SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

As I’ve stated, as a Christian I am putting my faith in God that He can see such things and will be my protector.

Did it ever occur to you that He just may be trying to reach you via a rather obnoxious Internet character who goes by WontBeFooledAgain

Seriously Friend, by not insisting on knowing all secrets between WW and OM you are in fact RUGSWEEPING. Get out your shot glass and Scotch.

Seriously, He put SI in your path for a reason, and this includes all of us who have been telling you stuff you find challenging to read. (Nothing special about me)

If you ask, she answers honestly. Period point blank.

This is effectively the ground rules put down in MC this week. I know, it’s been so fucking long, it’s crazy that we’re still talking about it. She has spoken of agreeing to this as "arguing with the Holy Spirit" and coming to a place of surrender. We’ll see.

It isn't wise??? Excuse me for being harsh, but she doesn't get to decide what you need to know. Her saying it isn't wise rubs me the wrong way. She's saying you don't know what you need. She's saying you're not as smart as she is,and she knows better. She's saying her judgment is better than yours. It's highly insulting. If a BS asks its because they want to know. It's the WS job to be honest and transparent. Hasn't she hidden enough from you??

Recall our last MC basically shielded her, and Gottman has provided an ally to every wayward out there to back up this kind of thinking. The company line at SI is not universally accepted, my friend. I don’t give a shit about that, my stubborn streak extends beyond arguing with OG’s, I’m uncompromising on this. But it doesn’t surprise me that she would say this.

Also,I don't remember exactly how you said it, but the MC insists on full transparency and honesty in their office,and your wife knew if this question was asked in MC,she would be told to answer it. So why put it off?

I believe she is sticking pretty strongly to the Gottman position of some details being unhelpful to the betrayed, and I think she anticipated the effect of this particular detail. I am going to remember Seniorita for the rest of my life and hate it, no question. Doesn’t matter, This0Is0Fine explained it so well in a different thread, that just because a theft hasn’t been discovered yet doesn’t mean the money isn’t gone. The damage is done, I’m just surveying now. We in this community dedicated to surviving infidelity have given immense thought to all these issues, few others would have.

I know some here say maybe she forgot about the songs. But she didn't. She admitted that.

It was not a matter of forgetting. I think she categorized the emotional impact of this in with explicit sexual details. A stretch, but it’s close.

Most women are sentimental, and remember these kinds of things. Hell,I remember the first song I danced to in junior high, with my crush. I remember "our song" with my first love. I remember where I was,and what I was dealing with emotionally,when I hear certain songs. I was curious,and asked my close friends. They agree,as they have the same memories of certain songs.

Do you recall her listening to these songs since dday?

No, I don’t recall her listening to these. I haven’t heard Seniorita in a long time. Cowboy take me away has probably come on, we listen to the Chicks a decent amount, but nothing sends my spidey sense up that she was reveling in it. I asked her how she felt when these songs came on, she said she felt ashamed. Right answer, I hope it’s true.

I know you are content to stay,as long as she shows progress. Even if it is at a snail's pace. I just pray,that it pays off for you. I'm concerned that,by the time she gets it,and stops all the lies, you won't be ok. It's torture. It's abusive. That takes its toll.

I know few are more qualified to say this than you. And I also know that you know better than most the agony of the decision. I would not use the word content, it brings up images of me pretending things are fine and that I just want a facade of a marriage and family. I am still seeing enough progress to genuinely impress me and give me hope. I even feel quite loved many days. This all sucks. We all make our choices.

I know some don't like my perspective. Hell, some have dedicated entire posts,in other forums,slamming everything I tend to say. That's ok. Their opinions are no more important than mine.

If all I ever got out of SI was the chance to interact with you, it would have been a treasure. Thanks for all your wisdom and care and courage.

I noted 11 comments that I wanted to respond to and then came to this:

I’m 5 months out from D-Day 2, of course I think she’d lie to me, trust is being rebuilt. I have asked the deal breaker questions, multiple times. I am going to ask the questions to help me move forward, I just dread it. Help me again see what is wrong with any of that.

OK.

