SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

Hi all,

I'm looking for a little advice. First, I want to share that it has been a long time since I experienced betrayal from my ex. The first three years were challenging, but I eventually got through it. I followed the typical suggestions: I picked up hobbies, got in great shape, and leaned on my friends and family. I even ran 100 miles in a month, participated in a charity kickboxing fight, and hammered dating apps—all the clichéd activities a man desperate to rebuild his ego might try. I also turned to self-help books, which proved to be a turning point for me.

Over the next three years, I felt I had healed and moved on. I found a long-term partner, my career flourished, and life was good. However, over the last twelve months, I've found myself dwelling on the past again. While the anger has faded, the feelings surrounding the betrayal linger. I think this introspection is tied to my recent efforts to address the remortgage and transfer of equity to remove my ex from our property. Yes, I know it took me six years to get to this point. Word of warning: don’t buy a property that’s beyond your financial means.

Going through this process led me to read about infidelity. Perhaps it was an attempt to understand what I went through—this is how my mind works—or maybe it was a form of "pain shopping." I suspect this need to delve into the subject stems from a lack of closure. In my case, all I received was denial of infidelity, followed by the breakup, and the truth came out very publicly through friends. I never had a face-to-face admission or an apology; the last communication from her was denial and gaslighting. Regardless, I realize that closure isn't a feasible option for me, and I don't want to pursue that further.

The remortgage completed last month, though it took around eight all in. Thanks to many complicating factors. I expected to feel as if a terrible chapter of my life had closed, but instead, I felt nothing.

As I continued to read about infidelity and hear about others' experiences, I found myself engaged in the topic from a theoretical perspective. Given my past betrayal, I'm not sure if this interest is healthy; it has almost morphed into a hobby. I genuinely believe I have valid insights to contribute, which led me to engage in forums like this one. However, I worry about whether this is truly a healthy pursuit or if it's too close to the bone to be considered a hobby.

Now, to the point at hand: this year, I plan to propose to my partner. I have never felt so romantically fulfilled. We are best friends, we share strong moral alignment, and our sex life is fantastic. As we approach my intended proposal date, I've started to experience a few irrational worries. I know these concerns are baseless, given our relationship—there are no red flags whatsoever.

But haven't we all read stories where everything seemed until along came a spider...

Do you think it would be unreasonable at some point, post-engagement and before marriage, to sit her down and say something like: "I have no doubts about you at all, but my past has left me somewhat damaged. Ahead of marrying you, I’d like to exchange phones and take a deep dive to make sure nothing inappropriate has gone on through our relationship. Just to silence these irrational thoughts"?

Is this a fair request, considering it stems from unfounded fears, or would you suggest I simply try to move past these thoughts?

Thank you for your thoughts.

[This message edited by DRSOOLERS at 12:36 PM, Monday, February 17th]

BH here, so my opinion might not be relevant.

I think asking to see their phone is the worst idea ever.

It is said that when a sentence has the word "but" in it, you should only pay attention to what comes after the "but."

Before engagement, you’re dating. What would have been inappropriate?

Is phone searching going to be an annual ritual?

I think you’re likely to get unengaged.

Your tag says "recovered as I can be."

I think you may not be recovered enough.

I think it’s terribly unfair to go into this knowing you’re going to be always suspicious, irrational or not. Neither of you wants to live like that.

Just before hitting "post" I’m rereading this, and it seems harsh, but I’m not going to change a word.

Before engagement, you’re dating. What would have been inappropriate?

I'm not sure what you mean by this question. We've been in a committed monogamous relationship for 4 years. We've lived together for 3. As such, the same things you'd deem to be inappropriate while married. I'm not wholly sure but are you suggesting pre-engagement less loyalty isn't required of a partner?

I think you’re likely to get unengaged.

If I felt our relationship was so weak that merely presenting my fears was enough to end things, I wouldn't be thinking of marriage in the first place. My worry was not if such a request would lead to a break-up but rather if it was fair to put those irrational fears on her.

With regards to general stance, fair enough. I wasn't dead set either way. Perhaps I shouldn't let the irrational fears win.

Just before hitting "post" I’m rereading this, and it seems harsh, but I’m not going to change a word.

Thanks I guess?

