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My wife, or partner, and I had an argument recently over one word. Capable.

She told me she isn't capable of cheating anymore. The person who did those things isn't who she is now. She has changed, she understands what she did and she would never do it again.

I told her I don't agree, capability is provable and......

That didn't go over particularly well, and I understand why. When I say she is still capable of cheating, I think what she hears is, "You haven't changed. I don't believe you. I think you're going to cheat again."

That's not what I'm saying, or at least not really.

I absolutely believe people can change. If I didn't, there wouldn't be much point in even talking about reconciliation. People can become more honest, less selfish, more self-aware, learn better boundaries and finally start recognizing all those small shitty decisions that eventually lead somewhere they never should have gone. Someone who cheated can change enough that they never cheat again.

I just don't think that suddenly makes them incapable of it. Without starting the argument of everyone is capable or not, I am NOT capable of this type of betrayal.

Before D-Day I believed my wife was incapable of doing what she did. Not that she probably wouldn't do it. I actually believed she couldn't. There were lines I thought she simply would never cross because of who she was, who I thought we were, our marriage, our kids, our life together.

I was painfully fucking wrong. She crossed those lines. More than once. For years.

So now I know something I didn't know before. She is capable of it. That's not me insulting her or saying she will do it again. It's something that has already been proven. I don't know how I am supposed to take something I know happened and somehow convince myself she is now incapable of doing it because she says that version of herself doesn't exist anymore. Capable and will are not the same definition.

She may never cheat again. I genuinely hope she doesn't whether we stay together or not. But choosing never to do something again and being incapable of doing it aren't the same thing.

The more I thought about the argument, the more I started thinking that maybe "I could never do that again" isn't actually the safest thing for someone who has cheated to believe.

I think I'd feel safer hearing, "I know now that I am capable of doing something I once thought I would never do, and I never want to become that person again."

There's something about "I'm not capable of that anymore" that bothers me because I've already lived through that kind of certainty once. Before D-Day I would have confidently told anyone who asked that my wife wasn't capable of cheating on me. Turns out I didn't know shit.

Certainty didn't make me right then, so I'm not sure why I'm supposed to put much faith in that same certainty now.

I think there is probably more safety in actually owning it. I did this. I was capable of this. Through selfishness, secrecy, resentment, wanting validation, shitty boundaries and a long series of bad choices, I became somebody who could do this. Now I need to understand how the hell I got there so I never go there again.

That makes sense to me.

I'm capable of losing my temper. I'm capable of being selfish. I'm capable of hurting people I love. Knowing that doesn't mean I want to do those things or that I'm planning to. It means I know those things exist in me and I have to pay attention to them. Pretending I'm somehow above them wouldn't make me safer. It would probably do the opposite, complacency is a slow driver of failure.

I don't see why cheating should be completely different.

Real change, at least to me, isn't reaching some point where you suddenly become physically or morally incapable of ever betraying someone again. It is knowing what you were capable of, understanding how you allowed yourself to get there, and making different choices from then on. Over and over again.

There is also a shitty reality in this for the betrayed spouse.

I don't think I can ever go back to the kind of trust I had before, where I believed my wife simply wasn't capable of betraying me. I had that trust already. It was wrong. There is evidence now that I can't unknow.

That doesn't mean I can never trust her again. I just think trust after betrayal has to be something different.

Before, trust was I know you would never do this to me.

Now maybe the best it can ever become is, I know you could do this to me because you already have. But I see who you are now, I see the choices you make every day, and I believe you won't.

That's nowhere near as romantic. But it might actually be more real and to be fair adult.

I don't want my wife walking around for the rest of her life thinking she is permanently branded as a cheater or some fundamentally defective person. I don't think that's healthy or useful. People should be allowed to grow beyond the worst things they've done, hell I am not a sum of my worst deeds.

But growing beyond something isn't the same as pretending somebody else did it. That woman existed. She made those choices. She was my wife too.

I actually think accepting that is probably part of becoming safer.

Not I would never.

Not that wasn't really me.

Not I'm incapable of doing that now.

Just, I know I'm capable of it because I did it. I know where those choices took me. I know what it cost. And I never want to be that person again.

I trust that a hell of a lot more, and holds at least a little bit of accountability.

Hi Gemmy,

As always, very thoughtful post. Your distinction between capability and choice isn't just semantics, it's the core difference between real accountability and cheap reassurance.

