SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

So my wife and I have been working together and individually in counseling. I hade the affairs. We have been dealing with this for around 4 years now. We have had some smooth times, rough times and we both continued to work at it. We both still are. I lied to my wife many times that she new everything and she didn't. At this point she does know everything. Here is the problem. She now is unable to believe me when I tell her, she knows everything. I totally understand why she can't trust me now. We sat our kids down and told them. Of course they were upset with me. We sat her parents down and I told them. They were and have been very supportive. My wife complains, rightly so, that I do not talk to her enough about the affairs, any work I have been doing. Whe. We do talk, I try to answer any questions truthfully she has. I am just not the type of person who talks that much and know that I need to be that type of person for her. I still struggle with that. 2 of the affairs were online. Never any in person contact. The 3rd affair was with a lady I worked with. There where never any meet up or in person secret spot to go to. I was in a very low, dark place personally. The first affair was with the lady I work with. I would share with her how I felt, tell her how I wanted my life back, which was wanting my job back. I had been laid-off from the job that I really did love. After awhile with her, it had become a one way street. She was relying on me to here all of her problems in life, there was a lot! That is when I moved on line to my next two affair partners. My wife found out and I lied to her face that there was nothing to it. I continued to lie to her each time she found out about each affair partner. Yes, I do realize now, that I should have come clean in the beginning. I know each time I lied I it was a form of abuse, I could not see it at that point. She still suffers today, everyday, because of the affairs and all the lying. She has pulled back from me now, for almost a year. My lack of helping her and my lack of doing more work on myself. We are now and have been in one of those rough patches. Sheaskedme to take a lie detector test. I laughed about it in front of her. She was crushed. I later explained that I thought lie detectors tests were worthless. The only information on them I had was what I had seen on TV. A few weeks later, I told her I would take one and she said to put a hold on it. She didn't think I was doing it to help, but doing it to jump through a hoop. I am putting this thread in General because I think it will have more people look at it and more people respond on it. I did put a thread a couple months ago in Wayward. I am still in counseling. Just would like to find others to talk to about it.

She didn't think I was doing it to help, but doing it to jump through a hoop.

So prove to her that you’re not just checking a box to pacify her. Research operators in your area. Have them work with your wife to develop the questions. Have you written a timeline that includes all of your inappropriate behavior back to when you became a couple? One of the questions should verify that the timeline is true and complete. Show some initiative.

I laughed about it in front of her.

She may feel that you have invalidated her thoughts and feelings. She may feel that you don't listen to what she's saying or trying to say, and that it is of so little importance to you that you would mock her about it.

You may wish to apologize and let her know that what she says and how she feels is important to you. When she's talking about the A or recovery, what she says is important. Take the time to show her that you're thinking about what she's saying, and that you want to know how she's feeling.

I am just not the type of person who talks that much and know that I need to be that type of person for her.

Why don't you plan (schedule) a time each day or every other day to discuss the A and the work you're doing with your wife? It doesn't have to be for very long, maybe 15 minutes, unless she begins asking questions and the time goes longer.

There are a couple of techniques that development teams use as a retrospective of the previous sprint (time when they did work and then released.) One technique is the sad, mad, glad. Another is the 4 L's: Liked, Learned, Lacked and Longed for. You could use this as a framework to talk about what you've done since your last talk.

I am just not the type of person who talks that much and know that I need to be that type of person for her.

But you shared your thoughts and feelings with your aps, right?

If so, you're not seeing yourself as you are. That's a big problem. Do you talk about that in your IC sessions? What do you need to do to share your thoughts and feelings with your W?

Besides, why stay with someone who requires you to be someone you're not? Are you saying you want to be someone who shares your thoughts and feelings with your W?

What are your goals with IC?

Not totally BTW, I applaud your courage in posting this in G.

