SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

Unhinged,

It is you again. 😊 I make my head spin as well.

...your very first post here was about all of the asterisks in your life. Are you done with the asterisks?

That is a wonderful and spot on question to ask me. I hadn’t put my name here in context to this post. That was a big miss on my part, and I appreciate you bringing it to my attention. I can say with full confidence that the asterisks I have been living with, for the 1st time in 32 years, have an offramp and I plan on visiting each one of them and attempt to swerve them onto that exit.

Asterisk

5Decades,

It is so very nice to hear from you again. As with other comments you have shared with me, your professional expertise has helped and supported me in my journey.

If you look at a simple example, you will see that we do recognize this fact in our daily lives. Take the example of a five year old child who stole cookies from a cookie jar. When confronted, the adult is aware that we don’t say, "You are a bad person!" Instead, we say, "That was not a good thing to do." The simple change in language focuses on the behavior of the child, not his character. That change is an important distinction.

And that drives home what I am beginning to understand about using, what I see, as the proper words and phrasing for a given situation. And how important it is not to make permanent something or someone that has the desire to change.

Asterisk

Neverwithoutmychildren,

I have to say that at first I avoided this thread because I feared the title was provoking but I am so glad I read it and the title was simply exactly what it is lol.

I had to go back and reread my title with what I understand as your original perspective of this being a "provoking" post. Though that was not my intention, I can now see how that might have been interpreted that way. Made me sad.

Thank you for giving my words a try, and it makes my momentary sadness diminish knowing that you are glad that you read my post. I hope it brought some comfort.

Asterisk

Want2BHappyAgain,

You are not stuck in your worst moment. You are one act of faith away from a rewritten story.

Though I do not come to this issue from a faith perspective I still like and agree with your conclusion. I would like to add to it - that one’s actions also helps a person rewrite their life’s story. Not everyone will like or accept this new story and that is their right. But that non acceptance does not void the renewal. Thanks for sharing your scripture perspective.

Asterisk

Buckles,

The words describe action, and the action is abhorrent. When trust is violated, when that violation is thoughtless, and cruel, then it redefines the person that committed that violation.

There is not one word above that I can find fault in. All your descriptors are true. And if the wayward spouse refuses to redefine themselves or the betrayed spouse refuses to allow for a redefinition of their spouse then divorce is the wise and most kind option because it allows the best course of action so that everyone involved may best heal.

Asterisk

A little over a year ago, when I was early into IC, my therapist asked me if I viewed myself as a betrayed spouse. I said yes back then, but after another year of therapy, along with some pretty heavy healing, I now view myself as a former recipient of infidelity, but I no longer allow that to define who I am.

I had Chicken Pox once, but I got through it, healed from it, and moved on.
I was cheated on once, but I got through it, healed from it, and am nearly fully past it. Still plenty of 2 am wake ups remembering, but they lessen every day. The future looks way brighter now.

CopingMyBest,

I was cheated on once, but I got through it, healed from it, and am nearly fully past it. Still plenty of 2 am wake ups remembering, but they lessen every day. The future looks way brighter now.

This was wonderful to read. Well done, well said. It sounds to me as like the "2am wake ups" are not not going to be long-haul companions. And you accomplished this in 1 year! That is amazing!!!

Asterisk

Hi Asterisk, earlier in my life, I was drawn to successful people. I wanted friends who were accomplished in one way or another. Over the last few years, post infidelity, i find myself interested in being friends with, being close to, people who have dealt with serious shit in their lives. I want very much to see how they made their way out of it. I had a new colleague who was somewhat weird and then I learned she had a young child to a prolonged battle with cancer 20 years earlier and many/most of her life choices and weird behavior were reflected in that. Another friend had a child who had multiple strokes over 10 years and became increasingly disabled and died. Another friend deals with depression, but there is an undeniable fight in her. Another friend has felt firsthand and ongoing the effects of racism. And on and on.

