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Suriving Infidelity Post

It has been about 20 years since DD 1 (September 2024). And I am still struggling and debating whether I once more should attempt to pick at this enormous, ugly scab and see if it can finally heal.

I lost all my other posts after disappearing for a long time, so having to cover some ground here.

In that intervening period shortly after D-Day my wife and I launched an anemic reconciliation in counseling whose final session (of I think roughly 4) consisted of me finally getting some of the answers I wanted involving a start date of the affair and the alleged end. That session ended with us walking to our separate cars and my wife telling me, bitterly, "Oh, and by the way, the sex was great." I responded, "I’m sure it was," (I hadn't even asked any questions about sex, knowing she wouldn't want to discuss it) and then we got in our cars and headed back to our respective work schedules. The first couple of session focused on all of the reasons why she thought she needed to have an affair. To no one’s surprise, it was pretty much my fault for being such a lousy husband.

After that last session, our counselor, with whom I was not so impressed, notified me she was closing down her practice and moving to Hawaii. I didn’t work to find another counselor, and so then we just rugswept it all mostly and got back to the business of raising our five children and trying to make it financially.

A little about the affair: after many years as a SAHM, my wife got involved in grassroots politics and eventually rose through the ranks to a position of some influence (elected by the party grassroots at the semi-annual political convention). This role pared her up in the district she had responsibility for with a male counterpart – a very stupid idea in my opinion that should be done away with – the idea was to have a man and a woman from different parts of the district dealing with the grassroots (a term for the party activists who operate at the ground level).

I didn’t think much of it at first. I trusted my wife, and in fact, I thought if anyone was at risk of an affair, it would be me. But then they started interacting a lot – especially over the telephone. She was really dressing up nicely to go to various meetings they were be attending or participating in around the district. There were plenty of occasions for them to be together. He in fact began offering to give her a ride to the quarterly meetings they would attend. Again, I trusted her.

But after I noticed the more frequent phone calls, I began to question her. She was traveling around the district A LOT – she was not earning any money, in fact this role was costing us a good deal of money, and I was not making enough to handle this, and on top of it I was now expected to raise these 5 kids, who were still allegedly being homeschooled at the time. Eventually I told her the kids had to go to school (by the way all 5 are brilliant, productive adults now with good careers.) So all of them began going to either public or private schools,

While all this was happening, I could feel her pulling away from me. Sex – which had already been infrequent for years (once very month or two) I asked her, "Are you getting too close to this guy" and she insisted no. I remember specifically a conversation with her while she was at one of these quarterly conventions about a year after starting this position, and I just felt like something had died in her on the other end of the phone.

This really then ramped up my suspicions. I began to sleuth through her journals. I find a poem, and here it is:

So,,...here goes:

"You awaken my heart

I never realized it was asleep

My heart yearned and dreamed

and reached for what it

knew was there

My mind denied its existence

Strength, honor, confidence

tender, gentle, uncertain

You take my hand

The full moon fills the sky

Your eyes peer into my soul

And I think, "Beautiful"

You touch me

My life begins again

I let you go yet again one more time

Because the alternative is a trainwreck

My life is a song for you

Every move I make is a dance for you

Every road I take leads back to you

My dreams have wings because of you

You believe in me

I conquer my fears

Because you tell me I'm strong"

Well, given our dynamics, I knew this wasn’t about me. I agonized over this, shared it with my sister, and she, who had gone through her own problems with her marriage, sympathized with both of us, and sought to assure me it was probably just a case of my wife exploring some untapped feelings given this new role, and that she surely isn’t cheating.

But things just kept getting worse. Every time she would leave for her trips it seems we would end up in arguments that seemed to come from nowhere, and she would hurl accusations at me, that I was jealous of her and intimidated by her success and just wanted to hold her back, and I couldn’t just be proud of her, etc., etc., etc. Sex became nonexistent. I am beginning to fall apart. I can’t focus, I’m constantly feeling numb, and I just didn’t know what to do. A cousin of mine had committed suicide by blowing his brains out in his car in front of a hospital emergency room – so that they could harvest his organs. One night I took the shotgun and drove to the hospital, thinking I would just do the same. But then as I pondered it I began to wonder how the kids would be affected. I tried composing a suicide note to explain it all – and realized there was nothing I could write that would ever take away that pain. I just wept, headed back to the house, and sucked it up

One night I was out on the golf course behind our house, looking at the stars, and I saw the constellation Orion, sometimes described as a great hunter, or warrior. I liked the warrior imagery. I felt God telling me it was time to fight for my marriage. I began to pray and resolve it within myself to do just that.

