SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

I know, but having to live with the fact of no admission is making it hard.

You may never get that.

Be clear where YOUR boundaries lie.

Is she having an affair? Reads like it.

You can't control her, only your part of this.

I am extremely concerned for you, DazedandConfused. You already have more than ample warning that your house is on fire, not only in that your WW is in an affair, but also that the person she is in an affair with, is extremely dangerous to you and your family. You need to be PROTECTING your family from the Wicked Witch, the Evil shrew-Lady. So not only do you need to be protecting YOURSELF by filing for D, for your WW is actually ABUSIVE to you, but you need to be protecting yourself and your kids from this psycho your WW is in contact with.

Thanks all for your replies.
Trying to implement the 180.
So Thursday, after a few glasses of wine she got very very angry with me. Exploded seemingly out of nowhere. Lots of swearing. Again going on about how much I have let her down over the years, I wasn't there for her when she was going through x, y, z
Said twice to me 'in your next relationship' and said to me that I'm not being straight with her?!
She was like a different person, really really mad.
I said ok what do you want to do divorce? Reply was oh I bet that's what you want with a smirk. She isn't willing to do that as she will look like the bad person. I wish she would to put me out of my misery.

There will never been an admission.

I have his surname and work industry but after much googling nothing has come up yet.

It's so strained at home I am tempted to pack a bag, say that I know and you know. I won't tell anyone else. I am going away for the night and will be back tomorrow morning. In that time you can decide if you want to tell me the truth or not. I will leave it to you.
Not probably the best idea but feel like I'm going mad sitting around doing nothing.

What are the thoughts on PI? Is it legal?
I see one but looked too cheap? $200 for 7 hours work

Does anyone have any PI success stories?

Will make no difference for me in court as its no fault divorce

Sorry, that you are going through this. Her anger and lashing out is typical cheater behavior. It ends when you put an end to it. The mistreatment and disrespect is no way to live. Calmly and firmly set your boundaries. Don’t argue or engage, she will just lash out to hurt you. Always value yourself. You deserve a partner who is committed and loves you. Remember, you are the prize. Good luck.

Dazed: The guy on the phone could be someone that she owes money for drugs and or gambling. Look over your home and her car. Drugs can and does drastically change people. Watched it happen to my husband. The overnight away from your kids is too scary. Angry guy could show up and compromise their safety.

Her behavior is textbook.

She needs to "rewrite" your marriage to make you the villain to justify what she’s doing.

Read those books.

A PI will work. It’s bread-and-butter for them. They’ll need enough of a heads-up of her going out to get into gear.

Dazed

First – even before going much further past this first paragraph: Do a quick google-search and see if infidelity in any way might impact a divorce. Chances are it won’t. It can impact in maybe 3-4 states in the US, but few (if any European) countries. I think you will quickly see that the following might apply to you:

One big mistake or misunderstanding I see so often here on SI is where we – the betrayed spouse – think we need to prove to our cheating spouse that they are having an affair.
It’s like they think they aren’t cheating until we can pull out some glossy pictures of them in the act, and because we can’t prove it then it isn’t happening.

Another common mistake is thinking this is like Matlock or some TV show where you need clean, legally admissible proof. Where you need to be able to prove that there was no meddling with the semen-stained panties from when she dropped them in the laundry until the certified laboratory published their results. That we need the same level of conviction and reliability as in criminal-court, and that reasonable doubt has a very wide berth. Of course – if infidelity does impact D in your neck of the woods you will need legally admissible proof, and that is where an attorney will guide you better than some anonymous dudes on the internet.

Keep this in mind. There is only ONE person that needs to be convinced, and that is YOU.
Look – a prosecutor can’t build his case on that a known thief was caught on CCD walking into a store empty-handed and then out ten minutes later with a big backpack that looked full, even if what was missing would fill said backpack.
You – on the other hand – are allowed to assume infidelity if your wife says she’s working late and then comes home after midnight in that sleek cocktail-dress, takes a shower and still smells of booze and after-shave. You only need to convince a jury of ONE – YOU.

--
A lot of what you describe could be attributed to issues in the marriage. I personally think infidelity is such a terrible experience that I tend to NOT want more members on this site. I see a lot of red flags and smoking guns, but I think you still need a bit more...
I also think your wife isn’t really showing the level of deceit or even awareness that you suspect to make getting that "a bit more" too difficult. Like talking to potential OM on the phone at your home with others nearby... That does not sound like someone that suspects you suspect her...
Use that to your advantage.
Infidelity requires communications, and people tend to communicate where they feel safe and secure. Once you crack that – where does your wife feel safe to talk to potential OM – is when you place a voice-activated recorder.
Very often this is the drive to and from work. This might be the bathroom at home. This might be the bedroom while you and the kids are in the living-area.
These VAR’s come dirt-cheap, and you can even use a smartphone with the correct app.
Just remember a couple of things:
Acquaint yourself with the functionality: Some beep when they start recording, some have a green or red light, some burn through batteries...
This is ONLY FOR YOU. If you hear her call someone and talk about how great yesterday’s sex was... you don’t have to play it back to her to "prove" she’s cheating. YOU KNOW.
Be careful about the context of what you hear. Like she could be calling her mom and describe yesterdays Zumba class, and to your one-sided, infidelity-biased POV it could sound like she’s telling OM how great last night was.
Do your best to be the correct level of reasonable and logical.