I’m a wayward. I want to hear from people who are wayward and betrayed, because I want to know their stories. I find it endlessly fascinating because that’s the ballpark I lived in. I’m less naturally inclined toward drug addiction, alcoholism, weight problems, financial problems, etc because that’s not where I went. So if someone tells me they are wayward or betrayed, I’m all ears.

That’s what the labels wayward and betrayed mean to me. What is it that you object to? The implied judgement? I sidestep judgement people, they are doing their thing and it doesn’t need to concern me. The narrowness of the label? All labels are narrow. Tell me you are an atheist, or a Christian or an agnostic, an American or a Russian or a Mexican, and I know only a starting point for conversation. And the starting point might be wrong. Is there something different that bothers you about those words?

Interesting Topic I must admit. And I agree with some of the sentiment in the responses that to some extent we can affect our mindset by how we speak, and the specifics of what we say.

But IMO, I have to wonder if there are simply things you just have not adequately healed from. I mean, I don't know your entire situation, but are you confident you actually have the entire truth? Or is there something that you feel your wife has not been able to enter into empathy with you about? Have you not "grieved together" properly?

Other questions that might have relevance. Is it possible you are just in an "emotional dip" in your life ....where there is nothing specific you can attribute it to, so this "feeling" simply "lands on" the historical betrayal....rather than actually being the CAUSE of this emotional dip?.

Or are you simply at a point in life where you are grieving low points in your life? Or are you possibly dealing with depression? Is there possibly spiritual influence being slowed to discourage you?

Or have you had trouble with forgiveness?

On several of these questions, to me the solutions speaks ....seek the Lord intensely. For many of those things we simply cannot do on human strength or will.

As far as people changing....of course we can be completely changed and new people. Out past does not have to define us, but most definitely there are consequences we simply may not be able to entirely rid ourselves for our whole life. And this of course depends on the specifics of the injury.

A broken ankle may heal and after 20 years have minimal impacts. Yet a severely crushed ankle may result in an amputation that has life long impacts.

I would say....sort this out with your wife also. Simply speak your feelings, speak your injury. Try to get to the absolute root injury. You can be helped with this by getting the "feelings wheel" (I think that is what it is called or something like that). This will help you dig deeper to the root injury, which is maybe where you need healing.

Anyway, may God give you wisdom and healing!!!

On my Dday I was so stunned that I literally could not comprehend what I was feeling. I could not find the word. The closest I came was a legal phrase, "breach of trust." After a week or so it came to me. The word was betrayed. This was in 1996, long before this site was created so I floundered around trying to figure it out. Just finding the appropriate word helped me to begin to find my footing. Words matter. They are more than just a way to communicate, they help me reason.

Asterix, I think I understand where you are coming from. Labels are static, people are not. I was betrayed in the past but it does not define me today.

This only applies to authentic Christians of course, but this discussion brought this passage to mind:

Do not be deceived; neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals, nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, will inherit the kingdom of God. And such ***WERE*** some of you; but you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God.

1 Cor 6:9-12, emphasis mine.

This post is entirely factual when I'm sharing thoughts that actually go through my mind. The conclusions are opinions. Except ...

Labels aren't static. That is a fact. The associations and implications that go with a label can change over time. That is a fact. For example, see the history of 'ADHD'. See the history of ... well, anything.

I'll accept the label of 'orthodox SIer' as long as the labeler keeps front and center in their mind that SI orthodoxy is not monolithic and is far from orthodox outside SI. And SI is not the only belief system that contains orthodoxies, heterodoxies, and heresies.

Labels aren't static.

*****

SI has taught me something very important. An authority may give us a start at understanding how to heal from being betrayed, but only a start. The key to healing is finding one's own path.

Asterisk, You've taken some twists and turns that are pretty unusual in the 20th century (I mean 'unusual' not 'wrong', 'right', 'valid', invalid, etc., etc., etc.). You've clearly looked for your own path. (And btw, thanks for sharing some of it.)

*****

I'll tell you, though. I think of myself as a former BS. By that I mean I was all BS, all the time for a while, and now I'm not. My W is a former WS - all WS, all the time for a while (too fucking long), and now she's back to being herself, and part of being herself is being a former WS.

