SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

Now I want to talk about when I first confessed to BS about the affair. It was 7 months after I'd had sex with AP. During that 7 month period, we never met alone. I visited him at his workplace. On the day I confessed to my BS, I started out with a lie that I was attacked in a parking lot when I left work after dark by 2 men I didn't know. Of course my BS had lots of questions...Did I call the police? Did they hurt me? etc. After lying for some time, I broke down and told my BS that I'd had sex with someone 7 months ago and hadn't seen him since. I then told him that AP had forced his way into our home uninvited and molested me. That was a lie

Again, speaking from my experience as an older guy, I think another part of the anger or resentment comes from the fact that he was played as a fool from the one person he trusted and loved so much. I have stated here before that my pride has been a huge part of my success in business, but when it came to dealing with my wife’s infidelity, it was probably a huge stumbling block. No doubt the sex had a huge part to play in me not being able to forgive her, but the fact that it happened right under my nose and I was played for a fool by her, and even worse by a guy who probably had an IQ half of both hers and mine. I think this thinking is pretty prevalent in any guy born before 1960. We were taught differently than what you learn now about acceptance and forgiveness.

The lies you told and the fact you actually let him go confront the AP where he was probably ready to beat the crap out of him, only to find out you were a willing participant, has to be very painful. You were very young at the time, and that explains some of the illogical thinking, but still has to hurt.

I commend you in trying to fix things now, but things have festered so long that this will be difficult to accomplish.

I'm convinced now that I did and that it needs rebuilding.

I really hope you can do this. The issue from his point of view is does he want to rebuild, or is he just accepting he was hurt by you, and is at your age just running out the clock. Again, as I said before he isn’t going anywhere so you don’t have the added pressure of waiting for the shoe to drop. When I told my EX I wanted a divorce after 30 years of marriage she was shocked in one way, but in another she always felt like knowing me and my pride it was a statement she hoped she never heard, but was always terrified of happening.

You talk about rebuilding, what are the steps for that, and is he open to it, or like I said, just running out the clock

DobleTraicion,

I'm unable to quote you from page 4 and now the thread is on page 5. Maybe it's possible, but I've not been successful.

I believe I'm accepting radical ownership and radical transparency. I've poisoned the marriage and I want to make it better. I want
to be able to understand and put in perspective the affair and all of the lying I did to cause the destruction of our marriage.

It's hard for me to Know how specific I should be on this forum at times, but I do want responders to my thread to know what kinds of terrible choices I've made so that I get informed responses. I want to be authentic.

I appreciate your description of the couple who use writing to communicate. I need time to think sometimes before I can respond and I know that my writing here helps both me and BS. Maybe writing directly to him would help as well. He's way more articulate than I am and he orders his thoughts really well. Sometimes I become overwhelmed by the talks that we have.

I have cleaned out the corners of my mind and am keeping no secrets. A member here, helped me with a post she made a long time ago where she said that, if she gets a twisty feeling in her stomach about something she's thinking about, she knows that that's something she has to discuss with her husband. I have been following that advice since then.

OP - I can't find your comment regarding defensiveness but I wanted to let you know that I too, as a BS, have a hard time getting past old bad ways of dealing with things. My WH also has defensiveness as a go-to when things get tough - his IC has told him that he should just say it out loud "I'm getting defensive because _____" - calling himself out has worked wonders on negating that reaction.

Again, speaking from my experience as an older guy, I think another part of the anger or resentment comes from the fact that he was played as a fool from the one person he trusted and loved so much.