Eventually that brought me to pursue a Christian counselor, who I think literally saved my life, and marriage such as it is. She listened patiently, asked me a few questions, and then suggested a book for me to read, "Love Must be Tough" by James Dobson.

I got the book, read it, and immediately saw myself in its pages. The book deals with spouse, loved ones, etc. Struggling with loved ones who were addicted, in affairs, etc.

The passages on affairs described our experience to a T.

So finally I resolved I would confront. I called my wife, the AP, and his wife all on the same day, told them my concerns, and told them to end any relationship.

The AP wife was incredulous and insisted nothing was going on. The AP did the same, and assured me nothing could be further from the truth. Of course my wife did the same. But I knew better.

So I waited. I knew another quarterly conference was coming up, so I just began to gather evidence, placing a keylogger on her computer (which she discovered fairly quickly, but not after I found some emails.) I gather phone bills and tracked the volume of calls and texts.

And then, when the next quarterly meeting rolled around, I hired a private detective to tail her at the hotel. Of course, they observed her going into his room that night and called me to notify me. Because the conference was three hours away and I had charge of the kids I couldn’t just jump in the car and confront them, and of course I didn’t have their room numbers because the PI refused to give them to me. I confirmed she stayed there all night because I kept ringing her room phone at the top of the hour every hour all night long...while I lay out on the cart path on the golf course writhing in pain, in tears, sick to my stomach.

And then I laid my plan. I knew they would just try to deny it again. I knew my wife’s habits, so when she returned from the trip I secretly grabbed her dirty panties to be sent off for DNA testing. That night she returned, I sat her down, and calmly stated I know what you did, I hired a PI, and you spent the night in this man’s room. You have two choices – we go to counseling and try to repair this marriage, or you leave and go to be with him.

She adamantly denied it, we argued, I collapsed weeping, and finally, tearfully, she acknowledged they had been together, but nothing had happened, which I knew wasn’t true.

I eventually received the PI report a few days after, sent the panties off for testing, and then emailed a copy of the report to the AP partner and said he better get ready for all hell to break loose. He called me immediately, again tried to deny it, and I told him I wanted him to stay the hell away from my wife, forever, or I would convey all of this to his wife and send her the report.

Communication seemed to stop at that point (I know, I should have suspected they got burner phones or some stupid thing). We launched into those fairly useless counseling sessions already mentioned, and then tried to pretend we were married and hang together for the kids sake. I was committed to the marriage, and to her, she less so but working at it...And of course I had to live through the emotional pain of seeing my wife weeping over the end of this relationship repeatedly. It was a complete disaster emotionally. I had foolishly thought she would be immediately remorseful and would rush back into my arms. What a fool I was.

So this continues on until the next quarterly meeting. He knew what my rules were. I find out from a mutual friend that this guy had attended the meeting – but just for the day – and didn’t spend the night.

Too bad for him. I called his wife, gave her the ugly news, she was still in disbelief, but knew I wasn’t lying. And then I told her the awful news – I had actual DNA evidence showing her husband’s sperm on my wife’s panties. That pretty much sealed the deal. I asked her if she wanted the report. She said no. I imagine they had quite the conversation that night.

The next day she calls my wife and rips into her – my wife later tells me about it and I explained what I had done and what I had warned her AP I would do. Dummy.

Then he calls me, and asks me what he needed to do to resolve this. I just told him again, stay the hell away from my wife. He said, well, I would have to resign this position...Not my problem, I said, you just stay the hell away, or worse will happen. Not too much longer afterward he resigned that position and was replaced by another guy I knew but trusted, and of course there was no more riding with other men to the quarterly convention, etc.

