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I don't want a divorce, but I do realize that it's looking more and more likely. My WW is so wrapped up in resentment that she's just checked out. Although she says she doesn't want a divorce, she can't seem to turn on any emotions or feelings for me in our marriage.

This has left me feeling like we're in perpetual limbo where I sometimes think divorce is the only logical answer, while also fearing divorce is the logical answer. Meaning I both welcome the idea and want to run and hide from it at the same time.

To help manage this, as my wife and I attempt to work through MC and IC, my wife and I have agreed that should either of us want a divorce, we should tell one another before seeing a lawyer. I came up with this plan, not her. She agreed, and here we are.

Neither of us, I think, feel great about the other following through with this commitment. I'm tempted to talk to a lawyer nearly every day, and at the same time I feel like if my wife handed me papers tomorrow, I wouldn't be all that surprised.

So, the pact is probably serving no actual purpose, other than to give me a feeling of false security that at least today my wife is not planning on divorcing me!

Interestingly enough, yesterday my wife had texted me a long emotional text while she was at work. The text could be summarized as "I'm still trying if you are." I took about 4 hours to respond back because I was writing and editing so much that it became a book.

Later that evening she would tell me that she thought for sure I was seeing a divorce lawyer and was going to give her papers when she got home. (Neither of us have any real idea how divorce works)

So, my question to everyone is this, has anyone else had experience dealing with a WS and navigating the "you went to see a lawyer" conversation? How did it go? Do you wish you would've been more preemptive?

Honestly a WS is owed nothing as far as going to talk to a lawyer to see what D may look like. Why do they even need to know? This is to protect yourself. Knowledge is power and consultations are often free.

If I want my WW living in fear of a divorce, she probably doesn't need to know. But I don't want that. I want her to not live in fear and do whatever she wants to do. If that means she cheats again, great! I can go get a divorce. But if I go through reconciliation, I want to know that she didn't stay faithful out of fear. I want her to stay faithful because she's a good person that learned from her mistakes.

Also, as I said above, I like the false sense of security I get from the pact.

While I can understand the good intentions behind not wanting to blindside your spouse by having them served with divorce papers by surprise-- such as at work, in a public place, or in front of the kids-- you certainly don't need your wife's permission or owe her a heads up before consulting with a divorce lawyer and weighing your options. Even if reconciliation is your goal at the moment, I think it would benefit you to talk to a lawyer just to demystify the process and make informed decisions based on reality rather than fear.

Interestingly enough, yesterday my wife had texted me a long emotional text while she was at work. The text could be summarized as "I'm still trying if you are." I took about 4 hours to respond back because I was writing and editing so much that it became a book.

Later that evening she would tell me that she thought for sure I was seeing a divorce lawyer and was going to give her papers when she got home. (Neither of us have any real idea how divorce works)

One thing you will learn the longer that you're on SI is that 99% of the shit that comes out of a cheater's mouth in the wake of Dday is manipulation, projection, or some combination of both.

She might've thought that you were seeing a lawyer because that's what she was doing that day. Perhaps she was telling you what she would do if she were in your shoes. Or maybe she was trying to scare you into giving her reassurance that you're not going anywhere.

Regardless, she didn't ask for your opinion before she had an affair, an act that she was well aware could result in divorce.

So, my question to everyone is this, has anyone else had experience dealing with a WS and navigating the "you went to see a lawyer" conversation? How did it go? Do you wish you would've been more preemptive?

My situation was different from yours in that we didn't own a house or have kids, so my ex found out I was filing for divorce when he came home from work to an empty apartment and the papers on kitchen counter. His reaction was to text me, "How am I supposed to make rent next month?!"

All I can say is that it was probably much better for his health that I wasn't there for him to say that to my face.

[This message edited by BluerThanBlue at 7:44 PM, Tuesday, January 14th]

@biggerthanblue

Or maybe she was trying to scare you into giving her reassurance that you're not going anywhere.

This is what I think she was trying to get at. Because once I said I still didn't want a divorce the conversation was over.

Regardless, she didn't ask for your opinion before she had an affair, an act that she was well aware could result in divorce.

She told me last night that she didn't think I would "give a shit" about her sexting. Which shows how far checked out she was, and how little she believed that I cared about her at the time of the affair.

I've got a different take on this. I wonder if you should make an appointment with an attorney and tell your W that you're going because you want to get a clear picture of what you could be facing. You could reassure her that right now you want to R, but you also want to be armed with information should things change.

This falls into the category of risking the marriage in order to save it, IMO, and could help quell the notion that you're a nice-guy pushover doing the pick-me dance. Many WSs don't get their priorities straight until faced with seismic change. It might be good for her to sweat a little. It helps clarify which outcome we really want.