[This message edited by DRSOOLERS at 2:12 PM, Monday, February 17th]

I’m really sorry for everything you’ve been through. Betrayal does a number on the psyche. It’s changed me enough that I wouldn’t have any interest in pursuing another relationship if my husband and I split up. The payoffs for me just wouldn’t be big enough to wade through all the trust issues involved in trying to form a long term relationship with someone else at my stage of life. So I get the anxiety and fear you’re wrestling with as you contemplate entering into a lifelong relationship with another person after being so badly hurt.

That said, in asking for a deep dive into her phone, you’re putting your trust issues on her, which doesn’t feel fair to me. I think it would be healthier to open up a dialogue about where you are, emotionally, and how much you struggle with trust. I think it’s also good to have a very frank conversation about the level of transparency you want and need in a relationship. In my opinion, those kinds of deep, frank conversations will get you much farther than a deep dive into her phone.

I’m sorry about the house situation too, and the lack of closure (which I think you’re right not to pursue, but it still sucks).

Thanks for your input, that exact sort of insight I was looking for:

That said, in asking for a deep dive into her phone, you’re putting your trust issues on her, which doesn’t feel fair to me. I think it would be healthier to open up a dialogue about where you are, emotionally, and how much you struggle with trust. I think it’s also good to have a very frank conversation about the level of transparency you want and need in a relationship. In my opinion, those kinds of deep, frank conversations will get you much farther than a deep dive into her phone.

I do agree with you. It's my issue, my burden to bear. How would you advise such a conversation went? I have no issues being open and honest about my feelings but ultimately I'm not sure mere discussion would rid the irrational fears. I mean they're irrational for a reason.

I suppose a form of validation, in this instance checking ones phone, would necessarily shut those voices up. At least to a degree and for a time, I'd hope. I'm aware this isn't a long term fix for anything.

Yes, I think less loyalty is expected while dating.

But, "committed, monogamous" living together changes that.

I’m not sure she’ll see it as putting your fears on her, but rather as a lack of trust.

If my fiancé had ever said "I’m not sure I trust you", I’d have said "We’re not ready to do this."

This coming from a BH several decades afterD day;
I am still with my WW, had 3 kids and now several beautiful grandchildren. 2 years ago one of my kids experienced infidelity from what now appears a serial cheater. I was immediately thrust back into the affair season. Experiencing the pain, doubt, self loathing, the whole gamut. This time I said to myself I will not go through this alone again. I sought help from Individual Therapy from a counselor with experience in infidelity and betrayal trauma. She helped me describe my thoughts, feelings fears. The help was immeasurable.

I recommend talking to a therapist and being open with your new partner. Avoid anything remotely resembling accusations. A therapist can help you with these conversations. Good luck.

I’m not sure she’ll see it as putting your fears on her, but rather as a lack of trust.

Surely I can simply explain where I'm coming from to allay this worry? I'm not saying I would pursue this option but as recommended above I would certainly being looking to discuss my fears either way. She's an intelligent person, who knows what I've been through and I'm sure she will be able to understand that past traumas can create irrational fears.

It sounds like your recommendation would be to not even discuss my fears on the off-chance she is going to take it the wrong way and not hear me out?

I recommend talking to a therapist and being open with your new partner. Avoid anything remotely resembling accusations. A therapist can help you with these conversations. Good luck.

Therapy is not in my immediate future due to a myriad of reasons that I won't go into at the moment but noted. I would of course be incredibly sensitive to ensure nothing I said came across as an accusations, mainly due the fact my conscious mind knows that there is no nothing to accuse. My rational self has zero doubts. Only my dumb irrational sub-conscious. I'm sure that can be mended with a time. There was a point many years ago where my irrational doubts wouldn't believe you if you told me the sky was blue without checking myself. It's progress.

[This message edited by DRSOOLERS at 2:44 PM, Monday, February 17th]

I second what BOAZ said. If there's one thing I've learned in therapy, its to share your feeling honestly and without projecting your fears onto your partner. It's OK to express your fears, but be honest with your new partner about how you feel and concerns you now carry with you from betrayal. You might be surprised how understanding she may be, and if she has a mature communicative attitude, she'll be able to enter into open dialogue with you over these issues. You may find that she's more supportive than you can imagine. Man how I'd love to have open communication with my WW, but she's not there yet. Vulnerability of both partners is a great thing and builds the trust.