It reminds me of the "perfect storm" debate we’ve had around here before (I think it was Morbs or Not My Identity). The argument goes that anyone is capable of cheating if the exact right storm of stress, opportunity, and vulnerability aligns. It's an un-defeatable argument, because if you point to a lifelong faithful person, they just say, "Well, they just never hit their specific breaking point."

I don't buy that argument either. Principled people hold their boundaries precisely when the storm hits.

That said, your point about the word capable uncovers something fundamental: saying "I could never do that" is a privilege reserved only for people who haven't done it.

If you have a lifetime track record of fidelity, you’ve earned the right to say "I'm not capable of that." But once you cross that line, you forfeit that privilege forever. Claiming "I'm not capable of that anymore" is an attempt to reclaim a status she burned down, while bypassing the uncomfortable reality of what she actually proved she could do.

Her saying "I'm incapable" is a defense mechanism to make herself feel like a good person again. I don't blame her, I still think for the likes of you and me it would be far worse to live with yourself being a betrayer than betrayed - though that's reliant on the betrayer in question being a morally sound person, which won't be true in all cases. 

Blind certainty failed you once. Refusing to buy into it a second time isn't stubbornness—it's realism. I still believe complete trust is in a relationship generally, but once that privilege is shattered, you shouldn't just hand it back over. However, that doesn't mean you can never give full trust to someone again in the future.

Everyone is capable! Cheating is a choice.

Everything you wrote is a rational and reasonable way for a bs to feel. And what you are looking for and requiring for reconciliation is perfectly reasonable.

I am not debating you with what I am getting ready to say, I am just going to share my own evolution of that. It’s antedoctal of course, and may not apply to who your wife is.

I remember debating this very subject in the forum early in my journey because I felt the way your wife did.

In all actuality, getting the responses I did to those statements did help me reframe it and I started thinking of it as vigilance. For a long time I was careful to say the sort of phrases you are outlining.

But the reality after years of growth and the benefit of hindsight is oncemy husband knew and I saw the destruction, I do not think I was capable from very early after telling him despite how it was being framed to me in the forum by the bs folk even though I credit them for helping me every step of the way)

It’s one way to behave in secret, you can justify it. You can tell yourself a lot of lies that makes it okay. When discovered, there are deeper feelings of shame, humiliation. Watching my husband writhe in pain and the way he was effected by it as something I never wanted to experience again after all my flippant behaviors, my disregard of him.

I never wanted to experience any of that again because whatever I thought was getting from the affair dissipated into a worthless set of activities that ruined both the lives of my husband and I. It truly felt like it was the stupidest thing I could have ever done.

I truly would have put a fork in my eye than to go through all the discovery again. It was excruciating.

Now, that isn’t the reasons it should have been of course. Nine years later, I have a deeper connection with my values, I have built up to self actualization, and the things that fill my life with joy are wholesome true things I could hold up for the world to see. And I wouldn’t trade that, nor have I lost the vigilance I hold over self honesty and awareness.

It no longer is I am. I am no longer just Incapable of another affair because I could never face the fallout again. I just would never find it to be an attractive choice for the life I continually build. I haven’t come this far to only come this far.

But being incapable of it for different reasons doesn’t make it untrue.

There is not a thing wrong with how you see it, what you have said, etc. I am just saying it’s not a bad thing that the fallout is hitting her so hard that she sees the impact of her actions. I think that’s needed to become reconciliation material.

So for what it’s worth, I believe her for the short term while everything in her life is smacking her. But you are right, she needs to move past the shame l, guilt and humiliation and build a person who this wouldn’t look attractive to even without the consequences being a consideration.

Safety evolves, but from a bs perspective, what you are saying is dead on, and it’s her onus to continue to evolve and prove that safety.

[This message edited by hikingout at 7:35 PM, Tuesday, September 8th]

Even if she believes she is incapable of it, two observations;

1. She is no where near as far down the path as someone like hikingout where you might actually trust them when they say it, and
2. Her getting defensive and hurt when you don’t simply accept that blanket statement is a huge problem.

She still wants cheap grace.

I don’t think I will ever trust another person in the way I did my ex wife, and I sure as hell wouldn’t have ever trusted her the same if we had stayed together. What she had from me was complete, blind trust. Romantic? Sure. Dangerous? Absolutely. You just don’t need to give any other person that level of trust, IMO. My girlfriend and I have said many times that we want to keep that small fear of losing the other, so as to not take each other for granted and not open the door to the hazards that 100% certainty introduces. We can never unsee what we have seen. Her getting defensive about that is nonsense.