I can see 'once a cheater, always a cheater' - and I can see 'once a good partner, always a good partner.' I just don't understand how I'm comfortable with both of those ideas. That really is a LOL moment. I just don't know if I hold those ideas serially, back and forth, millisecond to millisecond or if I hold those ideas simultaneously.

Bigger questions for me, though, are how the labels impact moral and community decisions. I'm on firmer ground there. I am totally fine with condemning infidelity without regard to the way a person is unfaithful. I just can't condemn a WS because of their infidelity alone, and I don't - can't, won't - see infidelity as a criminal offense.

*****

Clearly there are people who think BSes who choose R are defective human beings. Maybe they're right, but I think I'd diminish my own life if I agreed with them so I don't. Maybe they're wrong, though, in which case it behooves me and everyone else to give no credence to the 'reconcilers are defective' proposition. So I'm good with seeing R as desirable - at least for those who desire it.

I have problems understanding how a person can agree with 'once a cheater' without seeing 'once a good partner'. The only explanation I can come up with is that they're still in pain, if they were betrayed, or simply don't know what they're telling themself (and others) if they haven't.

*****

IMO - that is, my opinion (not a fact) - is that one explanatory logical conclusion is that a person simply must be more than their behavior for a period of time, up to a point. I wish I knew what that point is.

*****

Hillel reportedly said, "If I am not for myself, who will be for me? If I am only for myself, what am I? And if not now, when?" Some people read those a rhetorical questions. I read them as real ones.

So, Asterisk, I wonder ... how do you feel about yourself, knowing that some people think 'once a BS, always a BS, and always defective'? (Feel free to ignore that question.) My answer is:

1) I sure wish I could persuade them to my way of thinking. That is, after all, the reason for lots of my posts.

2) I can get really angry when I believe someone calls me a liar.

3) I have to choose how I feel about myself. Sometime I do great. Sometimes I don't.

[This message edited by SI Staff at 7:32 PM, Friday, December 26th]

Pippin,

That’s what the labels wayward and betrayed mean to me. What is it that you object to? The implied judgement?

Fair and good question Pippin. Please understand that I am dealing with my issues and am writing them out for two main reasons. I am looking for flaws in my thinking to be kindly pointed out and for anyone that might find comfort in what I am writing.

What I was objecting to was that for me to keep referring to my wife as a "Wayward" and myself as a "Betrayed" was keeping us both stuck in roles that no longer fit our relationship.

To do so early in the process of dealing with infidelity those labels are probably very helpful. Especially if one wishes not to reconcile the marriage. However, at some point, if a couple wants to reconcile, I believe it to be important to apply labels as each other are now, not as they were then. I came to realize I was weighing down our current relationship from a dreadful event that occurred decades ago. Though I agree my wife’s decisions started the problem, but I, by clinging to the past, had become the problem.

Asterisk

Woodthrush2,

.…I have to wonder if there are simply things you just have not adequately healed from. I mean, I don't know your entire situation, but are you confident you actually have the entire truth?

No, and for many reasons, am not confident that I have the entire truth. What I do know for sure is that due to the length of time sense the affair that the full truth is no longer known by my wife either. So, to fully reconcile I needed to reconcile this lack of full transparency to myself.

Or is there something that you feel your wife has not been able to enter into empathy with you about?

I do not completely understand this question, it seems to be a repeat of the prior question. As to empathy, I am confident that my wife has a deep empathy for the pain she has caused and has worked extraordinarily hard to rehabilitate herself and our marriage. Has she done it in the way I wanted or would have approached it? Not 100%. She is her own person, and I had to allow her to heal and to change in her own way.

Have you not "grieved together" properly?

Yes. Though clearly not in the way some others would accept as "proper".

Other questions that might have relevance. Is it possible you are just in an "emotional dip" in your life ....where there is nothing specific you can attribute it to, so this "feeling" simply "lands on" the historical betrayal....rather than actually being the CAUSE of this emotional dip?
Or are you simply at a point in life where you are grieving low points in your life?