I haven’t had to cross this bridge yet, I’m still in the process of getting divorced. Call me crazy, but phone transparency is something that is pretty commonly advocated for here, in healthy and infidelity-ravaged relationships. Seems like you could just have a conversation with your partner about what norms will be around phone transparency.

I also agree that sharing your emotions is important. Nowhere is it written that you have to suffer in silence. Don’t project those feelings onto your new partner and make her an avatar of your former betrayer. But if your new partner had these kinds of very understandable fears, wouldn’t you want to know? Wouldn’t you want to give her the peace of mind that would cost you nothing by giving phone transparency?

ETA: these emotions coming up long after the fact in light of new events seems like an opportunity for you to keep healing. I hope you take the opportunity.

[This message edited by InkHulk at 3:22 PM, Monday, February 17th]

When a human being is betrayed, the human being is inundated with feelings - anger, grief, fear, shame, and whatever else comes up. Being betrayed replays every other trauma the person experienced.

You do not say that you ever processed your feelings. If that's because you've never done the necessary processing, you've stuffed your feelings, and they've come back to haunt you. The way to heal is to face your feelings and get them out of your body. If that wording doesn't work for you, figure out what metaphor will work.

Theory doesn't help, because most of us do not fit any theory anywhere near close enough for the theory to work for individuals.

Maybe Bigger will come along and describe his process of discovering PTSD 15 years after the fact.

Whether he does or not, your best bet is attend to your feelings.

I expect you need to find a good therapist. Transcending Post Infidelity Stress Disorder(?) by Denis Ortman may help avoid IC, but .... maybe it'll get you into therapy faster than you expect.

BTW, this post is what I meant by 'take a stand' - again, theory doesn't help heal - you have to attend to yourself and what you need.

Hey Doc, I appreciate your analytical approach and writing style. Thinking of your dilemma, I want to go out on a limb and offer something - a bit anti-cultural perhaps - that may give you a line of thought to ponder. If I'm off base just ignore...

I've noticed over my time here that so many people have stated they have "been together for years before legally marrying." In my case, I did not live with my BF for the 4 years we dated, he was literally my "date" for weekends. Then he proposed after I got tired waiting to see what he was going to do and was ready to stop "dating" him. The happy times in our marriage were over by year 4. Yeah, I must have missed an elephant in the room with his personality, but I have OFTEN kicked myself hard for blind spots I had that weren't helped by not having been more intimately linked. When we finally married I was 46 and it was my first "real" marriage not preceded by living together like I did with my 1st husband; my new husband was 39 and never previously married. Our later-life marriage "felt so new" to me, yet he had convincingly hid his true nature from everyone who knew him and had vouched for him the entire time I'd known him!

I think by now you have to know your fiance much better than I knew mine, so I ask: why do you even want to get married at this stage of your relationship? I mean, what's the emotional upside in your estimation? What do you hope to "acquire," since you've already "feasted thoroughly on the banquet of passion and love" that in the old days was forbidden outside of marriage? If you are secure in this relationship so far, it may feel natural to wish it was already a "marriage" BUT...your fears aren't unfounded, as so darn many of us have later learned we never truly knew how the other will react to a change in their identity that marriage brings. As in, people stop trying sometimes. Or feel "trapped" and act out. Or a lot of other previously-undetected aspects of their personality emerge. Family role-playing for example. I know my H thought he had "acquired a wife" and could put her on the shelf after the party was over as he moved on to his next goals in life. He valued the social benefits of marriage more than the person he chose to go through his life with.

So seriously, it sounds like you have recently passed through more trauma-related life changes (the mortgage refi) and naturally are seeking some solid ground to put it all behind you. What I've learned is that solid ground has to be under MY feet. I cannot look to another because honestly we do not own or control anyone but ourselves. And they can always disappoint us. Sorry for the long post but just something to think about. Reader's Digest version: "Why rock the boat?"

If I were your fiancé, I would be worried that the relationship was dysfunctional, in some way, or at least, less than optimal.

How will she not wonder what she might have done that worries you, no matter your reassurances, or how careful she might need to be going forward.

I think you need to conquer your fears. I wish I knew how to do that.

Best wishes.

If I were your fiancé, I would be worried that the relationship was dysfunctional, in some way, or at least, less than optimal.

All relationships are less than optimal. And the worst kind of dysfunction, IMO, is putting on a facade and pretending to be something we aren’t.

OP, you have been scarred by betrayal. The effects are still in your body and heart. Does your new partner not know that part of you?