Meanwhile, we zombie walk through our marriage for the next few years. We play at the marriage, sometimes we go to dinner and talk. Still no sex, still no real emotional bond. I think this went on for a few years until one night I just told her while we were lying next to each other in bed that I can’t go on like this, and if she didn’t reconnect, including sex, I’m filing for divorce. So eventually, she began to warm up to me, and we resumed a relationship a lot like what had preceded the affair, attempts at romance, occasional sex, and raising our kids.

This continued on for roughly another five years or so, and I think because of shifts the two of us had made emotionally, and spiritually, our marriage grew stronger, our sexual relationship began to heal, and the thoughts of the affair began to recede for me.

Still, I was troubled. My wife had never shown any remorse. There was never any "Oh please, forgive me for what I did to you. I hate that I hurt you so much." Instead, whenever I would broach the subject of remorse her response would be well, you know there were problems in our marriage, etc.

What were those problems? Well, my anger for one. I realize now it was toxic – I got it from growing up with a father who would blow up occasionally with explosive anger – he never beat us or my mom or anything, it was just toxic and ugly, and I learned that when things are stressful, etc., anger was the answer.

So, even before the affair I had begun to reel that in. One great tool was my Christian faith, which I had for many years, but was pretty weak. I began to see God as truly my helper, my good shepherd, the One who could help me whatever situation I faced, whether it was problems at work, my finances, etc.

The second problem was porn, which had become an issue earlier in the marriage as five kids and the pressures of life had taken a toll in the bedroom for her - making sex for her an afterthought at best. She discovered it (porn use) a few times, I was embarrassed and hated what I did, tried, but I did not fully conquer that demon for years. I accept what that did to her, and how that undermined the marriage. For that I do blame myself and I have to accept that in part, I am to blame - not so much the affair - but her sense of hopelessness. I have overcome in that area, but the damage had already been done and then the affair happened. Of course, the toxic stew of the affair, a sexless marriage, my loneliness, just poured gas on that fire for a while, but with God’s help and my emotional and spiritual growth, I’m finally healed. Of course, none of that is an excuse for her affair. She could have put her foot down, insisted I get into counseling and deal with this or be divorced. She had other options, she instead just chose the most painful, hurtful one possible.

So now we have I think a pretty good marriage. We enjoy each other’s company. We go on trips to visit our children. We communicate our love. Our bedroom intimacy is typically weekly. I am healed in many ways.

So my question ..... why won’t this nagging frustration over her lack of explicit remorse, and failure to connect with my pain, my story, go away? Should it? I went to counseling on my own last year just to work through forgiveness. I think I largely have. But then he suggested, well maybe you just need to also forgive your wife for being unable to give you that remorse? Hmmm. Maybe that’s right.

But then I wonder. Did I ever get all the truth. Of course the "sex was great" comment destroyed me....and I imagine that she did things with him she would never contemplate with me. It’s a pretty modest kind of sexual relationship for us.

Her years of deadness and me having to finally demand an emotional reconnection – was that evidence of the affair continuing in some way – even if just in her head? Was this the only affair? She has previously said yes, but I don’t know.

What about the years prior of emotional coolness and detached lovemaking? I craved her, and yet it seemed she could only offer me perfunctory intimacy.....it was like a wall was there I could never penetrate. I remember that when I proposed she had to think about it a day or two.....like a business deal or something. And she couldn’t consummate our marriage on our honeymoon – nerves or something – and yet I knew she wasn’t a virgin, and even had written in her journal one time about the pleasure of giving up her virginity.

So I often think she started marriage with me as a safe, logical choice. But her heart perhaps was never really in it.

Now, it seems it is......or has she finally decided it is what it is and she’s going to make the best of it.

So, question to all you WS, BS, etc. Do I need to pick this scab until I get what I desire....or should I just keep the bandage on, pray for healing, keep leaning into forgiveness, and hope that time heals all wounds? I have to say I feel a lot like Frodo Baggins at the end of Lord of the Rings, where he recognizes that he carries with him a pain that will never heal this side of Eternity, and so he sets sail with the elves to the Undying Lands.

There is much to be thankful for. I am healed of rage, sexual brokeness. We have a good, functioning, loving marriage in many ways. Our kids are adults, with good careers and children of their own. I fought for this marriage in order to save our family, and, really, I have won....thanks to God’s great mercy and help. I went as a warrior into battle, and survived.