I am not being evasive or argumentative pertaining to this question but I have no idea what you are asking or how this pertains to this post.

Or are you possibly dealing with depression?

No, I am not dealing with depression. Again, I have no idea how this questions fits this post.

Is there possibly spiritual influence being slowed to discourage you?

No, for two reasons off hand. 1st, I, along with most individuals here at SI, know discouragement up close. Discouragement is about as far out of step as one could be with this question. As to spiritual influences, I do not allow spiritual sways to manipulate my life.

Or have you had trouble with forgiveness?

Forgiveness is a very controversial word. I cannot begin to answer your question unless you were to give me a detailed explanation by what this word means to you. As it pertains to what it means to me, yes but I have suspicion that my idea of forgiveness is vastly different from your "spiritual" interpretation.

On several of these questions, to me the solutions speaks ....seek the Lord intensely. For many of those things we simply cannot do on human strength or will.

Thanks for the suggestion, but no, I’m good.

As far as people changing....of course we can be completely changed and new people. Out past does not have to define us, but most definitely there are consequences we simply may not be able to entirely rid ourselves for our whole life.

Interesting conclusion coming from a person of faith.

Asterisk

Notsogreateexpectations,

Asterix, I think I understand where you are coming from. Labels are static, people are not. I was betrayed in the past but it does not define me today.

It appears that you understand me perfectly. Well, as perfectly as anyone can understand me. 😊 Thanks for your supportive comment.

Gr8ful,

Your use of scripture without its full use is inappropriate for my post. I am asking you to please consider editing your post to include "Romans 3:23" "Matthew 7:3-5" and "Luke 6:41-42". To express god’s condemnation on one group or action without showing his full condemnation of all of us and how we are to have compassion towards others is rather handy.

Better yet please just remove your comment so I can remove mine, for neither belong on my thread or, in my opinion, on SI.

Asterisk

Sisson,

Labels aren't static.

Yes! Exactly, and I would like to add, actions are not static unless we force them to be. When we do, we risk becoming stuck, which is a new lesson for me to have learned so late in my reconciliation process.

Asterisk, You've taken some twists and turns that are pretty unusual in the 20th century

You have peaked my curiosity here. Your comments and suggestions have always been supportive and worth full consideration. Never, have I felt negatively judged by you.

I can see 'once a cheater, always a cheater' - and I can see 'once a good partner, always a good partner.' I just don't understand how I'm comfortable with both of those ideas.

I also can see feeling that way, but feelings are not truth. And if one wants to have a healthy reconciliation then, in my way of thinking, they would be wise to reconsider the permanency of "once a cheater always a cheater" and to think that if one is a good partner they will always be a good partner, that leaves one vulnerable to their own fall. For instance, I see myself as a good partner but by refusing to let go of the past, I was being a bad partner.

(Feel free to ignore that question.)

I would hope that I would never ignore your questions. I am aware that your thoughts and questions come from a place of the heart and are done so as a support. I have found that to be true from everyone here, even when I come to all of this from a different place and perspective from some others.

So, Asterisk, I wonder ... how do you feel about yourself, knowing that some people think 'once a BS, always a BS, and always defective'?

1st, thanks for sharing your 3 ways you feel about your question. It helps to not feel so all alone, when others share their struggles and successes.

As for me, I guess if it is helpful for a person who has experienced betrayal at the level that sexual betrayal is for most of us, to believe they will always be a betrayed spouse, then I will support them. But that support would include asking them if in fact their conclusion is helping them to recover. In my case, it kept me stuck, ruminating about failures from decades past and not allowing my wife to transform herself into the amazing, trustworthy person/wife she has become. If I maintained she would always be a cheater, then I would miss out on the precious gift she has given me – her changed and changing self. And I owe her to take a hard look at myself and change as well.

Asterisk

I saw someone mention potentially being afraid of labels -- I guess I see labels as both limiting and something other people project on to us.

On the other hand, identity is how I see myself.