I agree w everyone else here.

1. It is indeed a search for cheap grace. She is trying to off-load her sins onto 'her past self' so she'll be absolved of at least some of the responsibility.

2. Didn't she already promise to be faithful when the two of you were at the alter some 15 years ago?

3. You are in serious pain still, and her efforts to help you or rather to be there with you, have been SEVERELY lacking.

4. Her defensiveness is quite telling. After all she put you through, she is angry at you because you said you don't believe her? Seriously?

/

[This message edited by WontBeFooledAgai at 5:32 PM, Tuesday, September 8th]

I am thinking of another BH on here...whose WW's work with her therapist seemed to only amount to helping her feel better for what she did. I'd be very VERY careful Gemmy, that seems to be what is going on w your WW.

Coming up on a year now. Granted, all I know is from what you have been posting and a small snippet from the other side. But I’m still standing by my assessment that she’s still all performative unfortunately.
Not to say that can’t change.

Everyone is capable! Cheating is a choice.

Agreed.

Gemmy, I completely understand the umbrage. I had a similar conversation with my ex-wife once upon a time. "I'm not that person anymore" was an unimpressive, unbelievable statement at the time. It took me a hot minute to understand why it may not have meant much to me, but made a lot of sense to her.

Infidelity is self-destructive. The first person a wayward betrays is himself.

We can tell ourselves that our philosophy is sound, our morals and values righteous and grounded, convince ourselves that we are superior, and blah, blah, blah...

None of that matters. It's window dressing, fluffing our egos, mental masturbation.

The difference between someone who cheats and someone who hasn't is the willingness, the weakness, the desperation, to self-destruct and blow-up their own lives.

At some point - around 18 months after d-day - I trusted that my ex-wife would never, ever choose to self-destruct again. When that empathy kicked in for me, reconciliation became possible.

Maybe you're not there yet. Maybe you never will be. It's incredibly hard to see beyond our own pain for a while.

I try to imagine walking in someone else's shoes to understand who they are, how they became that way, to get a glimpse inside their psyche. I seek to understand. And when I started to understand my ex-wife, her whys, her issues, her growth, I began to understand how absolutely fucking horrible it must have felt to have deliberately blown-up her own life, to have self-destructed in such a spectacular manner.

I sure as shit wouldn't want to ever feel that way. I understood.

[This message edited by Unhinged at 6:37 PM, Tuesday, September 8th]

This is exactly what I am afraid of. Honestly sometimes it feels like straight regurgitation and that therapy is teaching her to be "ok" with what she has done. It is always "that was the old me. I have changed going forward. My eyes are open now". All may be true but it feels rehearsed.

Your skepticism is natural and warranted. Healing and reconnecting, deeper conversations, may change that. Then again, maybe not. Either way, the judgement call is fucking hard.

You know, I just thought of something that may help you.
You have had a lot of former WS post in your threads helping you. Now, I can’t find the words to accurately describe them except for the phrase "they get it"
I think you probably know the feeling I am trying to convey.
You should go back and read their threads from when they first got here. You can see the evolution, and the time it took for each step to happen. Compare and contrast those threads with your experience.
Find the similarities and differences.
BTW, this is a graded assignment and will count towards your major grade.

Gemmy:

This is exactly what I am afraid of. Honestly sometimes it feels like straight regurgitation and that therapy is teaching her to be "ok" with what she has done. It is always "that was the old me. I have changed going forward. My eyes are open now". All may be true but it feels rehearsed.

Her "eyes are open now"??? What the hell does that even mean? It didn't occur to her BEFORE the pain her infidelity would cause you and your family?

If I were you, I would accept that it is a 99.999% certainty that her "work" has been all about *excuse me*, ALLLLLL about making her not feel so bad about her cheating. I'm basing this off of what I've read in your threads so far, all the nonsense coming out of your WW's mouth that seems to have had origins from her therapist's office.

And meanwhile, I'd warn YOU to be aware of the Reconciliation-Industrial Complex out there, which will push you to just get with the program and R with your WW. Don't fall for THAT either!