I agree with Sissoon that your act of posting is brave, thoughtful and bodes well. I am not sure from your post how long was the timeframe between your affairs and your reaching full disclosure. It took my husband seven years to come out with the full truth. I have been honest with him that it is unlikely at this point that I will ever be able to truly trust what he says. I think we all have different components of our personality, different selves within our self. Some part of me can and does trust him. That part is strongest when we have a "talk" about the past and what really happened. There is a lot of repetition of facts we have already gone over. When we go more than two days without a talk my trust starts to drift. It has been a year and a half since full disclosure so maybe it will get better with time but I am not counting on that. The length of time of a talk depends on the BS I think. Someone suggested fifteen minutes. That would not be enough for me. It takes me fifteen minutes to settle down then fifteen to get my questions out and I need some time at the end to regroup before we return to our kids or responsibilities or whatever so I would talk to her about how long she needs. Your response about the lie detector was insensitive but to be fair we all say insensitive things. You are going to make mistakes here. Just apologize and move forward. It is a process. You both need to keep checking in about your willingness to do the work—it is grueling.

Kudos on having the courage to post in the General forum.

Your wife cannot believe what you are saying because you have proven yourself to be a liar. She will respond favorably to ACTIONS, consistently and for the long term. The way that I have been able to stay with my husband has been through his ACTIONS over the last 8 years. He has been taking the actions necessary to help me heal for 8 years. This work is a consequence to the actions he chose to take by participating in an affair. The work has been really difficult but rewarding for him and for our marriage. What you have done requires years of work for you to become a better human and to bring some sense of healing to your BS. Know that we do not "get over" affairs. We learn to live with them. That is very, very hard. It is hard forever.

1. Does your wife have access to all of your internet accounts? You should take the ACTION of providing her with this voluntarily.
2. Are you accountable for your whereabouts at all times? You should take the ACTION of having a tracking app on, day and night. Also voluntarily.
3. One of the suggestions here has been to schedule a time each day to discuss the affair, which is a good ACTION to take. Also, Sisoon pointed out that you were able to discuss your feelings with your APs - why can't you provide the same level of communication with your wife? She needs this from you. You are correct when you say that you need to be a person who takes the ACTION of being a remorseful spouse, and discuss the affairs. It is not about your comfort level. It is about supporting a person who you have emotionally destroyed. A person you say you love. If you love your wife, you need to find a way to meet her needs above your own. TBH, If I read a post where my husband stated that he was able to share his feelings with an AP and not with me, his wife, I would have felt incredible rage and betrayal. You might want to think about why that is and why you posted it.
4. Take the ACTION of setting up a lie detector test and making it possible for the operator to consult with your wife on questions. You are right. Laughing at her very reasonable request shows her that you are not considering her needs above your own feelings/needs. This has been the status quo in your relationship. This has to change. You need to show her that you can be safe and that is all about ACTIONS and taking responsibility for yours. You say your wife told you to put a hold on the lie detector test. If you take the ACTIONS as recommended above, it will show her that you are doing it to help.

I am going to be very straight with you. Many cheaters say that there has been no physical contact, when there has been. If you worked with an AP, the natural assumption is that you found time to do more than just talk. Adults express themselves sexually. A lie detector test is a great ACTION to take to alleviate your wife's fears about physical contact - and she has them, I assure you.
5. Your first thought and last thought every day should be "What can I DO to make my wife feel that I am remorseful and want the honor of a marriage to her"? Then, DO it. Whatever she needs, you do. Think of things that she might need from you without being intrusive. ASK her if you are not sure. This will show her that you are thinking about how to help her after your lack of integrity caused her life to implode. Your #1 job is to help the person you love to heal as a result of your actions.
6. I am glad you are in IC. I hope you set that up for yourself. You need to take the initiative for things like this. It is not your wife's problem, or the problem of the marriage. It is YOUR problem.

I just want to add a comment about calling your APs "ladies". That would trigger me as a BS. These people are not "ladies" in any sense of the word. A "lady" does not begin and affair, emotional or otherwise, with a married man. It is important to see them for who they are to be in solidarity with your wife. She needs to feel that you are on her side. It might make you feel less trashy to think of them as "ladies", but the reality is that your behavior HAS been trashy - and they are trashy too.

You have basically posted the exact same post,several times. You continue to get the exact same advice, you thank everyone,then you leave..and eventually post the same thing.

I am sad to see your wife offered you a chance to prove what you claim is the truth..and instead of jumping for joy, you laughed at her. Your reason doesn't hold water, because the polygraph has been suggested..several times..in all of your threads. Why hadn't you done any research on it,at any point over the last few months,since it was first suggested? Odd for a man saying he would do anything. And to laugh at her? I think her pulling away,and not insisting on a polygraph anymore,is the healthiest thing for her.