I am going to agree with the others responses that there is "seeing a lawyer and drawing up divorce papers" and then there is "seeing a lawyer to understand the process and rules of divorce". The latter should be more than okay for you to do. You admit you are not familiar with the mechanics of divorce. Understanding what divorce would mean for your finances, your housing, your kids, your retirement, all that…. That gives you the comfort of knowledge and understanding instead of fear of the unknown. Often we don’t consider options because of that fear. I think every BS should see a lawyer (or three - get different opinions and a feel for how they operate so if you need one in the future, you have already found one that you like) and alleviate that fear to help your already over-stimulated system relax on that topic. It may also help you make decisions today that protect you in possible outcomes.

The spirit of your agreement is you will not spring divorce papers on her. Okay - more than you owe her, and who knows if she will live up to her word, but your choice. And you seem to understand that she is not really trustworthy so it may be a false sense of security - maybe she will live up to her word. But understanding your options is you looking out for yourself and has nothing to do with her.

And rather than taking a lot of stock in her long texts, please ONLY look at her actions. Words are easy. Words are cheap. Actions consistent over time show what she really wants and what she really is committed to doing.

Oh, and changing your mind on what you want every ten minutes- totally normal. Just part of the roller coaster she put you on that you never wanted to ride.

Hang in there.

@Sacredsoul33

This falls into the category of risking the marriage in order to save it, IMO, and could help quell the notion that you're a nice-guy pushover doing the pick-me dance.

I think this makes sense, but I always get a little weirded out by the "don't be a pushover". I feel like if my wife thinks I'm weak or a pushover, that's her problem. I really don't want to save the marriage if that's what she thinks. She can go if that's her attitude.

@Barelybreathing

Understanding what divorce would mean for your finances, your housing, your kids, your retirement, all that…. That gives you the comfort of knowledge and understanding instead of fear of the unknown.

Yeah, you guys are right about this. I really do need to know so I can make smarter decisions.

I think it's inevitable that I go to a free counseling sometime in the near future. But, and this is probably the only time I feel like I'm using any gamesmanship, I think I may wait to do this when I'm really low in the murk of this shit and use it to kind of reset things between my wife and I. Because I know it will have a huge impact on where we are in reconciliation, and it will be a kind of canary in the coal mine effect. I can't say why my wife doesn't want a divorce for sure, I can only say that I do believe she doesn't want it. So even seeing a lawyer for a free counseling will carry a lot of weight.

I can't say why my wife doesn't want a divorce for sure, I can only say that I do believe she doesn't want it.

To SacredSoul's point, you'd probably get a much clearer idea of what your wife's motivations are if you did a consultation with a lawyer and told her about.

She told me last night that she didn't think I would "give a shit" about her sexting. Which shows how far checked out she was, and how little she believed that I cared about her at the time of the affair.

That's BULLSHIT.

If she didn't think you would give a shit about her affair, she wouldn't have hid the sexting from you, had a big fight with you when you demanded her phone, and started furiously deleting messages.

Every single person who has an affair does so with the possibility that it could end their marriage, even if they think they don't think they will be discovered.

If your wife wasn't worried you would leave, it's not because she thought you didn't care... it's because you she knows how much you care.

[This message edited by BluerThanBlue at 10:18 PM, Tuesday, January 14th]

But if I go through reconciliation, I want to know that she didn't stay faithful out of fear.

The way you write this, I assume you mean you don’t want your wife to be continuously filled with anxiety you could divorce her at any moment for the rest of your life. Thing is, legally speaking, either of you can end the marriage at any time, without the consent of the other.

I also want to challenge your assumption. There is such a thing as a HEALTHY ‘fear of consequences’. Example: you start to feel anxious as you approach the edge of a steep cliff. The (healthy) fear of falling off the precipice keeps you safe. Fact is, I’ve faced temptation to cheat a few times, but when I considered the consequences (sorry, that’s nearly a forbidden word around here), I quickly dismissed the idea as "so not worth it".

Imagine the difference between someone facing temptation who has a spouse who will "stay no matter what" vs. one who makes it clear the (legal) consequences will be severe. Yes, a perfect person wouldn’t cheat no matter what. But there are precisely zero perfect people. We’re all sinners here folks. That’s why, for example, "the fear of God" is *always* portrayed as a very good thing biblically. It’s like having a dad, who’s an awesome dad, but you know full well he would lay down the law if your teenage self went drinking and cracked up the car. So you don’t do it. That healthy fear stopped me from doing way more crap as a teen - stuff I know full well I woulda done, and some of it could have gotten me killed.