Well, at maybe 9 months out, my W told me it took her 5 months to begin to be remorseful (i.e. willing to change). Further, it was only after that, she said, that she saw her A as a garden-variety sordid A. So that's what's wrong with ... wait! Now, how do I demonstrate what he's doing wrong ...?

At 5 months I believed that everything that my W had told me about her A (including that I knew all) was true even while I thought she might lie again. I had no trouble and see no internal conflict between believing what someone said during a specific period on a specific topic and not trusting that they were committed to being truthful.

This thread reads like you're scared of the truth, but you don't think she'd give it to you anyway.

I think that may be true. If it is, you're doing yourself a disservice. If it's not true, you're guilty of not writing exactly what you mean. Personally, I've BTDT, so that makes at least 2 of us.

You should not trust someone who tells you 'it's not wise' for you to be asking questions you need to know answers to

But IH doesn't trust his W....

--and who will only answer tough questions when called out by MC

your wife knew if this question was asked in MC,she would be told to answer it. So why put it off?

My W asked me to defer several questions to MC sessions during year 1. She wanted the support of her IC/our MC when she revealed the answers. I didn't fault her for that - I got the answers, and I doubt either of us suffered any damage for waiting.

And, you DO NEED to get out whatever other secrets WW has with OM even if you don't feel the want to do so. Your WW CANNOT have any secrets with OM when this process is done. That is like a warm ember in the asses, it needs to be put out cold.

I disagree with this, because I'm sure stuff went on between everyone's WSes and their aps that the BS doesn't know about. You just can't know everything. I think it's best for BSes to ask what they want to know.

After d-day, my W heard that she should tell me of new memories about the A, so she did, as the memories occurred. Nothing she remembered moved me. That's just me, though. I don't know how IH would respond.

I personally will now be more suspicious of everyone in the world, that will be a legacy of infidelity to me.

Really? You sound like someone who usually checked out what you were told, even before the A.

*****

NOTE: I'm not saying R is in the bag for IH. I can't predict my own future, much less someone I know only from posts on the 'net.

I'm just saying that IH may be looks to me as if he IS on his healing path and possibly on the path to R, too.

He's not doing exactly what I did. That might be a giant problem ... if he were me.

[This message edited by SI Staff at 7:33 PM, Saturday, November 11th]

I didn't fault her for that - I got the answers, and I doubt either of us suffered any damage for waiting.

Ok. That worked for you. That wouldn't work for ME. I'm sure that would work for many members here. And,I'm sure it wouldn't work for just as many.

For some, when we ask we want the answer. We don't want to wait. We want the support and honesty from our WS when we ask the question. It was very kind of you to want your wife to feel supported when she told the truth. For ME,I want to feel supported by my spouse when I finally ask a question that's been bothering me for awhile.

I'm glad waiting didn't damage you. For me? It would cause me further damage. I would feel my ws felt their need to feel supported by a 3rd party, was more important than my need to know wth had happened during my marriage.

What works for one,may not work for another.

IH seems to welcome both perspectives.

Yeahno, if I were to R, my partner keeping secrets w OM, would NOT work for me either. Hard pass. Just because it was OK for you @sisoon, does NOT mean it would work for most other people. And it certainly does NOT mean that allowing WW to keep secrets is a good idea.

[This message edited by WontBeFooledAgai at 10:37 PM, Saturday, November 11th]

Hi InkHulk

I thought back on that time when you were briefly done with your wife, and said you didn’t want her anymore.

Disclosures she makes which are done in an earnest attempt to be a trustworthy and honest person, are unlikely to take you back there. They will hurt, but not in that down tools, why bother, have I been conned again, kind of way. That is unless there is some colossally bad new disclosure like new affairs, which I don’t expect is likely.

It’s the Wayward behaviours that would take you back to ground zero, the behaviours which got her into and kept her escalating, engaging and then hiding that mess, that will kill progress.

Daddy Dom posts eloquently about doing things in everyday life to get in the habit of more than average honesty. Like correcting even white lies made to work colleagues.

Is your wife doing something like that and sharing it with you?

"I don't want to be right"

Luther Ingram

It isn't wise??? Excuse me for being harsh, but she doesn't get to decide what you need to know. Her saying it isn't wise rubs me the wrong way.