You say you understand, but it's very clear that you don't. If you did, you wouldn't feel the need to bring up a few of the consequences your actions have caused you. You also would have taken the multiple polygraph suggestions, researched them, and scheduled a test with a competent administrator. You would have offered it to her.

You say you understand why she can't believe..while also basically saying how unfair it is that she doesn't believe you,because this time she actually knows everything. You may know that. She doesn't. That's a consequence of your lies,and actions.

It sounds as if you have little patience with her inability to trust you. Maybe you are pressuring her to heal faster than she should.

Instead of reading the responses and disappearing until the next thread,asking the same question, take in the advice. Figure out how to put the advice into action.

And..understand..healing takes 3 to 5 years. That can't start until the very last truth has been told. And,even then, she very well may never fully trust you again. You need to be ok with that. Really ok with it.

[This message edited by HellFire at 10:16 PM, Saturday, December 30th]

I lied to my wife many times that she new everything and she didn't. At this point she does know everything. Here is the problem. She now is unable to believe me when I tell her, she knows everything.

You need to understand that she does not know everything, she never will know everything, no matter how hard you try, you will never be able to tell her everything, you may be able to tell her enough for her to get through this and maintain your relationship, but there is far more to it than that. For the rest of her life, she will know that she does not know everything, that you and another person know and experienced things in your marriage that she does not know about.

The lying just makes it all that more difficult to deal with that.

4 years is no time at all to deal with this shitpile.

  Moving to Wayward Side

We do have a time line. I lied about the first one. This one we have is the truth. When I was in a dark place, I had spoken with my wife about how I was feeling. She sat and listened. She offered great advice. Me continually going to a high stress job, that I absolutely hated felt like it pushed me farther down in a hole. I felt at the time I couldn't continue telling my wife that I wasn't feeling better or things weren't getting better. I felt that I had gone to her so many times, with the same worries, the feeling that I was not getting better or able to see things better. Feeling terrible about myself, losing my job, losing my identity. When I was between jobs, I wouldn't hardly leave the house. I would sit in a chair, feeling paralyzed. Feeling embarrassed. Even though I had nothing to do with losing my job. It was a very dark time. Leafields,I have apologized for laughing at her suggestion. have let her know her thoughts and how she feels is important to me. We have done as you say, scheduled daily, weekly talks. I have been the one who has failed to keep those going. I tried, I wanted to. I just failed at it. Like you said, some were 15 minutes, some 1 1/2 hours. Some went well, some didn't. I think we both grew no matter how it went. Those techniques you talked about, any other information on them? Where can I find d more information on them? Sisson, I did share how I felt with my affair partners. I quit sharing with my wife because I felt like I had gone to her too many times, with the same old story. She never said I came to her too many times or complained that I was. It was my own feeling that I was. Possibly me seeing I was not doing better, I'm not sure. I know one of my goals in ic is to figure out who I am and why I am certain ways. One thing I knew is I never stopped loving my wife, I never loved myself. I have learned that I would keep feelings on myself, to myself. I have learned that I am avoidant on lots of things. I 5hink ic has been good for me. I think it would have helped me when I first lost my job. I'm sure it would have. Taking a person with low or little self esteem and going threw what I did, I'm sure it would have helped. We talked last night, we both are still wanting to put in the work and make our marriage work out.

Wolfpack

I want to second the post about you coming and basically posting the same question/issue again and again…
Don’t get me wrong – you are perfectly allowed to do so. But I think you have already gotten some really good advice (esp DaddyDom) and that you should be following or replying to some of the suggestions already offered…

I want to add a couple of points:

You can’t be whole in one area but not another…
You can’t be honest to your wife and not honest in other areas in your life. You need to really evaluate EVERYTHING and work towards contentment. Like you mention having been in a job you hated, stressful and all that, the constant lying and basically not giving us a portrait of a well-balanced and fruitful life.
I suggest you really look at your life – not only your marriage – and evaluate how good, how happy and how content it/you are. Then make plans and take steps to reach a better place.
I’m not so naïve as to suggest you quit your job, or go from sales (or whatever you are in) to your life-long passion of puppetry. You need to put the bacon on the table. But really look into what is stressing you, what is making you unhappy and what you can do to mitigate or change those things. Improve yourself, and others will note the change.

