi-lə-tē

Synonyms of accountability

: the quality or state of being accountable

especially : an obligation or willingness to accept responsibility or to account for one's actions

transparent

adjective

trans·​par·​ent tran(t)s-ˈper-ənt

Synonyms of transparent

2a: free from pretense or deceit : frank

b: easily detected or seen through : obvious

c: readily understood

d : characterized by visibility or accessibility of information especially concerning business practices

I had an excellent MC. His coaching of relationship transparency was about sharing thoughts and feelings in real time, or as soon as possible. We were told to start with the mundane to build up our transparency muscles. I'll never forget standing in Costco and sharing my thoughts with my H about a particular cereal. Something like "I appreciate you always buying this for me. It's sweet that you think of me, but I don't like it." At the time, that was big.

"I went to Home Depot, then I got a smoothie, then I got gas, and then I came home. Here are my receipts." Skip all that and get an app. It achieves the exact same thing. The WS is accountable, the BS can see every move, and there's no need for him to literally report to her every time he leaves the house, which I'm sure is demoralizing.

If I've got nothing to hide and my WS and I are both working on R - not on the fence or headed for D - why would I be unwilling to be reciprocate? Why wouldn't I share my location with my H to reassure him or even just mollify him? There's no "extra work". An app is less work.

And at some point, the BS has to be brave enough to extend trust without requiring literal receipts. I'm sorry, I don't know Heartbrokenwife23's status as far as latest DDays, type of A, etc. but if it's been a year and a half since the last DDay and H has been a good boy, why is he still required to literally show receipts?

[This message edited by SacredSoul33 at 9:14 PM, Thursday, February 20th]

Soooo there are two schools of thought here.

You are both on equal ground and what’s good for one is good for the other. Makes sense if you look at it from that perspective. Ex. He can’t go to bars solo and pick up other women and you can’t go to bars and pick up other men. Level playing field so to speak.

But the opposite can also be true. You didn’t cheat so why should you be held to a higher standard when you’ve done nothing wrong.

It’s up to the two people in the marriage to decide how to navigate these issues going forward.

You could put location tracking devices on your phones and then either person can look to see where the other person is. You don’t need to call and check in if you think it’s too much.

But I understand your push back towards the cheater. Just goes to show he really does not get it. Because if he did he would not bring this up. He would accept the situation for exactly what it is.

IMO the answer to the title of the post is no.

In a typical marriage, the couple agree to provide each other with some nominal level of accountability and transparency. in R that level dramatically rises for the WS due to the need to provide emotional assurance to the BS. As for the BS, that level stays the same or even goes down a bit to prevent it being used against the BS(e.g. WS using BS schedule/location to plan A). That said, there are some BS who reciprocate as a way of "helping the medicine go down" but as a community we generally do not see it as necessary. Long term, provided your R is going well, this kinda just gradually defaults to high levels of transparency for both you as the BS becomes more relaxed.

He very much is. I will admit that I threaten it from time to time. Obviously, comments like that is not very helpful or productive, but I get angry and can’t control what comes outta my mouth at times.

Now this is something I think you should can work on since you yourself have observed that it's "not very helpful or productive". However the behavior that you're responding to...

I do think he tries to compare his hurt to mine and I told him that he can’t keep comparing apples to oranges … it’s not fair and it’s keeping me in an angry state.

...is the much bigger problem IMO. It shows that he hasn't fully grasped the dimensions of the hole he has dug for himself and you. This can indicate that he's not remorseful or not all-in on R.

I know he is extremely grateful I’m giving him a chance to show me that he is deserving, but there are definitely things he still has a hard time comprehending.

I think the question here is: "is he getting better at comprehending as time goes on?" Because if you guys get stuck for too long on stuff like this it can definitely cause resentment and endanger R. If it's merely going slowly, it might just be that your WH is an emotionally slow learner, though ultimately how much slowness you can tolerate is up to you.

crazyblindsided

A criminal gets probation that is similar to what the WS is having to do. Why would an innocent person also have to do probation.

It's actually worse than that. It's a criminal that was facing a long sentence but had that sentence reduced to only probation at the request of the victim. Now that criminal is asking why the victim doesn't need to do probation in response to the victim being a little snarky.