I can relate.

I ended a 5-year relationship just 4 weeks and 6 days before our planned big wedding after walking in on her having sex with someone that was not me. About 2 years later I met my present wife, and we have been together for over 30 years...

At about our 12-15 years into our marriage I was consumed by fear of her cheating. Extreme jealousy and paranoia leading to serious issues in our marriage. I had the sense of seeking help – I thought to deal with issues from my years in law-enforcement. Instead the IC quickly saw that my issues were more connected to the infidelity incident. Only took a few sessions to fix me (well... as well as I can be mentally fixed...).

My wife knew of my past, but I guess we spent maybe an hour going over it in our early days. Fortunately, we turned out to have the same expectations to marriage and fidelity, so there wasn’t any conflict there. But I should have explained better the effects or consequences of the trauma of infidelity.

I guess we had a pretty normal marriage until the that period where I was 100% certain she was cheating. That didn’t just come out of the blue sky; she was doing stuff that wasn’t good to the marriage, but not cheating. More like the struggles most couples have when accepting that although boundaries might constrain you, they also offer protection.

After IC I opened up to my wife about my past, and how her simply telling me nothing was wrong didn’t cut it. Like I said: my ex was talking about wedding cake and six hours later she’s in bed with OM. We decided to do some major reforms to our marriage – mainly to be totally honest and open with each other.

My wife and I have a no-secret policy, as far as that can go. We both work with confidential data so I can’t be totally open on many work-issues, nor can I access the medical/patient data she deals with. But we have a policy of no lying, and the ability to verify if doubt.

This doesn’t mean I have to know the minute she’s thinking of getting new shoes, or I have to tell her I might get a new fishing-rod, but it does mean that neither of us would hide the actual purchase (or the decision per se).

My suggestion: Be very clear to this woman what you want, and what you expect.

Don’t make it one-sided. Like if you want access to her phone, you better be willing to offer yours.

Definitely talk about fidelity and expectations for the marriage. Be clear on the key issues that lead to divorce: finances and fidelity.

Both be clear on what is allowed to discuss outside the marriage... I guess we all need that one confidant, but in most instances that should be our spouse. On issues that relate to our spouse it might be expected that she confide in her BFF, or you in your brother or friend from college or whatever. Only... make sure you both know what can and can’t be taken outside the marriage, and where the REAL place is to communicate issues.

[This message edited by SI Staff at 4:16 PM, Monday, February 17th]

But if your new partner had these kinds of very understandable fears, wouldn’t you want to know? Wouldn’t you want to give her the peace of mind that would cost you nothing by giving phone transparency?

Here’s the kicker: about three years ago, fairly early in our relationship, she expressed these exact worries. At the time, for whatever reason, I felt secure and didn’t share similar doubts. Likely, it was because the mortgage stress hadn’t yet resurfaced unresolved feelings within me. I volunteered to let her check my phone, although it seemed she was hesitating to ask. I wasn’t offended; my response was essentially, "Take a look, I have nothing to hide." I didn’t even ask to see her phone in return, as I felt no need to at that moment.

She was satisfied with what she found—aside from some light-hearted teasing about my porn search history—and we moved on. I believe she would take a request for phone transparency in stride now, but that’s not the point, is it? I shouldn’t even need to ask. There’s no logical reason to; doing so would mean letting fear win.

You do not say that you ever processed your feelings. If that's because you've never done the necessary processing, you've stuffed your feelings, and they've come back to haunt you.

I've had this theory suggested to me before. All I can say is that I felt as though I processed my emotions. I’m not an especially repressed person; introspection is a trait I value. I didn’t shove my emotions aside and soldier on. I truly grieved. I cried on friends' shoulders, discussed my pain and anger with family, listened to dozens of self-help books, and did the work. I can't be certain it was enough, but it certainly felt like I was healing.

I think by now you have to know your fiance much better than I knew mine, so I ask: why do you even want to get married at this stage of your relationship? I mean, what's the emotional upside in your estimation? What do you hope to "acquire," since you've already "feasted thoroughly on the banquet of passion and love" that in the old days was forbidden outside of marriage?

Thank you for your opinion; it’s certainly valid, and I’m always open to testing my beliefs. The reason I value marriage is about commitment, particularly concerning children. I’m not religious, but I believe it’s important to make a firm commitment to my partner before making the even larger commitment of having kids. Certainly food for thought though

Does your new partner not know that part of you?