I'm never worried about any label anyone has for me.

What you think of me is all on you and whatever you feel like you need to project.

I'm no more defined as a betrayed spouse than I am a football coach.

I coached football, I was betrayed -- they are part of my life experience, but neither is who I am or how I see myself.

I am a father, a husband, a brother and a super crazed baseball fanatic -- those form more of my identity than other life experiences.

Fatherhood is ongoing, even with adult sons. It is still my favorite thing to be here for them whenever they need, rare as those moments are. Being a better husband is ongoing, I think I'm starting to get the hang of it.

And yes, I'm one of those people who count the days until pitchers and catchers report to spring training. That's me.

Of my life experiences, I think my six years in the Marine Corps made a larger impact on my existence than infidelity.

This is knowing full well nothing has caused me greater emotional pain and trauma than infidelity did, and like all of my life experiences, I'll carry it the rest of my days.

It just isn't who I am.

Asterisk,

In response to a number of your responses to my comments....indicating you were not sure how my comments related to the post, I reread you post and I believe I found where the disconnect is.

Your post said "people have asked" why you are struggling so deeply with your wifes affair that was so long ago. I mistakenly read that as YOU posing the question to the readers "Why am I struggling so deeply after so long...?"

My answered were offering possible reasons this may have been true. The one you did not understand I would like to try to explain again, only because I have found it useful in my life.

The phenomena is this....described by example.

Suppose you were in the latter years of life, with many family being gone, or moved away...and say you live in an area where winter months drag on and create a dull and dreary atmosphere. Say these things give you a "down" feeling, yet you don't really specifically identify these factors as the cause.

That said, you do notice the down feeling and your subconscious or even consciousness....starts triggering thoughts of the historical affair because this "down" feeling you are experiencing now feels similar to the time surrounding the affair.

That is why I said, the feeling you have now (i.e. "Struggling so deeply") is "landing on" the affair, when in fact the feeling is as related to something else altogether.

I hope that explains what I meant.

If that still has no relevance, and you feel I have wasted your time, then I apologize...but know it was done in good faith in an effort to potentially give insight.

[This message edited by WoodThrush2 at 8:33 PM, Saturday, December 27th]

Asterisk, thank you for your thoughtful reply.

I am looking for flaws in my thinking to be kindly pointed out and for anyone that might find comfort in what I am writing

Bravo! I think it is so helpful when people know the intention behind their participation. Tho sometimes it is by participating that people come to know what they are looking for, especially at the beginning but even for me, there are times I’m drawn to SI and other times I’m not, and there is often an underlying reason to uncover.

Though I agree my wife’s decisions started the problem, but I, by clinging to the past, had become the problem.

I have come to understand that my husband and I both cycle between being confident, steady, and able to handle our past trauma, and re-living the trauma. He had a work setback a couple of months ago that left him feeling vulnerable. That vulnerable feeling triggered his betrayal trauma - would I think less of him because he didn’t do well at work? Think of leaving him? Look for someone more successful? Of course this was all happening inside of him, and it took a while for me to connect the external events with his internal state, but i finally realized that last week’s confident shadowfax was not this weeks betrayed and traumatised shadowfax, and I could adjust my support for him. I don’t return to wayward behavior or thinking but I do return to the feelings and beliefs that preceded that, and I can notice it and adjust and he can adjust and give me support that would feel unnecessary when I’m feeling steady.

So I think you can take out and put on the betrayed and wayward feelings when it fits, and that might happen when you are feeling vulnerable because of your age, being physically separate from your wife, or whatever it is that personally triggers a return to that state in you, and you can know what works for you and ask her to help you in the ways you have learned she can help. I think every time my husband returns to that vulnerable betrayed state things get a little more healed. It is not fun, but I know now that things are better on the other side, so I mentally clear my calendar and focus for a fe days.

Gr8ful, thank you for that, I do believe it and I feel clean (and when I start to feel a little unclean for one reason or another, I know how to pray, confess, etc). It was kind of you to post that verse and to emphasise it.