I have given your WW a lot of grace based on my own mess and where you two are at in this process. That said, I agree with Hellfire here.

I am pretty sure that I have said before that the way we could was to leave no stone unturned. That meant if he had a question I answered it with honesty. If I thought of pertinent details I willingly shared them.

My husband was not the type that could wait. If something was on his mind he needed to discuss it right away. I didn’t always have the answers, or at least the ones he wanted. Sometimes I had to tell him I wasn’t sure (like dates) and research and circle back around, but if I ever told him it wasn’t wise I am pretty sure we would not be here having this conversation.

We had to have some discussions regarding music as well. I had to go through our iTunes playlists and delete any songs that seemed affair related and any songs I may have used to connect with my affair. I will tell you I had no idea how many songs are about being unfaithful. Something we learned is that we listen to music differently. My husband is very lyric driven by music. I on the other hand am very beat driven.

I actively started making new playlists. I have become much more aware of lyrics, although the beat is still primary for me. Adele got us through some tough times! I am still driven to a lot of healing songs and have them on my Spotify favorites.

I hope that she is taking initiative to right the wrong. But I also think she needs to get better at letting you decide what you need to know and what you don’t. She’s made too many unilateral decisions in this marriage. It’s time for her to trust that you know what you need.

For some, when we ask we want the answer. We don't want to wait. We want the support and honesty from our WS when we ask the question. It was very kind of you to want your wife to feel supported when she told the truth. For ME,I want to feel supported by my spouse when I finally ask a question that's been bothering me for awhile.

When trying to resolve an apparent contradiction, one way to do that is try to find a way to seperate the competing sides in space or time. I’ve leveraged time a lot, I’ve used it as a resource. In the beginning, I fired questions at her rapidly and without strategy. It vented me, and it crushed her. It was totally unsustainable. Time was the only way to make the situation tolerable for both of us. And that did indeed mean I had to learn to sit with things. I took the approach of writing my questions down, it helped to settle my mind temporarily. And my personal healing has come along really well with this approach, even without knowing everything and what I do know coming delayed. I’m not telling everyone what to do, I’m just putting a data point out there.

I personally will now be more suspicious of everyone in the world, that will be a legacy of infidelity to me.

Really? You sound like someone who usually checked out what you were told, even before the A.

I have always been one to insist that an argument had to make sense to me. That is pretty different than what I’m assuming about the intentions of people I’m interacting with. I’m not saying I’m going to think everyone in the world is awful all the time. But I genuinely trusted my wife completely. In retrospect, I probably never should have done that, but it was a pleasant naïveté, a brighter look at the world than what I’ll have going forward.

Yeahno, if I were to R, my partner keeping secrets w OM, would NOT work for me either. Hard pass. Just because it was OK for you @sisoon, does NOT mean it would work for most other people. And it certainly does NOT mean that allowing WW to keep secrets is a good idea.

You demand some kind of metaphysical certainty of every last secret being told, and you also insist that it is both necessary and useful. Let’s talk about those things.

First certainty - how do you propose creating this wonderful security blanket? Because I’m sure law enforcement and militaries around the world would love to have these methods to extract knowledge from a person that doesn’t want to give it and be ensured they got everything. People literally resort to torturing others in the pursuit of this. I’m not planning on that, so you have better ideas?

Now necessity - what purpose does this serve in your mind? To safe guard that the A won’t reignite? Could happen, I judge it a very low risk at this point, too much scrutiny. I genuinely believe she views him quite negatively at this point. There is what is for me, there is what is for her, and there is what is for Us. For me, it’s what I’ve been saying, the areas that bother me, and I’m content to keep it to that. For her, if she feels a need to get things off her chest, I would listen. And for Us: I’m less sure, but my judgment is we’ve been swimming in sewage for a long damn time now, we also have lives and kids, spending our energies on them and a future sounds useful.

All of this rests on an assumption of good will and honesty and love. If that is present (in both of us), I believe we will make it on the current path we are on. If it is not, no amount of cross examination is going to put us on the right track. And I intend to judge using my heart and gut over time whether that is a good assumption.