Speaking from my experience as a young-to middle aged woman over this course of this process, I too can state that the resentment/anger has come from being played a fool by my WH. His A was a workplace A, the AP and OBS both working with him - and he socialized with both of them. WH told me in the beginning, before the A was exposed, that AP came to him (of course he claimed AP came to him as a "friend") wanting to talk about problems with OBS, because WH was a good friend of OBS. At the time I told him, having also been confided in about relationship problems from a friend who was one member of a couple that had been together over 10 years where I was very good friends with both members of that coupling (I in fact introduced them), that I had to tell my friend I could not speak to her about their relationship problems as it put me in the middle and I did not wish to take sides or otherwise be later perceived as meddling in their relationship. Basically I told WH that I had to bow out of that discussion as it was not appropriate for me to be involved and because I didn't want my other friend in that couple to be pissed at my involvement - and that WH should bow out so that OBS didn't have the same perception. He even told me about the problems AP was allegedly having with OBS and pretended like he was this helpful guy...and tried passing that BS off until the A was exposed. I'm sure he would have continued claiming that had I not found him out.

waitedwaytoolong

Again, speaking from my experience as an older guy, I think another part of the anger or resentment comes from the fact that he was played as a fool from the one person he trusted and loved so much.

Yes, this is a big part of the pain that I caused. Although we didn't tell friends or family members about the affair, I know that my BS felt ashamed of my actions and ashamed that he didn't know what to do at the time to deal with the situation and I was trying to control everything by lying. What a mess I was. I know, because we've talked about it that the being played for a fool has effected his ability to have friends. For me, the shame that I experience has effected my relationships with other people, too...even with our children, sadly. My BS was just beginning a new job when I told him of the affair, so it was an especially hard time for him as well.

I really hope you can do this. The issue from his point of view is does he want to rebuild, or is he just accepting he was hurt by you, and is at your age just running out the clock. Again, as I said before he isn’t going anywhere so you don’t have the added pressure of waiting for the shoe to drop.

He really does want to rebuild. He's a very positive guy and he helps me to think about the choices I've made and how I can improve. We've both read many books to help us. We have mostly good days. That said, the affair is always there in the background. He is interested in lots of things and is in a good frame of mind when he's busy working on something, building something, planning, studying,etc. When he has down time, he's more likely to spiral into pain over my , our, past.

ThisIsSoLonely, you said:

My WH also has defensiveness as a go-to when things get tough - his IC has told him that he should just say it out loud "I'm getting defensive because _____" - calling himself out has worked wonders on negating that reaction.

Thank you for sharing this. I'm going to try it the next time. I often just break into tears, which I hate.

Basically I told WH that I had to bow out of that discussion as it was not appropriate for me to be involved and because I didn't want my other friend in that couple to be pissed at my involvement - and that WH should bow out so that OBS didn't have the same perception.

You made a good decision.

Thank you for helping me.

ThisIsSoLonely, you said:

My WH also has defensiveness as a go-to when things get tough - his IC has told him that he should just say it out loud "I'm getting defensive because _____" - calling himself out has worked wonders on negating that reaction.

Thank you for sharing this. I'm going to try it the next time. I often just break into tears, which I hate.

To add to the context of this, just because it really HAS helped with communication, WH will now do one of a few things:

If he is really feeling defensive, he will simply say "I am feeling really defensive about [insert topic here] and I know it's not helpful. I am going to walk away for a few minutes to collect my thoughts..."

Or he will say he is feels defensive and explain why.

* the key is that if he takes a "time out" he does actually return lol - and that he tries to articulate why he is feeling defensive.

To use a LONG non-infidelity related example (that occurred last night) - WH is not the neatest housekeeper, and I am not either but compared to him I definitely am - so I find myself picking up after him (cups, glasses, paper towels on the coffee table, socks off the floor, etc) because it drives me crazy, and from time to time it is clear I am annoyed about it even if I do not say anything out loud (I tend to get quiet and just pick the stuff up and put it away and go outside with the dogs or something). I will also note just for context that we were at the house we used to live together in but it is no longer "my" house - I moved out and bought a place of my own.