Anyway, there it is. Pick the scab? Or just keep that bandage on and continue to heal on my own. Feel free to offer advice or pile on as you think. And thanks for anyone who had the fortitude to read through this whole mess. God bless you all. I'm sorry for anyone who has ended up on this board, but I'm thankful for the hardy souls who have stayed in here and offered so much comfort to the brokenhearted, the wanderers, those all who feel trapped in their poor decisions. We all need His mercy and grace.

[This message edited by JimBetrayed62 at 4:06 AM, Thursday, January 16th]

Hi Jim,

It seems clear that you are in "limbo", and have been for quite a while. That describes me as well. Many (most?) here believe there cannot be true reconciliation without remorse, and your wife does not appear to have shown any. That "Sex was great" comment was pure evil. I'd like to say if I heard that I'd have hit the eject button immediately, but life can get pretty complicated when there are children involved. Even after the children are grown a whole new level of complication arrives, as we reach retirement age. The prospect of ending up alone with diminished finances is not fun to contemplate. Do we stick it out in marriages that are OK on many levels, or risk it all with the hope of finding real love? Wish I had an answer for that one.

Your scab analogy is fitting, in many ways. Do we pick at them and feel more pain, even risk infection? Where the analogy fails - a physical wound would be long healed after 20 years. We might have a scar, so never really forget but that urge to pick should be pretty much completely gone. Yet, your scab remains and it sounds like you've done enough introspection to recognize why.

Thank you for the well written story. I would say it was a pleasure to read, but for the torturous reality of the content.

I find myself in a moment of limbo just a few months after DDay. My wife is "committed to the marriage" and "loves me" but she doesn't yet see a future with me, she "doesn't know" what she actually wants long-term.

I do not wish to imagine having this feeling many years later, reconciliation or not.

Yesterday I told her she needed to "shit or get off the pot". But although I mean that, I still greatly fear losing her.

We have 4 kids (they'll all be adults in a few years) and I think only of the example we will set for them should we decide to divorce or reconcile.

Our financials are shit, but I don't really care. If divorce is best for me emotionally, that's what I'll do. I will live in a box on the side of a road before I stay in a loveless marriage.

I guess what I'm trying to say to you is this. I think I understand where you are, and it scares me. I'm happy you maintained your marriage, but I don't envy your position.

Just before writing this, I was wondering why I hadn't heard from my wife for the last 6 hours. The reason? She was "busy". Now she's driving to another meeting and will talk to me when she gets home hours from now. Who does that, I wonder? A remorseful spouse? It doesn't seem like something I would do if I were in her shoes.

Your post weighs heavy on me, JimBetrayed62. Like a ghost of Christmas future.

[This message edited by 4characters at 10:59 PM, Wednesday, January 15th]

4characters:

Wow. I’m sorry this had that effect for you/

"Your post weighs heavy on me, JimBetrayed62. Like a ghost of Christmas future."

In your case it’s still early days. I wouldn’t have stayed in this marriage this long if I didn’t see true positive development, and I believe you still have the potential for that. I think I could live with what we have and work to make it stronger - but part of me wonders that if she could finally make that shift it would free up some of her emotional logjam that comes I believe from her upbringing, particularly her mother, who basically is Exhibit A for shame-based parenting. I think my wife has deep fears of admitting guilt or being accountable for that reason.

I will pray you see some light at the end of the tunnel soon.

[This message edited by JimBetrayed62 at 12:38 AM, Thursday, January 16th]

I'm so sorry you are back and still haunted by this. I believe it is due to your WW's lack of remorse that you cannot heal fully. My dad is still haunted by my mom's A's. It has been 30+ years since their last D-Day and their M has never been the same. My own M was never the same after my xWS's many affairs and lack of remorse. I am thankful I divorced when I did as I could see myself having been miserable for the rest of my life. That was my wake-up call.

Maybe you can both go back to therapy to discuss your current feelings and how she handled the aftermath of her A, how it has affected you and how you still feel about it.