Daddy Dom posts eloquently about doing things in everyday life to get in the habit of more than average honesty. Like correcting even white lies made to work colleagues.

Is your wife doing something like that and sharing it with you?

Yes, she is actively pushing back against her people pleasing tendencies by mindfully asserting herself. In her cascade of why’s, people pleasing is prominent. Yes, she as an adult woman fully chose to do what she did. And it is also true that she was playing out her people pleaser chameleon role to a T in refusing to uphold boundaries as OM challenged them one by one. She talks about it a lot, I see evidence of action in it. It is a necessary change.

I am sorry InkHulk but you are using a strawman argument. Just because I'd insist on no secrets between WW and OM doesn't mean I'd claim to know with 100.000% certainty what another person is thinking.

How well is your way working. Really. Your WW is STILL making decisions on what is wise for you to know. After all this time! It's your life...

[This message edited by WontBeFooledAgai at 9:32 PM, Sunday, November 12th]

I am sorry InkHulk but you are using a strawman argument. Just because I'd insist on no secrets between WW and OM doesn't mean I'd claim to know with 100.000% certainty what another person is thinking.

Nah dude, you aren’t going to dismiss me that easily. You are trying to give deep advice in waters you haven’t navigated. These matters are of immense real life importance to me, no straw men to be found here. If she, or any former wayward, chooses to bury a secret flame, then they will and it will work, regardless of our raging. I’ve accepted that, you can choose not to if you want. My standard is that I am loved, feel loved. If she can somehow hold a flame for the asshole plus make me feel loved for the rest of my life, I guess I’m going to live with that.

How well is your way working. Really. Your WW is STILL making decisions on what is wise for you to know. After all this time! It's your life...

I think it’s going pretty well, like I’ve said. Many times. But it’s hard and complicated and takes a long time.

You demand some kind of metaphysical certainty of every last secret being told, and you also insist that it is both necessary and useful. Let’s talk about those things.

First certainty - how do you propose creating this wonderful security blanket? Because I’m sure law enforcement and militaries around the world would love to have these methods to extract knowledge from a person that doesn’t want to give it and be ensured they got everything. People literally resort to torturing others in the pursuit of this. I’m not planning on that, so you have better ideas?

Alright I will answer this question directly: You'd be on the road to clarity if at least....She WILLINGLY ANSWERS YOUR QUESTIONS, WHEN ASKED BY YOU. I suppose that it isn't 'foolproof' per se--there could be something she wouldn't answer you just haven't found that question yet--but if she were open, it would be a very good sign. I mean, if she would tell you something freely then is it really a secret.

You don't have that right now though, by your own admission. You even said yourself in your above post something about extracting knowledge from someone who doesn't want to give it. And to make it worse, you are standing up for your WW's subpar efforts.

[This message edited by WontBeFooledAgai at 1:55 PM, Monday, November 13th]

How many secrets do you think most spouses have…even in the absence of infidelity? And doesn’t language leave soooo much room for interpretation. When a 70 year old spouse says to the other 70 year old spouse you are so beautiful they probably mean it in the best possible way, in the totality of being beautiful, inside, outside everything else. But maybe they are responding to the other spouse saying "i don’t feel beautiful anymore" and that spouse meant beautiful in the old traditional way (symmetric, smooth, unlined, youthful, perfect measurements, perky). But the other spouse chooses to shift the meaning in an act of love and generosity and kindness. Is that lying? It seems like the answer to why IH’s wife wouldn’t want to tell him about Senorita is so deep inside of her it is going to take a long time to figure it out. Was it more due to loving him and not wanting to cause him pain or not wanting to be held accountable for her worst moments as a human being. Or is it both? Or is it one some days and the other on other days? I am not religious at all, but maybe it comes down to that Christian concept of us all being sinners at the deepest level and constantly struggling to redeem ourselves. If this doesn’t seem muddy and confusing to WBFA then I am pretty envious of you. To see the world in such clear terms must be wonderful. How do you know that you are not being naive? Our brains are just one big mush of primitive influences and more enlightened cognitive abilities flipping back and forth with only the most modest ability to control those transitions. We are a self-protective species by nature. I guess I am just sadly in IH’s situation myself. I am also watching my spouses struggle to become that better person. He sees it now, sees how selfish he has been, how much more concerned he has been with his own feelings at the expense of my feelings. But he slips back to the selfish person over and over again. As long as he is fighting it I feel like I need to keep giving him time. Maybe WBFA is right and we are missing the fact that it shouldn’t be so hard to do the right thing. The fact that this is the father of my children is definitely playing into the whole thing, I don’t know if that is part of it for IH too. I read those lyrics to Senorita. I wouldn’t have wanted to tell IH that. I honestly might never have done it. I agree he a right to know but it is like having a right to have your face permanently disfigured. Do you really want to grant someone that right. How do you you ever wash away that pain?