Yesterday morning I woke up and the living room/kitchen was far from clean and I was not thrilled (IDK how one person can make such a mess in such a short time but I digress...) - he came out and I had already started picking stuff up and he made a comment to me about the mess, to which I replied "honestly, sometimes it feels like you do this on purpose, just to irritate me" and went about my business (the new and "improved post-infidelity me" takes less shit - but could also use some work in the communication department as I am not perfect either - although I have wondered if the mess is some sort of passive aggressive tactic - but I know it's not - he's just messy). He responded "No, why would you think that/". And my response was a short "Okay - good to know" - I was tired and just pissy that the countertop I had wiped down the night before was now covered in plates and two empty containers from the fridge. That comment upset WH, and he started to say something to me but stopped short., and said he was feeling defensive and needed to collect his thoughts. We went about our day but I could tell something was bothering him and awhile later he said he wanted to talk (this is new post-infidelity WH, who in the past would have just sat on that and added it to his list of resentments about me).

WH said my comment had upset him, and that in the moment he was feeling very defensive and his instinct was to go on attack right after I said it , but he had taken some time to cool down because: (1) he realized attacking was not going to resolve anything, and (2) because he was able to figure out why he felt so defensive, especially as there was no denying he had made the mess I was irritated about. He said he felt defensive as his perception is that I don't notice things he does and only see the mess/what he doesn't do. He pointed out that he had folded and put away the laundry off the couch that night also, in an attempt to do some of the things he knows I would like him to do (he frequently leaves clean laundry on the extra couch for days which drives me nuts so his doing it almost immediately was abnormal) but that I didn't notice that and instead focused on the dishes on the coffee table and that my saying I thought he did things on purpose to irritate felt like a slap in the face regarding the things he did do because he feels like he is trying - for me because he knows its important to me. This led to me saying that I don't feel like I need to verbally recognize everything he does that I like as that makes me feel like his mom - but that I admit I did not notice the laundry (or the boxes that were in the entryway were gone - he had broken them down and put in the recycling outside) because I just woke up, and because I was immediately focused on the negative of the cups/dishes, I did not notice he had done the other things. We then resolved to work on his not needing verbal validation for doing things that to me are just "things you do" and for me being more willing to ask him to do something instead of just doing it myself and being pissed about it.

My point is that we were able to resolve things in a much more productive way because: (1) WH was able to articulate he was feeling defensive, (2)that he needed space, to figure out why, (3) for my part I was willing to give him that space (in the past I would press immediately on that with mixed results), and (4) he DID actually come back to finish the discussion starting with the why he felt defensive.

This also worked on infidelity topics - and we had the most success if WH was able to articulate why he was feeling defensive, or admit that there was no real reason. Sometimes defensive was as simple as "I am feeling defensive because I know you want to talk about my negative behaviors (or how I hurt you or whatever) and I don't want to talk about them, but I know that it is important to you that we do, so I am going to try to put the defensiveness aside even though my gut reaction is to prepare for an attack and try to defend myself." I also tried to be better at explaining WHY I was asking something, which he says was also helpful in cutting back the defensiveness.

it's a process - but talking about defensiveness and recognizing why you are feeling defensive may help diffuse it. The conversation we had last night about the messy house was not pleasant and I'd like to say it was resolved in a few minutes, but the reality is it took about 30 minutes for us to get to the heart of the issues - but it's better than hold in all that defensiveness (and in my WH's case - anger)

TWD, been mulling over your response as well as the excellent input of other posters.

First this:

It's hard for me to Know how specific I should be on this forum at times, but I do want responders to my thread to know what kinds of terrible choices I've made so that I get informed responses. I want to be authentic.

Of course, be only as specific as you are comfortable with. Youve already laid out a lot and alluded to more (you referenced other "poor choices"). I guess I'd say that if there were other betrayals between the one youve discussed and the present time, that would be helpful to know and lend more understanding, but again, share what you are comfortable with. My challenge to you would be that if you are both finding this exercise to be therapeutic, what do you have to lose at this point by sharing more?

The preeminent point is, of course, that your BH now knows everything there is to know.

Now this:

I believe I'm accepting radical ownership and radical transparency. I've poisoned the marriage and I want to make it better. I want

to be able to understand and put in perspective the affair and all of the lying I did to cause the destruction of our marriage.