Then your wife… If you constantly place more and more burden on someone then might remain crooked even when you think you have lessened their load… Your wife might need professional help, and that help is not intended to make her like you. It’s more that she might benefit from therapy to be able to see the world without the blemish of infidelity wrecking her view.

Are you still working in the environment where you had your affair(s)? Have you been able to offer your wife some assurances or tools to make her feel safe about that?

Finally – and this is a big one… Your life sounds disruptive and chaotic… How are your finances?
Strange as it might sound then maybe the best MC my wife and I did was when we got on the same page regarding finances. Somehow, having to sit together and budget, decide what order to pay debts, set aside for a holiday and all that gave us something other and new to focus on, and has led to a financial peace that has destressed our lives to a great extent.

Thank you Bigger for your response. First off I'm new to this forum and haven't really used forums in a long time, so posting two of the same questions is a mistake on my part. I agree, I have gotten some good advice from others and I do go back and reread the responses. After talking with my wife and telling her of the responses I have gotten, we both think I should give an updated view on our life now. I am not working at the job that was so stressful. I was lucky enough to get asked back to my old job. New owners, the business is now being run liked it was, years ago, before corporate companies took it over. Yes, my job life is so much better. Working at a job I truly love. Really enjoying what I do. It has it stresses and can be hard on my body, but I work with a lot of great people and a great owner. Plus make more money. You say my life sounds chaotic and disruptive. I would it is not. There are areas that need work, which we are working on. My lying to my wife started when I was told by my bosses, that I was safe and not to worry about my job. One week later I was let go. Let go by the same person who told me I was safe. This is where my life spiraled downward. I wouldn't leave the house much. Very depressed. Embarrassed that I was let go. No job. Felt like I lost my identity. A few months go by and I get hired at a new job. Very quickly I start learning about this new job and then start learning how this job is mental grind on a person, you could say, Everyday! Still wanting my old job back, watching and listening to people talk and talking to some of my old bosses, the news didn't look good. During this time is when I started with the affairs. I felt like I had gone to my wife too many times and nothing she said helped me. This would have been about 8 years ago, 2h3n I lost my job and started a new job. At this new job, a female that had a lot of experience was helping myself and others learn the job. I don't remember how long after I started that she would ask my advice and one other newer person's advice on matters of business. She then started telling me her life troubles, work, home,kids. It seemed I had found someone new I could tell about how I was feeling about myself and how bad I did not like this job and wanted my old job back. This was at first a great feeling. Somebody new to hear my troubles. A fresh set of ears. Skip forward and I was in this job for around 5 to 5 1/2 years. I figured around year three, my old job was never going to be an option again, for a number of reasons. I then figured I needed to make this job work for me and that is when I figured ways to make the job less stressful and then become the leader in the company of handling the highest work load. I like to say how prisoners say it. Don't let the time do you, you do the time. Then one day I was asked to come back to my old job. I am at that job today and love it just the same if not more than I did. My wife and I are still trying to work on our marriage. We both go to counseling. We did couples counseling for a couple of years. My wife is also on this site. Her troubles or sticking point i would say are she doesn't see me doing my work and she has troubles trusting me. Me doing my work, I would agree, I haven't been the best at and we have had many conversations about this. I know we don't agree on what the work should be, but I do know I could do more. Her trust issues? Totally understandable. I lied to her over and over and over. Telling her there were no other women. Truth is/was, there was 3. One I worked with and two later online. Everyday I think about the damage I did and have done. I 2anted my old job back. I wanted life to be just like it was, before I was let go. I thought I could fix it with talking to other people, my affair partners. We all know now that didn't work. Then my life was chaotic and disruptive. Now, it still is somewhat. From the problems I have personally caused. My wife and I have just recently sat down to do finances together. I am so wanting my wife to trust me again. I know it will never be like it once was,but To be better than it is now. I thank you for your advice and listening. I apologize for the multiple times I posted the same questions. I am looking forward to any advice you or others may have. I have found this to be very helpful for myself, my confidence, problem solving.