I don't know, it's not about it being hard for InkHulk's WW to confess about "Semorita" or this song or that song or whatever, of course it is hard. The question is whether she shows courage in the moment and answers InkHulk's question, instead of putting herself and her agenda first and telling him "it's not wise". WTF.

Yes people slip up but I seriously hope both InkHulk and WW realize that her "it's not wise" was simply THE WRONG thing to say.

And NO, you do not need to "navigate certain waters"--whatever that means, I was cheated on too--to have a strong sense that someone is being railroaded.

I totally agree with this:

depending on the length of the affair I don’t think cheaters necessarily leave out info, but rather forget details or their importance unless directly asked. There are legitimate relationships in my life that have details I forget unless asked. "Did your XYZ with an old BF?" Hmm… you know what, I did. I’d forgotten about that. In my opinion, it would be impossible for cheaters to disclose every mundane detail about their affair without being directly asked to remember. "Did she wear sexy lingerie for you?" (Yes, I asked) he described it to me when asked, but he never thought of it as something that mattered therefore didn’t "volunteer" the info until asked. I don’t think your wife was lying by omission, but perhaps had forgotten, wasn’t thinking it was relevant, etc. in long affairs there is no way to actually be told every little mundane conversation or detail. At some point I had to quit asking questions, because the new info was serving me no purpose, but to hurt more.

All that aside, my WH and AP did not have a "song" that I am aware of. I'm guessing that she acquiesced to liking whatever WH likes (which consists of a near-psychotic devotion to a single band). However, at one point shortly after d-day 3 - the final d-day to date - while I was biding my time to leave him (and WH knew this, or at least in theory he knew it) while we were sitting on the couch my WH asked me what song described my feelings about "us." IDK if this was a suggestion from his counselor or what, but even thought I hadn't thought of this song in ages, I simply picked up my phone and cut/pasted the lyrics to "I don't care anymore" by Phil Collins to him. Needless to say he got the message.

I have found that since that day I go back to these lyrics from time to time, when I'm angry or mad - not so much anymore - but it's a great song to scream-sing to in your car...

Well you can tell everyone I'm a damn disgrace.
You can drag my name all over the place.
I don't care anymore. I don't care anymore.
You can tell everybody about the state I'm in.
You won't catch me crying 'cause I just can't win.
I don't care anymore.

I don't care what you say.
I don't play the same games you play.
'Cause I've been talking to the people that you call your friends,
and it seems to me there's a means to an end.
They don't care anymore. They don't care anymore.
And as for me I can sit here and bide my time.
I got nothing to lose if I speak my mind.
I don't care anymore.

I don't care what you say.
We never played by the same rules anyway.
I won't be there anymore.
Get out of my way.
Let me by.
I got better things to do with my time.
I don't care anymore.

Well, I don't care now what you say.
'Cause every day I'm feeling fine with myself.
And I don't care now what you say.
Hey, I'll do alright by myself.

'Cause I remember all the times I tried so hard.
And you laughed in my face 'cause you held the cards.
I don't care anymore.
And I really ain't bothered what you think of me.
'Cause all I want of you is just to let me be.
I don't care anymore.

Do you hear, I don't care no more.
I don't care what you say.
I never did believe you much anyway.
I won't be there no more.
So get out of my way.
Let me by.
I got better things to do with my time.
I don't care anymore.