I remember a sermon where the pastor said that if we were alive a million years, we would break every commandment. I don’t think of myself as a murderer but there would be a set of circumstances that would make murder irresistible, like the monkey randomly typing that eventually types a Shakespeare play. I think the context was reading the Hebrew bible as a commentary on the inevitability of human failure and need for a saviour. I’m not conveying this idea with the same persuasion and power as that pastor, but it totally struck home for me. I don’t say I’m incapable of anything now, but of course once you say that you are indeed in a pickle without some kind of divine help.

We're all capable of quite a bit -- it is the real changes we make that can correct bad behavior, bad choices.

For me, this is why the "why" was so important.

Some WS are resentful and selfish, some chase the fantasy and others have poor coping skills or lousy self-esteem, it is how they react after they hurt you that can matter the most. If there is no remorse, or it becomes about them wanting to move on without course corrections that make them unsafe.

Many WS betray themselves, their standards, their own principles, and I needed to understand why my wife's boundaries held up flawlessly for YEARS and then vanished during the A.

My wife was literally perfect at everything, never missed a day of school (all A's, never earned a B or lower), or a day of work, hit every parent teacher meeting, great. Every one of my lifelong friends made a move on her at some point, either before our M or after and she didn't flinch.

I thought we were bulletproof.

It turns out, she was very capable of failing herself (and me and our family).

Truth is always self-evident.

Clearly, she was capable.

So, the work to be safe was looking at how her own standards failed.

I think one of the first questions all BS should have is, if someone is not feeling up to their own standards, or building resentments in life, what will stop this from happening again?

Counseling revealed a lot about her childhood and not really experiencing healthy, happy love before -- not knowing what it was. And her boundaries had eroded over time, because ALL attention was good attention for her as life disappointed her. Being perfect made her miserable. Thus, the opportunities she previously ignored looked better than before.

Safe primarily included her rebuilding her own self-esteem.

AP dropped her in a harsh manner, so it killed most of the fantasy bullshit on the spot.

Safe also meant she had to share far more and far better than she did before (zero communication in her family, the most complex conversation they ever have is about the weather).

Safe, I think, is a similar path for most WS, but not exactly the same.

I can see how your WS IC would want your wife to not feel like a villain, that esteem is important for you wife, whether you R or not.

However, I would hope she is doing a better job of owning it. The choice. That capability you mentioned.

Owning it for my wife was HUGE for our chances.

I don't lose sleep these days, because the relationship is much stronger than anything we had before -- because we KNOW what it looks like when there is a divide in the M or stress buries one of us or the other, and we reach out now, instead of keeping our fingers crossed.

I guess the results vary based on how much work is really done, versus lip service and/or hoping for the best.

Politely, I don't think sincerely believing oneself "incapable" of cheating and lacking a previous history of it grants one the omniscience required to know how they would respond in the infinite number of combinations of internal states and external situations possible in one's lifetime. I think it's reasonable to be fairly confident that you most likely won't ever cheat. But as I've mentioned in other discussions, there is a certain degree of unnecessary risk involved with declaring oneself "incapable" that is easily enough resolved by regarding infidelity as a possibility, no matter how small-- not because you are "that kind of person" but simply because humans are fallible-- and conducting oneself accordingly. You cannot manage risk of that which you deny exists, as I have learned.

As for your wife... Maybe you could supply her with the same wording I was gifted here: "I am unwilling to cheat again." This can be perfectly descriptive of a reformed WS's internal, present, and potentially ongoing state without the same claim of omniscience that "incapable" implies. You can also respond to her the way you have worded it here: "I believe you won't." It neither concedes that she is incapable while also conveying that you believe she has changed.

I’ve got to say, I’m with WBFA on this.

What could "My eyes are open now" possibly mean in this context, except a claim that she was somehow unaware cheating was wrong or would inflict so much pain and trauma?

First, I don't believe anyone can genuinely be that detached from basic empathy. Second, if she were that disconnected, I doubt therapy alone would be enough to turn that around.

This is exactly what I am afraid of. Honestly sometimes it feels like straight regurgitation and that therapy is teaching her to be "ok" with what she has done. It is always "that was the old me. I have changed going forward. My eyes are open now". All may be true but it feels rehearsed.

My experience was that therapy helped me sort out the toxic shame and gain self compassion.

I know where you sit this doesn’t yet sit right, prove anything, make you feel better. And honestly it shouldn’t. You should be self protective and you should not just be bowled over with any of it.

But shame is not an emotion like guilt or remorse, it’s not helpful. It is the believe you are bad at your core.