I affirm your decision to grow in radical ownership and transparency. It needs to happen if you are to see the progress you hope for in your life and possibly in your relationship with BH. Note, it also means, imo, that you drop all defensive posturing with your BH. When/if you get defensive, he probably equates it to hiding and rug sweeping and his wall likely gets a bit higher. It can also be an avoidance reflex because you dont want to face that part of yourself again.

The analogy of poison is an apt one. Ive often written of betrayal-by-adultery as being stabbed in the back with a poisoned blade. Initially massively painful with long lasting detrimental (putting it lightly) affects. All true but here is the core of that truth. Long before you stabbed your BH husband in the back with that blade, you poisoned your own soul.

This gets to the heart of the heart. Dont try to "save your marriage". Save yourself. Neutralize that poison of duplicity, self deception, selfishness, self protection, need for external validation and attention with the antedote of ever increasing personal integrity and healthy self awareness. Have the fortitude to look into that darkest place in your heart and have the guts to stare down the eyes that stare back at you....your own.

You can make a late charge forward in your own life. Work hard to fill in the integrity gap that allowed you to do those horrendous things. Stand taller in that regard than you ever have. You will then continue to drain the poison from your own life and thus, from your marriage. Its a "physician heal thyself" proposition. As a by-product of your burgeoning authenticity and integrity, your marriage cant help but benefit.

Anyway, at the risk of sounding too much like Norman Vincent Peale I leave you with this thought, "If you shoot for the moon and hit the star below, you're still on higher ground."

[This message edited by DobleTraicion at 8:35 PM, Saturday, September 9th]

That said, the affair is always there in the background. He is interested in lots of things and is in a good frame of mind when he's busy working on something, building something, planning, studying,etc. When he has down time, he's more likely to spiral into pain over my , our, past.

I have more than once described her affair as Muzak. When I was busy or people were around it really wasn’t present. But when I was by myself or putting my head on the pillow at night, it was playing loud and was all I could hear. It was the most present when we were just alone together. I mostly never brought it up, but she knew what was running in my head.

It’s great that you can discuss this together and that he actually tries to help you to make better choices. I don’t think that I ever once in the five years I stayed after her affair, tried to help her process anything or gave her suggestions to try to be a better person. Frankly I didn’t care enough, and it just made me angry to even brooch the affair. What are the choices he is helping you with?

I’m not sure it was brought up, or I missed it, but does he have anyone who he can discuss this with? We initially told no one, except an awful MC, and I suffered in silence for 5 years. Initially she didn’t want to tell anyone, and frankly neither did I. I could live all day long with scores of people hating me, but couldn’t live with just one who pitied me. That was frankly a huge mistake. It was a big burden lifted to finally let things out in the open. Went much better for me than I ever expected. I urge you to let him start slowly talking with close friends or family about how he is feeling.

I just picked up on your defensiveness. That would be a problem. Knowing how he feels, you should never let this creep out. What do you have to be defensive about? I would think you would be bending over backwards to just be kind.

Anyway, you are very lucky to have someone like him. I’m not sure how I would have reacted if I found out so much damaging information after so long, but I guarantee that I woukd not have had the grace your BS has exhibited.

Waited - quick threadjack

I just picked up on your defensiveness. That would be a problem. Knowing how he feels, you should never let this creep out. What do you have to be defensive about? I would think you would be bending over backwards to just be kind.

I can tell you from 3+ years of IC for my WH that the defensiveness issue is much more than I ever imagined or understood. DaddyDom has some GREAT posts on this topic. I would argue that hiding/pushing down the defensiveness isn't helpful - talking about it out in the open - that is the key to diffusing it IMO.

[This message edited by ThisIsSoLonely at 8:54 PM, Sunday, September 10th]

ThisIsSoLonely, you said:

it's a process - but talking about defensiveness and recognizing why you are feeling defensive may help diffuse it. The conversation we had last night about the messy house was not pleasant and I'd like to say it was resolved in a few minutes, but the reality is it took about 30 minutes for us to get to the heart of the issues - but it's better than hold in all that defensiveness (and in my WH's case - anger)

It certainly is a process. I'm happy for you that you're having some success by learning from his councilor. I think who does what in a household is a subject of lots of angst.