Just to add some more information about me, my wife and our situation. Everyday I am thankful my wife was able to stay in our marriage with me and continue to work on it. I'm sure everybody reading this knows of all the work, heartache tears and some smiles that go along during this period. I do understand that my affairs were me being selfish and my lies were to put my safety and my own feelings first. I do really try and live my life now with always telling the truth. When I say I try, I mean just as others have said on this site, if someone asks you4 weight for example, you may weigh 155 lbs and a person would answer 150 lbs. I do realize that all the time I was going through a very hard time in my life, being let go from my job, ,y wife was always there for me and was my biggest supporter. She always had my back. I completely let her down, my kids also and myself. I did NOT have her back. I am working to prove to her that she can count on me and trust I will always have her back. I am working towards being that safe person and her best friend. I want to be her biggest supporter and best friend. I always loved my wife and it wasn't until,counseling realized I hadn't loved myself, possibly ever.

Wolf

Look – you can start as many threads as you want and ask the same question again and again. I just think that it would be best for YOU to keep it in one thread. That allows others to keep up-to-date, and allow you to share your views on the advice offered. It creates IMHO a better interaction. But it’s totally your call – you aren’t doing anything wrong.

There are areas that need work, which we are working on.

I challenge you to change that: YOU work on your life. It’s back to my statement that you need to focus on YOU to become a better person to others. It’s good that your wife’s involved, but the heavy-lifting has to be 100% you.

Your story about losing your job rang a bell… I have once been let go from a job, and coincidentally about 2 weeks prior I had asked about my job-security. I recognize the immense hit to the ego, self-worth and all that losing a job can have on you. This was over 20 years ago, and I have been in my current job for over 15 years, but still experience an occasional irrational fear of losing my job… (typical PTSD).

I want to make a couple of suggestions on the marriage and trust issues:

You will never get the same type of trust you and your wife had.

That’s fine. In fact, that’s GOOD. Blind trust is stupid and naïve. What you want is verifiable trust.

To get verifiable trust you simply do what you say you are doing and don’t do what she thinks you might be doing.

Short story: Some years ago, the rear right break on my truck started leaking fluid. Of course, this happened on a Friday morning before a long weekend. Crawled my way to the part of town where all the garages are and started knocking on doors to find someone that could fix the truck that day.

I chanced upon a mechanic who had opened his shop a couple of months previously. He took a look at the vehicle, gave me an estimate and told me he could have it ready by 2 PM. An hour later I got a call: Since the right side was faulty he checked the left side and recommended I change that too – gave me the price for that work too and the option to say yes or no and when I said yes told me this would take an extra hour. When I went to pick up the vehicle the mechanic showed me the work he had done, and the worn parts, confirming both sides were just about equally worn out.

I have since gone several times to this mechanic, as well as recommended him to numerous people. I verify what he says and does, but with time to a lesser degree. Like – if he tells me a repair will cost 400 I sort-of believe it’s fair and I don’t return expecting a bill for 500.

We use verifiable trust all the time. Like if you go to a restaurant you rely on Health and Safety and all sorts of regulations and checks to ensure the food stored and prepared properly and you won’t get food-poisoning. You rely on the regulations and checks to ensure the pilots on your flight are qualified.

We also use this in our private lives. I trust my kids, but I was still sniffing at the cuffs of their coats and checking the coat-pocket for tobacco to ensure they weren’t smoking as teenagers (2 out of 5 were caught this way…). I trust my wife with our joint finances – as she does me – yet we both go over all our accounts and cards, and if we see something we don’t recognize we ask the other. It’s not that we don’t trust – we just want to verify. Like – if I see a charge from CSV I don’t recognize I don’t automatically assume it’s condoms and lube for a lover, but listen and accept when I’m told it’s for painkillers and band-aid. If in doubt I would check the family first-aid kit. Reasonable trust, but verification when applicable.

I think that if you discuss this with your wife – how the two of you can establish a trust-but-verify form of interaction. You do so consciously – as in her being clear what it is she needs to build trust about and you being able to verify your actions in that area.