[This message edited by mardandra at 9:52 PM, Thursday, February 20th]

I'm surprised by yours as well. Is your surprise about the semantics? Because we mostly share the same sentiment, we just use different terms. I'm a word girl. I really like words. In this case, both work, really. grin

No it wasn’t the wording it was:

IMO, both need to be accountable in recovery, even though the BS has done nothing wrong. Anything you ask of him you should be willing to do as well. The aim is to rebuild trust, not punish the offender. I think I'd be like, "Bitch, I have nothing to hide. CHECK ME."

I only talked about the wording because I think when it comes to the ws, they need to be absolutely see through at all times for some period of time. I used my language really to illustrate the different bucket for me. You also call it punishment. I don’t think punishment is the same as natural consequences.

But I feel that if my husband wanted to check my phone it was always available to him, if I was going places I checked in. I do not feel he owed the same to me. (Though me picking up his phone was never an issue, not even during his affair so maybe I felt okay because there was no restriction. I still understood it would have been insulting to him )

The app is less work. I would say the bs could opt to have their location turned off though.

The reasons? Could be that him knowing my location might make it easier to do shady dealings because he knows my whereabouts. I wouldn’t be letting him know I was about to roll up on him. Or Maybe I want to sit with a divorce attorney without him knowing just to get information.

I think the bs and ws have more of a reciprocal role than an equal role in the marriage until higher ground is reached. The ws proving themselves as trustworthy is their responsibility. The bs’s role is to allow that trust to be earned.

And honestly the fact he is stomping his feet on that aspect is likely an indicator of why she doesn’t trust him yet. If he can’t see the difference that would piss me right off.

But it isn’t that I don’t respect what you are saying, I can sort of see a level playing field may work better. I just never consider the possibility of that before; thus the surprise that would even be a thing people do.

I do not think that bs have to take on the same ws consequences in order for it not to be a punishment. I think it’s too much of an ask to act like the bs has something to hide when you have been standing in their face for a period of time lying your ass off and committing adultery.

We do now treat each other as equals. Moreso than even in our pre-a marriage. We use each others phones all the time for different stuff. We have life 360 for safety reasons after seeing so many instances of people crashing their cars in bushes or ravines where people can’t find them.

And I do not think one of us should hold anything separate or anything like that. But if you asked me a year in or two years in, there is no equality to measure. It has nothing to do with one being bad or one being good, or power dynamics or punishment, it’s more about being sensitive to what your spouse may need. Not every bs needs this, others need it a lot. To me what her husband is saying is a red flag that he does not see this. It makes me feel he doesn’t see the scope of the damage.

[This message edited by hikingout at 12:46 AM, Friday, February 21st]

I'm with Sacred soul on this one.

I guess I do not see how putting an ankle bracelet on someone is anything other than punitive. At some point it has to come off. Are you banking at that point that they've been trained well enough?

And heaven forbid that they express to you their discomfort. Consequences after all. I mean I'm grateful that you are expressing your thoughts and feelings, but those are immaterial right now. I need to know that I can trust you!

Sorry duplicate post.

[This message edited by hikingout at 12:47 AM, Friday, February 21st]

I don’t think it’s the bs putting in an ankle bracelet. I think it’s something that if a ws reads anything it will tell them this is a good way to build trust. So someone reading these things should readily offer it. It’s in the book we suggest to every ws as they come to the forum. And it’s in most people’s suggestions here when ws ask what they should do.

An ankle bracelet would be saying you can’t go anywhere. I went everywhere I normally would. I just checked in more.

The way I think of it is more the ws saying "you have nothing to worry about. I am going to remove that worry as often as possible."

I will drop away now unless anyone addresses me directly, because I don’t want to argue there is only one way to do this. I am mostly just saying to the OP that I understand why this bothers her and I think it should.

I don’t think it should hurt his feelings - he cheated, he wants to prove his safety, he needs to show up and make her feel safe.