She does know this part of me. We have discussed our past traumas and how they have shaped our worldviews. She is aware of my triggers regarding infidelity, and we’ve talked about those at length, along with her own triggers.

Bigger - I don't know what to say. Amazing response, many thanks for that. I imagine I will find myself reading though this several times.

To be clear, given your stance, I'm presuming you'd be pro requesting an open phone policy upfront?

My suggestion: Be very clear to this woman what you want, and what you expect.

I do think we have done this, we discussed at length the value of marriage for two non-religious people. We've both agreed it's something we'd only look to do once and the importance of faithfulness and fidelity. I think generally we are on track for what you've outlined.

[This message edited by DRSOOLERS at 4:43 PM, Monday, February 17th]

I shouldn’t even need to ask. There’s no logical reason to; doing so would mean letting fear win.

You and I seem to share a strong analytical bend. The phrase "trust your gut" had no place in my life before all this. It is illogical, after all. But what that meant to me was I was white knuckling life, trying to use my brain to keep my emotions on check. I personally have given up on that. Humans are emotion machines, even those of us who believe ourselves to be highly analytical or intelligent. Might as well accept it.

Learning to honor your emotions and intuition will lead to a more authentic experience of life, IMO. I’m not insinuating anything about your new partner, but no relationship is 100% guaranteed to be free of betrayal, maybe your discomfort is coming from a signal you are picking up. Or maybe there will be one in the future. To just stuff your emotions with the label of "illogical" is to remove your ability to protect yourself. Some simple "trust but verify" is not at all illogical.

Learning to honor your emotions and intuition will lead to a more authentic experience of life, IMO. I’m not insinuating anything about your new partner, but no relationship is 100% guaranteed to be free of betrayal, maybe your discomfort is coming from a signal you are picking up. Or maybe there will be one in the future. To just stuff your emotions with the label of "illogical" is to remove your ability to protect yourself. Some simple "trust but verify" is not at all illogical

This post almost had me scared, maybe that's a good thing though? I had considered my growing irrational fear could have been signals I'm picking up subconsciously but couldn't quite quantify.

When taking a breath, though this sentiment does scare me, it would too coincidentally align with the mortgage stuff bumbling up past trauma.

It simply can't be a coincidence that my interest in infidelity and fears of it happening again coencided with the mortgage stuff which points me in the direction that these aren't subconscious signals but rather past trauma

Crazier things have happened though.

[This message edited by DRSOOLERS at 4:58 PM, Monday, February 17th]

Another part of human nature that I’ve come to recognize is that we tell ourselves stories that help us compartmentalize and understand our emotions and experiences. You currently have a narrative that the mortgage stirred up something in you. That might be true, it might explain everything. It might not.

Just bringing this back to the opening question: having phone transparency is not an illogical policy in a committed relationship. Needing to be able to verify some information with another human is not illogical. I would say that the idea that if we don’t 100% take someone at their word that our trust of them is somehow deficient, THAT is illogical. Many here, me included, say they will never blindly trust again after intimate betrayal. That makes sense to me

a fun thing about trauma is that when a new trauma comes along(like your property issue now), the old trauma decides its a great time to return for a visit. Perhaps you mostly dealt with the former trauma, but any unresolved issues have decided to rear their ugly heads. Also, with a proposal on the horizon, it seems totally normal that your fight/flight center is working double time to make sure you are safe. This might be why you are suddenly digging into the psychology of cheating - not as a hobby but as a way of controlling these unexpected and unwelcome emotions. (But to SISOON’s points, we must deal with the emotions or they will come back another time, whether we want to or not.)

If IC is not possible (and online IC is an affordable and easy to schedule option compared to in-person), then I think laying all your cards on the table is the best approach. What you went through in the past, how it affected you now, and how it is back due to the property ordeal. Explain how your insecurities from this are affecting you and how you look at the your future together. Your current GF is NOT your ex- but your lizard brain doesn’t know that. Open honest communication will hopefully lead you to a mutual understanding and a plan forward that allows you to get the verification you need to put your mind at ease with a long-term view. My opinion is this should happen pre-proposal. She should know what she is saying "yes" to and have a say in what this M will look like. That is part of the transparency and trust that you are offering.

Best of luck on all accounts!