I have trouble identifying what makes me defensive.I'm working on that. One thing I've learned is that it's more satisfying for both of us, if we talk than if we sulk.

I can tell you from 3+ years of IC for my WH that the defensiveness issue is much more than I ever imagined or understood. DaddyDom has some GREAT posts on this topic. I would argue that hiding/pushing down the defensiveness isn't helpful - talking about it out in the open - that is the key to diffusing it IMO.

Thanks for this. I see defensiveness as part of the make-up of a cheater, along with conflict avoidance and passivity...also passive-aggressiveness. These are all of a piece.

I have trouble identifying what makes me defensive.

Three years ago this happened to my WH ALL the time - when we started doing this (addressing the defensiveness - and yes, it did go hand in hand with conflict avoidance for sure). WH would straight up say "I'm feeling defensive, and I can't even articulate why - it's like an instant-reflex." If I were asking a question which lead to that response that was my cue to explain why I was asking whatever it was. Oftentimes that helped both diffuse the defensiveness and/or help him figure out why he was feeling that way. He had to walk away a LOT back then and think about it - sometimes he would even talk these things out with his IC - but we almost always came back to them. It really is like riding a bike - after you stop avoiding conflict for awhile and pushing through it, it does get easier.

I guess my ultimate advice on this is to hold yourself accountable. Do not let your defensiveness, especially if you can't identify what is causing you to feel that way, be an excuse to not pushing through it!

It was work for me, and patience on my part, which I gladly participated in not because I was trying to R at that point, but because I really wanted to help him progress as it seemed he really wanted to. I would think wanting to R would be more a motivation even so it may be easier for your BS to participate.

I can also say I have learned so much about people's thought processes from this whole journey. WH needs things I don't - and I need things he doesn't, and we think about things in different ways generally. Some things that upset him on my part would never bother me if the situation were reversed. Really, the whole treat people as you want to be treated is a good general rule, but it's not the be-all-end-all. There is more to do.

[This message edited by ThisIsSoLonely at 4:12 PM, Monday, September 11th]

DobleTraicion, you said:

Of course, be only as specific as you are comfortable with. Youve already laid out a lot and alluded to more (you referenced other "poor choices"). I guess I'd say that if there were other betrayals between the one youve discussed and the present time, that would be helpful to know and lend more understanding, but again, share what you are comfortable with. My challenge to you would be that if you are both finding this exercise to be therapeutic, what do you have to lose at this point by sharing more?

I don't want to be so specific that someone is able to identify specifically who we are, so if I seem a little vague at times, that's the reason.

I had an EA about 8 years after my PA with a man in a laundromat. I never knew his name. The elements that made it an affair were; 1. I kept it from my BS. 2. That I was attracted to him. 3. That I went back each week at the same time thinking it would be nice to see him and talk to him 4. I accepted a gift from him. He bought me a cup of coffee next door at a convenience store and I accepted it even though I didn't like coffee at the time.

One day, he asked me what I was doing that afternoon. I told him I was taking my daughter to a music lesson. I remember not wanting to get involved sexually again with another man, so I didn't encourage him. However, I think I did go back at the same time the next week hoping to see him. He didn't come back again. The EA lasted 3 or 4 weeks.

I had the very wrong idea that it was okay to keep secrets and that I didn't have to share this "friendship" with my BS.

Now I subscribe to the Shirley Glass "walls and windows" boundaries. I open windows to my BS and share my life completely with him and I put up walls to keep other men out.

waitedwaytoolong, you said,

I mostly never brought it up, but she knew what was running in my head.

My BS brings up his feelings and thoughts lots. We talk seriously about our affair issues almost daily. The good thing is that our talks are becoming more fruitful and less hurtful with frequency. It's very painful to talk about, but I really appreciate my BS's willingness to talk.