There needs to be some moderation in this. The verification needs to be valid and enforceable and realistic. Like my wife and I are open books to each other, but my job requires I don’t grant access to my e-mail, as does her job. If she asked me I would allow her to scan my e-mail over my shoulder but there can’t be any way for her to freely search or log in without my knowledge. If she had concerns about my female co-workers we would need to find other ways to alleviate those concerns. But… If the two of you are aware of the others fears and needs and then strive (within sensible reason) to alleviate the fears… then with time they should subside.

Basically – If someone were to ask me if I trust my wife – my answer wouldn’t be "What do you think!? YES!!" but rather "She hasn’t given me reason not to trust her, so yes I do."

On the marriage…

I truly think a ground-breaking moment in marriage is when you realize you are ONLY married because YOU WANT TO BE married.

You get all these people insisting they have to remain married due to the kids or whatever, and then they spend the years until the kids leave being miserable rather than focusing on repairing and creating a good marriage. Once the kids leave they find another excuse, like I can’t afford D or lose too much or whatever.

I guess about a third of my friends and colleagues and coworkers are divorced (that I know of). Some remarried, some in their third marriage or whatever. What I do know is that they all seem to live in houses, eat regularly, have a relationship with their kids and generally live happy lives. There is no automatic correlation between divorce and financial- and emotional shipwreck.

So realize and accept three statements:

You are only married because you want this partner.

You can divorce if you want someone else or something your partner can’t provide.

Your marriage is only sustainable while you BOTH want it.

I’m not advocating divorce as a solution to all problems. There are ups and downs in any marriage. But realizing that if you don’t pull your weight, communicate, and work together then there is the risk of alienating your partner… it’s a powerful incentive to do right.

She’s still there despite your affairs. You are still there despite having wandered off… That should tell BOTH of you a lot – for example that the first statement is probably valid: You want each other.

That’s actually a good place to start.

I think that if you two take time to sit down and acknowledge that marriage is precious and delicate but that you are BOTH able to leave if you wanted to, but neither does right now, then you can both decide you want to move forwards TOGETHER.

Once you decide that, you can work out steps on how to progress. You acknowledge each other’s issues and find ways to work with them.

[This message edited by SI Staff at 11:47 AM, Monday, January 8th]

Former Betrayed Husband here.

I am just not the type of person who talks that much and know that I need to be that type of person for her.

To sisoons point that you were able to communicate to your ap's just fine, albeit via online chat, why not start there with your wife? Seriously, there are many people who do better expressing themselves through the typed word than in person and judging from your posts here, which are quite verbose, you have no problems at all expressing yourself that way. So, write her. Message her. Chat with her. Let those be the starters for deeper in person conversations.

In many posts here and on other sites the WS is encouraged to give to their betrayed spouse exponentially more of what was wrongfully and fraudulently given to your APs.

I affirm your confessions to family and your need to continue to be be proactive sir. Get the d@mn poly done (I was stunned that you laughed at her suggestion after the trauma you inflicted on her) to help lay to rest some of the rightful disbelief that your Faithful Wife has and understandably so. Get IC/PC to help you overcome communication "blockers" and to divest yourself of toxic learned behaviors, your "winning formula". Work hard to build bridges. Do it for you because you desperately need it regardless of what happens in your marriage but she will see the work and maybe, just maybe, the walls she understandably has erected may come down bit by bit over time.

After reading Biggers post, it sounds like youve received excellent prior input but lack motivation?

Two things can change your life, inspiration or desperation. Now Id rather be inspired but I must admit, desperation has played its part more times than not.

Find what works for you and get a move on.

[This message edited by DobleTraicion at 1:01 PM, Monday, January 8th]

Thank you. Lots of great information and ideas. Last night the wife and I were having a talk. I asked how she was feeling about us. She seemed more positive in her response. She said she was happy I have been doing my own work and that I would talk with her about it. I asked her if it was hard for her to show affection towards me, simple things like hold my hand, give me a quick kiss. She is still guarded and said it would ta,take, time to overcome her fears of being hurt and she is still working on building the trust again. I told her I could understand that and did not think that she could be repaired quickly, that it would take me continually doing all my work.