Thanks crazyblindside

"Maybe you can both go back to therapy to discuss your current feelings and how she handled the aftermath of her A, how it has affected you and how you still feel about it."

Yeah - need to pray long and hard about that. We actually are in counseling on a separate topic - so I need to pray about whether to bring it up. If it can move the ball forward, I suppose it will be worth it. Not sure whether this counselor would be useful for that conversation or not.

Sure am sorry to read about your experience. I hope you continue to heal.

How do you think she would respond if you told her honestly that her blame shifting and lack of remorse still bother you, and that her comment about the sex hurt you deeply in a way that you haven’t fully recovered from?

It sounds like your relationship has experienced at least some growth and positive change, even if there’s been some rugsweeping and unresolved pain. If you plan to remain in the relationship, I think I’d risk the scab picking in the hope of getting somewhere better and healthier and more fulfilling.

Grieving:

How do you think she would respond if you told her honestly that her blame shifting and lack of remorse still bother you, and that her comment about the sex hurt you deeply in a way that you haven’t fully recovered from

Not sure. I know that the problem is that previous attempts at conveying those thoughts were met with comments like "well you had hurt me as well."

So at least to this point she just has not been able to separate her pain from mine and understand it.

Still, I don’t fear her doing this again, and we do show love to each other, so maybe this is one instance where I just have to accept where we are. I know what would happen were she ever to cheat again, and my response would be immediately to divorce and not look back.

I do think the one big lesson for me and perhaps others is to insist on counseling that separates and demands accountability and remorse for the affair early on, without entangling it in a MC approach that deals with all the problems that created hurt leading up to the affair. Sadly, I allowed us to jump right into counseling and mix all of that together.

IMHO affairs truly do stand apart as an intentional breach in the marriage that for all intents and purposes represents one party’s termination of the marriage. I should have told her to pack her things, move in with her parents, and then start the divorce process … depending on how she responded perhaps reconciliation could be attempted. Instead, in order to shield our kids from our own misery, i opted for immediately attempting reconciliation with some sub-par counseling - which laid the uneven foundation for where we are today. I do believe that our kids were the beneficiaries of our commitment to stay with each other - they knew there were tensions, and my eldest son knew something inappropriate was going on with the AP, and clearly saw that he disappeared rather quickly from the scene. So I don’t know. As one of the men stated above, children complicate things. I think our choice yielded some healthy, well-adjusted children who didn’t have to endure a broken home, but it’s quite possible that if we were adult enough to stitch together a functional marriage despite this, that we would have been able to manage divorce and co-parenting in a similarly effective way.

Hi Jim, thank you for sharing your story.

I think you’re blending two separate issues- your own healing and reconciliation. God is truly great and does help us heal. But reconciliation with another person requires the work of two. I think you are feeling that your healing alone can restore your marriage but it can’t. It’s a great start- as you are now a more whole, healthy person who can take on the challenge of R. But true R requires the work of both parties. It doesn’t sound like your wife has done her own work, especially if she still holds any blame towards you. No matter how bad a marriage is, cheating is a sole selfish action that completely destroys a relationship and is never the fault of the BS. I think her lack of remorse will always be a wall in your marriage. That scab of yours is infected and you do need to rip it off and clean it out.

** Member to Member **

I have a different take. What stands out to me are 2 things:

1) you say you rugswept; and
2) you ask us questions that only you or your W can answer.

I read you to say that you're still in pain because of what your W has and hasn't said and done. You say you avoided some topics because you didn't want the response you expected.

You say you're both in counseling because of another issue - but my bet is that you won't really resolve that without dealing with the A, the issue that you avoid dealing with.

My reco is IC for you, with a good IC. I recommend setting a goal of processing your thoughts and feelings from your W's A and mistreatment of you and deciding between asking your W to help resolve the A-related issues an letting the A-related issues go.

You still can D; there's no statute of limitations for Ms.

Sisoon:

You say you're both in counseling because of another issue - but my bet is that you won't really resolve that without dealing with the A, the issue that you avoid dealing with.

My reco is IC for you, with a good IC. I recommend setting a goal of processing your thoughts and feelings from your W's A and mistreatment of you and deciding between asking your W to help resolve the A-related issues an letting the A-related issues go.