Your W needs to know her actions and continuing non-action, non-commitment, etc. truly carry a marriage-ending possibility. This is why so many would say committing to R immediately as you did was truly a mistake. It’s one you can rectify tho. This is NOT manipulating your wife. It’s the truth! She needs to know that unless things change in a big way, this M is *over*. THIS is what we mean by "you must be willing to lose your M to save it". This is by NO MEANS a guarantee your W will actually reach remorse (she’s supremely not there now) and without true remorse (along with a number of other essential ingredients), you will never have a fulfilling R. You’ll just have two miserable people legally bound.

I remember the times of even considering divorce felt like I was betraying my wife. That was fucked up. Talking to a lawyer was a major step for me in taking control of my own life.

This is thread number 4. I do believe you would do better to choose one and stick to it, but you do you, friend

4characters,

Gently -- why are you making a new pact with someone who has shown you that they were not capable of keeping their vow before?

To repeat my (uninvited lol) opinion from a different thread, your wife is looking to protect herself. You describe your daily routine and you DO NOT have a marriage right now.

It’s a living arrangement. Not friends and certainly no benefits 😂

You put emphasis on Divorce vs Reconciliation. IMO YOU should be focusing on your own counseling and your own healing. Once you are in a better place then you can decide your future status, married, separated or divorced.

During the first year of R I really did not focus on my H or my M. I focused on me. My counselor had to remind me of the importance of what my H was doing. He was in his own during R b/c I was unsure of what I wanted. While I agreed to R it was a full 12 months before I was 100% on board.

You do not have to make any decisions on the status of your marriage. You can give it 3 months to see if things change. If not, you decide next steps.

But for now your healing is most important.

And I agree you should know what D looks like in your state. Have a consultation. Start separating your finances. Have a bank account just for you. Stop enabling her lifestyle if possible (no more money for her girls night out or new clothes etc).

I hope this helps you

I agree completely with 1stWife, but I feel like I do need to reiterate that there is a risk to the "wait-and-see" approach in your case because your wife's affair has jeopardized her employment and could land her in legal hot water.

That alone is reason enough for why you need consultation with an attorney now. A lawyer would be able to give you a picture of what divorce would look like while she's still gainfully employed vs how things would change if she was fired, under investigation, and/or potentially blacklisted from working in her chosen field.

Lastly, to JasonCh's point, you have no reason to expect that she will honor her end of this "pact," if she decides that it's in her best interest to violate it, just as she did your marriage vows.

It's possible that both she and I will be getting significant increases in pay soon.

Financially speaking, I know this is yet another reason to speak with a lawyer now, versus later. But I just can't help myself, I want (need) to know she isn't waiting for these pay increases to hit before she seeks a divorce. I need to know that she wants to reconcile regardless of money and financial stability. I don't think I can know that without just letting things play out and seeing what she does, and what the timing is.

If she waits for the first increased pay checks to hit and then suddenly has full clarity, I'll know this whole thing about "I don't know" was just a stall tactic. And for me, that's worth more than a better standard of living. There's really nothing more important to me than the truth.

So a story that may or may not be relevant but is food for thought.

A friend’s husband blindsided her with D papers after they had just gone through MC and she thought they were doing pretty well. (No infidelity, just not getting along well). He was up for partner later in the year, but at that time she made more money than him. By filing then, before his big raise but while she made more, he protected his HUGE raise from her getting any and she ended up having to pay him $20k in the divorce settlement.

So there are people - shitty people- who game this all to their financial benefit. Just be aware and if your raise is coming first, would it benefit her? Again, a reason to chat with a lawyer.

I understand your "need to know".

But as a betrayed you also know you CANNOT trust her words right now. She has consistently said one thing (in her own best interest) but not followed through with actions that align with her words.

Therefore we are trying to say that you need to understand that YOUR BEST INTEREST and healing MUST come first.

Devil’s advocate. Raises come through and she says she wants a D. What are you going to say, "well last week you said or texted you didn’t want a D". Her response will most likely be "I changed my mind".

And you will regret not being prepared for it.

I waited around for 6 months on the emotional roller coaster from hell waiting for my H to decide what he wanted. Best thing I did was finally realize I have decision making skills and power too. And in that day I used them. Not to stop his cheating but to stop having to live with his cheating.

I had a solid plan in place. One I worked on from dday1 to dday2. I had money in accounts he had no access to. He was the one leaving the home. He had to find his own place to live. I had picked out the mediators and mentally divided the assets. It was going to be a very quick D with custody 50-50.

Plan B. Everyone needs one. You don’t have to broadcast your moves. But be prepared for whatever comes your way.