Just a small update. At Christmas I gave my wife a Christmas card, we have always exchanged cards at Christmas. A couple days go by, I notice the card is not open and ask her about it. She said she was unsure about opening it and didn't feel comfortable opening it. Later, I picked up the envelope with the card in it and put it away. We didn't discuss it until a few nights ago and I brought it up. I told her that it hurt my feelings that she didn't open the envelope. She explained that she didn't want a card, knowing that I had not been doing much of my own work in the time leading up to now. I have been lately working on myself and continued with IC. I told her I understood how she felt and that it made sense. Over the weekend she pretty much installed a new dishwasher in our house.i kinda played supervisor. I am recovering from a knee replacement that I had in December. I am continuing to work on myself and try to let her know I am safe for her to trust again.

[This message edited by Wolfpack1 at 5:02 AM, Tuesday, January 16th]

Wolfpack

I’m going to be rather direct:
You and your wife need to decide what it’s going to be: Reconciliation or divorce.
That decision isn’t instantaneous. Like if you decide to R it won’t just happen. Not any more than if you decide to divorce.
Neither decision is irreversible. R takes years, divorce takes time too and can be stopped until the moment the pen leaves the last page you sign on.
Deciding to R doesn’t mean you all start trusting each other and go at it like rabbits. It simply means that you are both working at reestablishing a relationship.
Deciding to D doesn’t mean you focus on hate, sleep on the couch and don’t talk. It simply means that you are both working at ending a relationship.

But… you can’t be in divorce without work, nor can you be in reconciliation without work…

And…
STOP sending each other sublime and subconscious unclear messages!
This isn’t Junior High! This is LIFE and it’s serious!

Like the card. She should have turned it back to you. She should have turned to you and said "I feel unsure about opening this card" and you two talked about it.
You shouldn’t hide the card as if it was yours. You gave it to her. You should have said "I feel unsafe with your delay in accepting my gift. What is it you are telling me, and what do you want? How do we progress to a better place (based on our decision to R or D) from here?"

It’s perfectly sensible to readdress a decision R or D on a regular basis, especially early-on. Like sit down every Sunday evening and decide: Last week we committed to reconciling. Have we made any progress in the last seven days? Have I/you been to IC, MC, read a book, been together, reached a goal…. And should we continue on this path for the next week? What should our goals be for this week?

That discussion could lead to one or both of you simply saying "I can’t do this anymore" so you change path. But the key is to keep moving, keep momentum.

Well maybe I need to clear things up on my situation so there is a better understanding and people are aware that we know this isn't Jr. High. Both of us are working on reconciliation. We both go to ic, once a month. We are having a lot more and frequent (almost daily) conversations. I am doing my work and initiating talks with my wife.

Now with the Christmas card I gave to her on Christmas and she didn't open. I said earlier in the thread a couple of days had passed and she didn't open it and I asked her if she was going to open the card. I read this thread and all the responses to my wife. She said that it wasn't a couple of days. It was later in the evening on Christmas that I noticed the card was not opened and asked her about it.

Several hours after her telling me why she didn't want to open it, I quietly removed the card from the end table and put it away. I believe I mentioned to my wife I was going to do that. There was no big display of me saying out loud that I was taking the card back. No stomping of my feet leaving the room in anger. I simply picked up the envelope containing the card and put it away. The first reason I took the card and moved it was so my wife wouldn't have to continue to see it and feel weird or bad about not opening it. The second reason was my feelings were hurt and I didn't want to continue to see it on the end table. After reading this entire thread to my wife she said she was thankful I did quietly remove the card from the end table.

We both know this is life and it is serious. We both agree the reason I was confused on the timing of when the card was removed is that I was 5 days out on a knee replacement surgery and we are positive that the pain medications I was taking clouded my memory. So, we are both working on our marriage. I am working on myself and making myself a better husband for her and one that she desrves.

[This message edited by Wolfpack1 at 4:50 AM, Wednesday, January 24th]

Just a brief check in. I have returned to work. Last week was my first seek back after another knee replacement surgery. The wife and I continue to work on our marriage. I continue to read and learn more about myself. We talk, not every night, sometimes life keeps us busy with a daughter who is a senior in high school and other things. But we still talk and have discussions about how we are both doing and what we are working on. My wife is still trying to get to a place where she is comfortable and I think us talking helps her. I do find it helpful for me to be able to read threads on this forum and even post on this forum. I think we are both finding our work and my ability to engage in meaningful talks with my wife helpful.