I'll answer more of your questions later .

thatwilldo, please do be as vague as you need to be. On this:

I had an EA about 8 years after my PA with a man in a laundromat. I never knew his name. The elements that made it an affair were; 1. I kept it from my BS. 2. That I was attracted to him. 3. That I went back each week at the same time thinking it would be nice to see him and talk to him 4. I accepted a gift from him. He bought me a cup of coffee next door at a convenience store and I accepted it even though I didn't like coffee at the time.

One day, he asked me what I was doing that afternoon. I told him I was taking my daughter to a music lesson. I remember not wanting to get involved sexually again with another man, so I didn't encourage him. However, I think I did go back at the same time the next week hoping to see him. He didn't come back again. The EA lasted 3 or 4 weeks.

I had the very wrong idea that it was okay to keep secrets and that I didn't have to share this "friendship" with my BS.

May I ask when your BH found out about this EA? Was this part of your 50th anniversary confession? Just trying to get a feel for the level of TT and trauma your BH has endured.

I wholeheartedly affirm your work in the area of transparency with your husband while building titanium bounderies with other men. It is the only way forward.

DT,

May I ask when your BH found out about this EA? Was this part of your 50th anniversary confession? Just trying to get a feel for the level of TT and trauma your BH has endured.

I read Not Just Friends twice a few years before our 50th anniversary and that's when I told my BS about the EA.

There have been many hurtful and traumatic revelations over the years. I had one PA and one EA.

As you know, infidelity is not only the affairs, it's the lying and cheating and whole paradigm of deception that makes up the misery and trauma that the BS suffers.

waitedwaytoolong,

What are the choices he is helping you with?

He's a very thoughtful and perceptive person. He's able to organize his thoughts and help me to understand the pain that he suffers and why. We discuss not only affair issues, but politics, family issues, just everything. If I have a problem, I run it by him and he helps me.

I urge you to let him start slowly talking with close friends or family about how he is feeling.

I have never asked him not to talk to anyone about the affairs or anything else. It's his choice. I would never try to control him in that way. He makes his own decisions.

I just picked up on your defensiveness. That would be a problem. Knowing how he feels, you should never let this creep out. What do you have to be defensive about? I would think you would be bending over backwards to just be kind.

I think I am kind most of the time. Defensiveness has been hard for me to completely shake. I'm working on it though. I get defensive if BS calls me a name or if he exaggerates.

Anyway, you are very lucky to have someone like him. I’m not sure how I would have reacted if I found out so much damaging information after so long, but I guarantee that I woukd not have had the grace your BS has exhibited.

I appreciate him very much.

I read Not Just Friends twice a few years before our 50th anniversary and that's when I told my BS about the EA.

There have been many hurtful and traumatic revelations over the years. I had one PA and one EA.

As you know, infidelity is not only the affairs, it's the lying and cheating and whole paradigm of deception that makes up the misery and trauma that the BS suffers.

Thanks again for sharing.

I do know this yes. Not to the extent of your BH, but I know. One decade was all I could take of that hurt and misery. Your BH endured 4-5 times that and he's still there with you, still fighting.

Were you both younger, in your 60s even, my feedback may be different but now in your late 70s the die is cast so to speak. I do believe youve made strides in working to improve, and in so doing, may have eased his pain some. I do hope so. Honestly, this is a victory. That, coupled with what youve described as his optimistic attitude, may just be enough to light your way forward and see some, if not all of that vision you have described for whatever are the remaining years you have together.

I wish you both continued strength, healing, and dare I say, joy. I truly do.

[This message edited by DobleTraicion at 12:05 PM, Friday, September 15th]

I would like to thank everyone who has contributed to this thread. I've copied your suggestions and insights into a document on my computer so that I can refer to it often. Your thoughts and perspectives have helped me so much. I'll be posting a question soon in a new thread.

TWD, thanks for posting and for allowing Betrayeds like me to participate.

[This message edited by DobleTraicion at 9:54 PM, Friday, September 15th]