[This message edited by hikingout at 12:49 AM, Friday, February 21st]

Reading the Wayward Side forum, there is a post titled "Gottman and his principles ....", in it DaddyDom had what I think is a really excellent response, that also applies here. I don't know if internal links are allowed or not, so I'll repost it here in quotes:

I remember how things were shortly after D-day. Prior to D-day, we had a marriage, and so, everything we did, we did as a couple. If housework needed to be done or bills had to be paid, we figured that out together. If we needed to make an effort as a couple to change the way we handled things, we did that together. But after the affair, I honestly still had that mindset in my head. *I* had cheated, and yet I still felt that *we* needed to address that and repair it as a couple. And I wanted it to be fixed now. Today. ASAP. The fact that my wife didn't seem to give a shit and wasn't particularly gung-ho to start fixing things and "getting back to normal" flabbergasted me. Imagine that. 20 years together and now she seemed uninterested. Mind boggling. (Not)

Think of it this way. Imagine a guy keys your car. When you confront him, he seems less interested in discussing what he's done to the car or how he's going to make you whole again, and more interested in pointing out the places he noticed that you consistently miss when washing the car. You know, he wants to discuss what YOU did wrong, and the steps you should take to fix it. Considering that this asshole just keyed your car, how open do you think you'll be to discussing your car washing techniques? With him? And taking his advice on how to wash the car he just destroyed? It's not that he's wrong about you missing the spots on the car, but it's completely inappropriate to bring that up to you considering his part in this story.

Post-affair marriage is like that. You fucked up. Why should your spouse give a shit about saving the marriage? Why give a shit about how you feel or what you think she needs to do? Why does she need to make an effort to save the marriage you unilaterally destroyed? Trust me when I tell you that she doesn't give a shit about horsemen or principles or anything else you've read, and she sure as hell isn't interested in your opinion of what "she should be doing". The only thing she may possibly care about is how YOU are handling things post D-day, and how YOU plan to move forward to try and rectify the damage you just did. She needs to see you making an effort. You have no rights right now... not as far as your marriage is concerned. Why? Because you chose to destroy the marriage. Because you made that decision for her. Because you seem to think that the thing you destroyed is salvagable. And you expect her to get right on that.

Look, don't get me wrong. Reading, learning, asking questions, making changes, these are good things, appropriate things, things you SHOULD be doing, and I'm sure your wife is watching. But just like the guy that keyed the car, you have no standing here, your opinion is not needed or wanted, and if you want to fix someone, go fix yourself.

At some point, if you do the work, if you make changes, and if she has a reason to trust those changes, then a door may open for you. If she sees you putting in massive effort, whether she's making an effort or not, then that might sway her to drop her walls a bit. When you are someone capable of being a supportive and loving partner, then you may get the chance. But it will take time. A lot of time. And a lot of effort. And yes, it is 100% worth it. But get that thought out of your head now, the one that is telling you that you still have an equal, balanced marriage in which both parties need to make an effort. That's a recipe for disaster. You threw her and the marriage in the trash. There is no marriage to save because you made sure of that. So you have to start over again, as if you've never met, and create something new together. But that's chapter twelve. You're still on chapter one, if even.

Like I said, you're doing the right things in terms of learning about yourself. Good job, keep that up! It is vital that you start changing the way you think and react, and to do so, you first need to understand WHY and HOW you are broken (what led to you having an affair, and being defensive, and all that) and taking steps to fix that.

Going back to the guy who keyed the car, imagine that, instead of telling how to wash the car, he instead seems really affected by what he did. He promises to repaint the entire car, and he pays for everything without you even having to ask. While the car is in the shop, he gives you his car, and offers to drive you if you want. He takes anger management classes, attends every class, and is active in his efforts to change. He also joins a support group for people with anger issues, and every week, he tells you what he's learned and how he's made changes regarding his new information. Every step of the way, he takes full ownership of what he's done, is truly mortified to his soul that he did what he did, and is hell-bent on being a better person, whether it fixes your car or not, but he still makes sure he does all he can to make you whole. Now, would you perhaps consider forgiving him? Are you at least more likely to forgive him then if he had tried to give you advice about washing the car?

That's where you need to be with your wife. You have to be the one to make the changes, make the effort, take the blame, and show humility, compassion and understanding. Do that, and you might just be surprised at how things can change. Don't do it, and nothing will change. Except that maybe you'll be divorced.

You've got this. You are clearly an intelligent and driven person. That's good. Now you just need to put that effort forth, and do your best to stop trying to control the outcome(s). The outcome you should control is your own. Decide what outcome you want for yourself, and then go do it.