So very sorry to hear what you're going through. There has been a ton of great advice in the previous posts, and this community will be a source of knowledge and strength for you, so I'm glad you're here (even though no one is glad to be here).

Just one add. You mentioned in a prior post about the idea of leaving the house for a night to give her a chance to decide whether she wants to remain married. I'm not an attorney, but I'd think twice about leaving the house. When I recently had DD#2 and decided to divorce my WH, my attorney felt it was important for me to stay in the house to help support the fact pattern that I've always lived in this house, I've always been in the marriage, etc. and he is the one who exited the marriage, through his affairs and by literally leaving the house. Maybe one night isn't a big deal, and like I said, I have zero legal training, but I suspect you might be better off finding a way to set the strong boundary and call the question with her, without you leaving your home.

Hi all,

Thanks for all your replies.
It's been a rough few days.
This weekend she has been quite cold towards me, very distant. A lot of texting on the phone. Quite angry a few times at me and the children.
We met for lunch today, she had a stressful morning at work. Cuddling into me at lunch, talking about the future. After lunch she got teary, cuddling me and said that she was overwhelmed with work and hormones as it's time of the month. Said that she feels comforted by me.
I's made me feel 10 time worse seeing her vulnerable like that.
Is it guilt/confusion?
Another couple of red flags over the weekend - she apparently met a friend in June to give a bday present, this person's bday was 4 months before.
I found her Xmas cards from me and the kids unopened - feeling guilty?
The kicker is that after her call with strange man in a dark room, she still has not brought this up again. As said previously he was quite pushy, maybe giving her an ultimatum. Not mentioned again, not even to try and reassure me.
I am just lost as to what to do next.
I can't carry on like this.
I feel that the only way is to confront again, when she is in a safe/vulnerable mood as she was earlier. Hopefully the guilt will be too much and she will come clean? On the other hand I have confronted three times and been met with anger, denial, blame and deflection.

Any thoughts?

I'm sorry brother but these are all the signs which I chose to ignore last year, they came back to haunt me this month and my fears came true.
She's hiding something, it could be an affair, but trust is a massive issue here.

I only found out through an anonymous letter coming through my door. Then everything made sense.

If it helps my stbxw swore there was no one else involved last year. Turns out that was a lie too.

Find your proof first as they won't always admit to being caught. Maybe they want to get caught? Maybe they want to cause you enough doubt so you leave without proof? It will never be their fault in their mind.

I don’t think you’re going to get a confession without hard proof. You really need to hide a VAR under the seat of her car. Or hire a PI. The PI would be my first go to unless there just isn’t any money to do it.

I had good success with a PI. Worth every penny. Read some of my blog posts it may be helpful. You are in for a wild ride, but full proof might finally break this Unreality she is living in and give some chance for a reconciliation. It will cost you more than you may be willing to pay, and I don’t mean monetarily, still I sense some hope for you in this approach. Sunlight can be a powerful disinfectant, but the poison can run very deep.

[This message edited by JimBetrayed62 at 6:49 PM, Monday, January 27th]

Many thanks all for your responses.
I think for now I need to rule out the PI route. Not sure I really want to see or hear what they will uncover and not sure I am strong enough to deal with the stress/anxiety in organising it all.
The fact is that I know.
She is going out again tonight and I know that I will be in pieces worrying all evening and driving myself mad.
I just cannot sit back any longer. The problem being we are still playing happy families at home. We have to. Our children are so young and we still need to dress/feed them and take them to school and their activities. I cannot let this disrupt their lives.
She knows that the children are my world and is using that to her advantage. If I did anything rash (file) the story would be that it was my decision, I'm the bad man, I didn't trust her, it's all in my head etc.

I think I have two choices MC or confront.

I know that MC seems to be discouraged by the members here, but there is a tiny hope I have that possibly in a neutral setting she may come clean if I lay out my doubts/her actions/lies etc.?
Now I have read that it seems very doubtful.

So confront?
Bearing in my mind the last three times I have done this it went very badly but looking back I was too passive and emotional.
I was met with real anger, gaslighting and deflection. No empathy at all. Turned it all around onto me and what a bad husband I have been.
Maybe I'm too sentimental/optimistic but part of me thinks that as a partner of 12 years and father to her children, surely the guilt must be eating away at her?
With the right approach, when she feels safe and loved is that the best time to raise?
Saying that if it has been going on for as long as I fear, there has been family holidays/events/meals with both sets of in-laws and she has breezed through those.
Who is this person?!?!
I just still cannot fathom how she could this to us (me and the children). Where is the respect, the morals, the decency? How can she sleep at night?
How can someone lie and betray like that. What about the guilt? And the disrespect of carrying on pretty much in front of me.
It messes with my head even more when she talks about the future, hugs me, tells me she loves me.
It needs to end as I can't take much more. HOW CAN I SET MY BOUNDARIES??