For me, it made me feel like I wasn’t worthy of love, and it eroded my marriage. I can’t claim that for your wife.

What I am trying to get at is at first there is this deer in the headlight thing that happens when you are caught, and the pressure cooker of knowing if you don’t get to the root of this you are about to lose you marriage.

One has to calm down and get situated, and it’s awkward. It probably does feel rehearsed and her depth in who she is, who she wants to be, will get less shallow over time if she is truly committed to the process.

I can’t claim if she is or isn’t. I am trying to affirm there is a process of getting healthy that for some period of time that actually isn’t conducive to actual reconciliation. To hold that space for yourself while making relational repairs is a tightrope for some period of time.

It’s natural consequences of her actions that she has to learn to walk this tightrope, but I think k your best bet is not to study her so closely. It takes a lot of time and space to make the kinds of changes she is hoping to makes you are best to stay in your detachment and keep focusing on your own healing.

It’s normal what you are doing because there is part of you that hopes she succeeds and part of you may be fearful of it because then it feels like she is doing everything and brings the pressure to your doorstep. These are pitfalls best avoided by remaining detached, and of she gets this plane to fly, you will know it and feel it.

It’s hard because she still holds your love, but also your disdain and which one is winning can change by the minute. You will exhaust yourself.

You are better placed to think —she is dealing with the fallout of her actions and right now that makes her feel like she never wants to do it again. But just like children people forget consequences over time and reoffend. It’s okay to believe right now she isn’t planning on more betrayal, that’s completely believable to me. But you are right to know that she hasn’t had time to change and it’s not safe in the longterm. You must look at the longterm before you decide to go in and start doing the hard work of reconciling.

My point in my last post is the reason she feels she is safe must evolve but it’s not wrong to feel so shaken to your core that you don’t want to go through it again. This is where change can actually happen.

People are self centered to the extent that often they won’t change until the pain of not changing is greater than the pain they must endure to make the changes. She should feel the way she is claiming right now, even if we all realize it’s still not with the same level of reliability that is needed

You fighting about this shows you are invested in the outcome still and that’s actually also a positive sign that reconciliation has a chance to occur in the future. And you are saying it with your eyes wide open, and staying honest with yourself.

I’ve got to say, I’m with WBFA on this.

What could "My eyes are open now" possibly mean in this context, except a claim that she was somehow unaware cheating was wrong or would inflict so much pain and trauma?

First, I don't believe anyone can genuinely be that detached from basic empathy. Second, if she were that disconnected, I doubt therapy alone would be enough to turn that around.

Fully disagree.

The reason cheating is possible for people is their ability to lie to themselves and minimize risk.

I 100 percent didn’t have any idea of the real damage I was going to cause. I knew what I was doing was wrong, but until I saw that filtered through my husbands pain I greatly underestimated it. It really is part of the "cheaters handbook."

When you don’t hold something at a great value you tend to believe your partner is the same as you. And this has been said so many times by ws and their bs repeating it. I sometimes think some people see the value much more strongly are the ones who don’t cheat.

And empathetic people feel more of their own feelings, my biggest barrier to empathy was I brushed mine under the rug, disassociated all the time.

Seeing the damage is a different experience for a lot of us, we have talked ourselves out of that. When the person cheats again, that is when I think that it’s bullshit.

I am not advocating that you reconcile by the way, not at all. I am just providing a common perspective amongst ws.

[This message edited by hikingout at 8:07 PM, Tuesday, September 8th]

This is where snapshots can become a little cloudy. I believe what she meant when she said, "my eyes are wide open now," is that she finally sees how flawed her perception of me, and really of our marriage, had become.

She has admitted that her view of me was jaded from very early on, and that some of that likely came from needing to justify her betrayal before we were even married. Once you have done something you know is wrong, it becomes a lot easier to start rewriting the person you are hurting into someone who somehow deserved it.

She has also acknowledged that when I tried to talk about frustrations, disagreements, or what I would consider normal and healthy anger, she often responded with avoidance and exaggerated what was actually happening. Instead of hearing, "My husband is frustrated and wants to work through something," she would experience it as something much bigger and more threatening than it really was.

So when she says her eyes are open now, I don't think she means she suddenly discovered some new version of me. I think she means she is finally able to look back and recognize that the version of me she had created in her own head was not always an accurate one.

That doesn't undo the damage caused by that perception, but I do think recognizing it matters.