Thanks. I agree - the issue at hand in counseling are some tensions that have arisen because my older brother - with whom I’ve always been close - has moved to be near us - she fears being supplanted as I revert to my old role as big brother’s wingman.

Funny, she actually brought up the affair as part of our background discussion with counselor - but it seems that was an attempt to safely lay it on the table as an accepted and healed part of our past - but not something to revisit.

I do think I need to find an IC who is very familiar with infidelity and treats it separately from general MC

I do think I need to find an IC who is very familiar with infidelity and treats it separately from general MC

I guess I was lucky in the MC department — it turned out the reason my MC listed infidelity as an expertise, was because he was a betrayed spouse. His M didn’t make it, he wanted R, his WS didn’t, so he was very real with his advice and didn’t promise us any outcome.

The upside was, he held my wife accountable, and gave her room to own her choices and figure out her own issues. MC who also helped us with working on other M issues, like communication and kept the choice to go outside of the M as a separate issue.

In my case, I used our MC for IC, which eventually just became a me venting fest, which I could do for free here on SI. Good IC though I only went a few months.

The only person who gets to decide they are healed from infidelity is the person who was damaged by it — your wife doesn’t get a vote on that, at all in any way.

JimBetrayed62

Anyway, there it is. Pick the scab? Or just keep that bandage on and continue to heal on my own. Feel free to offer advice or pile on as you think.

Not sure I can offer any succinct advice but am posting more to just let you know you're not alone. My situation is very similar. The differences are that we were not married at the time, only engaged, so no kids. Knowing full well that she was engaged and in a committed relationship, the POS AP kept asking her out until she relented. Once I caught her, she pretty much flaunted it in my face. She had fallen hard for him and constantly told me how great the POS was. I thought she had stopped fucking him and ended the relationship, until about 18 months on I caught him in her apartment. To my dismay, she had put me through 18 months of false reconciliation.

Soon after, she left the relationship with me and moved in with the bastard. This lasted almost exactly two years until she began contacting me and coming by my place. Soon she moved back in with her parents, and we resumed our relationship. But less than a month into our new relationship she announced that she was going to an out-of-town family reunion, and she was going to visit the POS and he was going to the reunion with her. Now why in hell would anyone want someone they had just broken up with to go with them to their family reunion? Well, I have never gotten an answer to that! (In hindsight, I should have told her either she had to be 100% no contact with the POS or I was done...)

I should have seen it at the time, but it was indicative that she hadn't and never would show any real remorse for all the cheating and deception. (This was not her first rodeo cheating on me. That's my fault for continuing to give her chances, I suppose. ) Like you, I don't believe she has ever really been remorseful about her massive betrayal. As evidence, she hates the subject being brought up and gets really resentful and defensive if I attempt to talk about it. The problem was, we pretty much rug swept it all at the time we got back together. I guess I was OK to do that because I was just happy to be back with her. With her unwillingness to rationally discuss the issue, I've kind of withdrawn from the relationship a bit. (We had gone on to get married about two years after we got back together.)

Same as you, I just feel there has been little or no real remorse and just feel a void where all my feelings lie. For now, I have quit trying to discuss it with her and reconcile the trauma. I have been putting together a list of questions for her, which she knows about, and all she will say is "just give me the questions!" if I try to discuss it. It's been over a year since I've even brought it up because I guess I just don't want the stress of trying to find the way to complete healing. (But I also have other issues surrounding stress and depression, business issues, etc. Relationship history is not my only demon. )

The solution I have devised inside my head is to finish the list of questions (of which there are over 100), complete a narrative explaining to her how her long ago actions hurt me, present it all to her, and hopefully get the dialog going again.

Also, in the backdrop to all this is that I firmly believe the POS was likely a covert narcissist who pushed and pulled her like anyone would in a narcissistic relationship (love bombing, glorifying, abandoning). Meanwhile, she had fallen into limerence with the POS. I think she kept me around only as a backup plan. She tells me that he got very jealous thinking she might be spending time with me. One of my questions for her will be why he would be jealous, after all, he knew he was dating a cheater the minute she said yes to him. Although I don't know for sure, he was likely cheating on her the whole time as well.