[This message edited by The1stWife at 4:07 PM, Wednesday, January 15th]

She told me last night that she didn't think I would "give a shit" about her sexting. Which shows how far checked out she was, and how little she believed that I cared about her at the time of the affair.

While I agree with what blue said about this, I think of it slightly differently.

This is very likely what she told herself. I have never heard a ws say much different in this way. The narrative that someone tells themselves to justify what they are doing.

I do think that most also tell themselves that their bs doesn’t care, doesn’t love them, won’t find out. We minimize consequences and maximize things that give us the green light.

So I agree with blue it’s bullshit but this early out she likely doesn’t yet recognize that it is bullshit. It’s part of the unwinding that one does after believing these false narratives to justify their actions.

I personally think you need to stop focusing on the outcome of the relationship and just relax into both of you getting help. If that help includes knowing what the divorce would look like so you can be making financial decisions and such that will allow for it, that’s not the same as wanting a divorce.

Here is a typical time frame that I notice seems to be average for people after reading here for almost 8 years

Months 1-6 bs is in shock, disoriented, is in early stages of grieving such as denial and bargaining. Ws is confused, not fully engaged, andstill clinging to justifications. For me, it was that I claimed my husband withheld emotional connection. Reality? I had no idea how to foster connection and probably only had a minor sense of what it looked like.

Months 6-9 anger. The bs typically follows the grieving process along and is finally angry. This is a higher vibrational feeling and feels good. Around this time a ws who has been working on things will be more aware their justifications are bullshit, maybe taking more accountability, and are getting to the remorse stage. Not all ws get there. But basically that first bit of time there are all these huge feelings about what they have done and how you are reactinibg that they don’t get past guilt and shame. Guilt and shame are useful for some period of time but Blevins stuck and consumed by them will not allow them to get to remorse. Remorse comes when there is enough space freed up to start understanding and taking in your pain.

Months 10-12 kind of a settling in, a lot of the discovery and questions are over. Disorientation subsides and for a bs who has been working on themselves the investment of what the outcome of the relationship starts to wane towards they are tired and just want to be happy.

The second year can go a lot of ways. Many bs reach the plain of lethal flatness (that’s what they call it around here) where you find yourself numb, burned out, and checked out in some of the ways your ws was in the beginning. The ws is either getting it or they are not but your moods no longer depend on them as much. I think by the end of the second year some people feel like reconciling is starting to occur or for others that starts in year three. For some not at all.

Now of course these are averages and generalizations, Everyone is different and some stages can be shorter or longer. I only wrote it because I think what you will learn in time is these are very early days. You don’t know what to want, she doesn’t either. What this stage requires is space and time. Not for the ws but for you. You are not ready to D, very rarely would a bs be at this point. You also are not ready to R any more than she is. You are not healthy right now, you are grieving.

This doesn’t mean you can’t detach or separate, especially if more info or activity occurs. But what I want you to hear, is cut yourself some slack. It will be some time to find your footing again. Perhaps during that time your wife’s progress will show that you can work on the marriage. But by focusing on your own healing you will stay in tune with yourself and right now that is what is needed.

For my what it’s worth, my husband did have us draw up divorce papers around month 10. We never filed them but it gave him a sense of security at least knowing what that might look like. We just did it with the packet and discussion and came to our own agreements. That may be less as useable for you as we no longer had kids at home, and we could both support ourselves without the other.

[This message edited by hikingout at 4:59 PM, Wednesday, January 15th]

If she waits for the first increased pay checks to hit and then suddenly has full clarity, I'll know this whole thing about "I don't know" was just a stall tactic. And for me, that's worth more than a better standard of living. There's really nothing more important to me than the truth.

If I put myself back in my mindset of two years ago, I completely understand this.

From my current mindset, and the one that you WILL come to sooner or later, this is illogical and you will regret it, like if you got a tattoo of her name on your neck to prove your love.

In the strongest terms, I recommend consulting with a lawyer. All the more so if you have a strong negative reaction to the idea. I can point you to my thread where I worked thru my hesitation, and I’m so glad that I did. The thread was called "What Is Marriage?" It is a novel, but tons of great stuff in there, and by the end I had ironed out some serious kinks in my thinking on this topic. It was immensely helpful to me.

This isn't just about you and your wife; this is about your kids.

If your wife gets fired tomorrow or investigated by authorities because of her illicit relationship with a felon whose drug tests she's monitoring, that's going to turn your whole family's world upside down and you'll be in a panic.

Maybe you're willing to accept that risk for yourself, but you owe it to your kids to be informed and prepared before you accept that risk for them.

[This message edited by BluerThanBlue at 4:56 PM, Wednesday, January 15th]