There is some good advice on here about how to go about confronting. It seems she needs a real sharp shock to get through to her.
At the moment she has the best of both worlds - the A plus the stability of me/house/family life.

I quite liked this -
I love you. We have an issue to discuss and I am counting on you being honest with me. I know you are having an A. If we intend to continue in our marriage we need to be honest with each other
If she starts to deny and/or lie - your next words are " Again, I’m asking for the truth. If you cannot be honest then I’m sorry you don’t respect me or our Marriage to be truthful".
And then leave the room. Walk away. If she tries to engage and continues to lie keep repeating the words "I expect you to be honest with me. I will not engage if you are lying"
"I want to be in a committed, open, and honest relationship. If you cannot respect me or my needs, then I will evaluate my desire to stay in this relationship.

Or not sure this is harsh enough? Make a mention of D/lawyer to make her know I am really serious??

Sorry if that's rambling. I need to let this out.

Thanks again all

P.S. any advice on how to keep the emotions at bay? As in not crying in public places/the office/home

I was met with real anger, gaslighting and deflection. No empathy at all. Turned it all around onto me and what a bad husband I have been.

Without proof it’s likely she will just turn all of this up to eleven.

Our children are so young and we still need to dress/feed them and take them to school and their activities. I cannot let this disrupt their lives.

Your WW’s choices are disrupting their lives. It’s driving their father to despair. There will be further disruption no matter what path you choose. You should attempt to limit it where possible, but you need to make peace as best you can that there will be consequences for everyone involved.

The best way to limit consequences for them is to take care of yourself, for the same reason people are advised to put on their own oxygen mask first. They deserve stable parents who teach by example. Since your WW has chosen to except herself from all of that you’re going to have to be the parent they can count on.

HOW CAN I SET MY BOUNDARIES??

First be clear with yourself what your boundaries are. Then decide how you will uphold them.

[This message edited by asc1226 at 5:05 PM, Thursday, January 30th]

You have put yourself in a corner and then bemoaned your location. You say that you can’t appear to be the bad guy who wrecked the marriage, but you also can’t stand to get the proof that she was the marriage wrecker. Gird your loins and get the facts. Hire a PI and put a lawyer on retainer. Or, make your corner your home. Bear in mind that Bigger is 100% correct that you don’t need proof beyond a reasonable doubt to divorce. In most places you don’t need evidence at all. But if you need to not look like the bad guy, you need evidence that she’s the culprit. Hire the PI. Rip the bandage off and start saving your family.

You don’t need a private investigator. Save your $.

You tell your wife this marriage is no longer working and you have decided to D. She can either do this amicably and save $ or get two attorneys to fight over every detail.

She asks why. You very politely say I’m certain you know why but to be clear, I’m not happy and neither are you. So it’s time to move on.

End of discussion. And I mean end of discussion.

On dday2 I told my H I was D him. It was a 20 second statement. It went like this:

"I’m sorry but I have no choice but to D you. I have nothing left to give you or this marriage. You are free to go and be with the OW or anyone else you like".

And I left the room. I knew he had been cheating. He knew he was cheating. I don’t need to state the reason I was divorcing him.

And neither do you.

And who cares if she tells everyone you are the bad guy. After the D you can tell anyone and everyone she’s a cheater. Or not.

I knew my H wanted to D me. He just didn’t want to start the process do he could absolve himself of any guilt or role in causing the D. In his mind he could blame me for it.

And at dday2 I really didn’t care what he thought or who he told what. My sanity was my focus and first priority, as well as getting out from under the infidelity cloud I lived under for far too long.

She is going out again tonight and I know that I will be in pieces worrying all evening and driving myself mad.
I just cannot sit back any longer. The problem being we are still playing happy families at home. We have to. Our children are so young and we still need to dress/feed them and take them to school and their activities. I cannot let this disrupt their lives.

As long as other people are in the equation, you can not control the outcome.

My bet is that your kids' lives have already been disrupted by your despair and unwillingness to act. You say you aren't strong enough for the truth. You're a human being - of course you're strong enough for the truth.

I agree that a PI would be a good investment for you, because you need to bolster your strength, and fact can do that. With a PI's report, you will be able to say with confidence, 'You know why I'm D'ing you.'

You're a lot stronger than you think.

You are in the stage of grief called bargaining. You want to turn back the clock so badly but this is your reality. I am so sorry you are being harmed by her behavior.

Do not let this go on too long because it impacts your immune system.

[This message edited by Cooley2here at 8:00 PM, Thursday, January 30th]