Because of things that have come to light over the years, I believe she truly wanted to spend her life with him, but she couldn't get him to give a damn about her. (After all, a narcissist will eventually abandon...) I also believe that her motive for insisting he attend that family reunion with her was to get him to care and hopefully he would ask her to move to his new location with him. If she'd been successful, I likely would never have heard from her again.

I'll wind this down before it becomes a thread hijack...

Conclusions: Like you, I've never felt true remorse from her. My plan is to eventually finish my narrative and questions and present them to her in hopes of helping her understand the damage and open a dialog. I am dabbling in IC for this, and other issues, and this plan has my IC's blessing. I just have to stop procrastinating and do it. My advice to you might be to consider doing the same and get your feelings and questions in writing. That makes it easier for her to open up, as she can read and consider the questions in her own time without the pressure of a tense in-person discussion.

Not to cause anyone to lose hope of ever being healed, but all this happened around 40 years ago! Yes, infidelity trauma can be for a lifetime...

[This message edited by Adolfo at 2:53 AM, Friday, January 17th]

I am mostly in the same boat except I don’t have to deal with a PA or the honeymoon debacle or the poem or an unenthusiastic sex life. I do have her manifesto where she says to EA partner that she now realizes that she made a great mistake (must be me) and two fawning letters. We also rugswept and we also have settled into a marriage that by any objective measure is very good. After the last scab picking episode, which took place on the occasion of our 50th anniversary, I decided that she is so averse to feeling guilty that I will never get an apology or any expression of remorse by my initiating the conversation. But I will get bitten by the cornered animal that my wife turns into when I bring up her betrayal, aka DARVO. So, I am leaning toward the don’t pick a scab option and instead to try to forgive her inability to accept guilt. Thanks to your therapist for that notion.

You have to decide this for yourself. I fully understand the urge to know her whys and to be comforted by a contrite spouse. But you have to ask yourself if that is likely to happen, and if it doesn’t are you prepared to walk away from your current situation? I am not. So why ask a question whose answer may destroy you all over again when you aren’t going to act on that answer anyway? BTW, I think my wife’s whys are wrapped up in "What if I hadn’t pursued the Mommy path and instead became a mover and shaker career person?" Her EA was her peering into that alternate life. Your wife’s poem seemed to me to be an embodiment of the same. Maybe even the honeymoon was tainted by her doubts about her chosen path. Whatever you choose to do, you take my best wishes and hopes.

Your scab analogy is fitting, in many ways. Do we pick at them and feel more pain, even risk infection? Where the analogy fails - a physical wound would be long healed after 20 years. We might have a scar, so never really forget but that urge to pick should be pretty much completely gone. Yet, your scab remains and it sounds like you've done enough introspection to recognize why.

Thanks Myshovel:

I think you hit the nail on the head - this scab remains after all this time because it never healed - and it’s not going to heal on its own. Somehow or other, I will have to deal with this.

Thanks Adolfo - this spoke to me:

Conclusions: Like you, I've never felt true remorse from her. My plan is to eventually finish my narrative and questions and present them to her in hopes of helping her understand the damage and open a dialog. I am dabbling in IC for this, and other issues, and this plan has my IC's blessing. I just have to stop procrastinating and do it. My advice to you might be to consider doing the same and get your feelings and questions in writing. That makes it easier for her to open up, as she can read and consider the questions in her own time without the pressure of a tense in-person discussion.

I am going to explore that with the appropriate counselor.

Thanks notsogreatexpectations:

Your comment is truly the decision:

You have to decide this for yourself. I fully understand the urge to know her whys and to be comforted by a contrite spouse. But you have to ask yourself if that is likely to happen, and if it doesn’t are you prepared to walk away from your current situation?

I am going to take one more constructive attempt at this, preceded by ample prayer. I believe prayer and action may finally bust this logjam, and perhaps finally bring some healing for her as well.

OK ... if you are going to stay no matter what, then my reco is use IC to make a mindful decision to give your WS all the passes that she needs for you to be OK with your choice.

What I or anybody else thinks about staying isn't relevant. It's a valid choice if you've made a conscious decision that it's the best path for you. No recriminations needed.