SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

Is it what you would do or would you expect to be done to you and why? Does it expand to other branches of life or just romantic partnership?

@itiswhatitis

I glossed over this question and didn’t answer it properly.

Yes I take that this is the way I should approach every branch of life.

If I demand trust from someone, I owe them honesty.
I think that’s the deal in any human relationship not only romantic.

Truth is when you are not being transparent with someone you are trying to take advantage of something.
Which is not completely evil per Se, if you are selling something and you are only focusing on the positive side when you pitch it, that’s natural interaction.

You are not acting upon pre established trust, you are trying to convince someone to give you what you want from them, and you are convincing that you give them what they want from you.

This is called transactional. And even here, if you are transparent and honest with your perspective buyer, you may earn their trust. Which is an immense value for anything.

If you were dishonest that trust will either never come or will be broken once they found out you lied them or withheld the truth.

You might get away with a one off (rip off if you will) but you are compromising the future with this buyer.

And I believe we do know the stated goal of our intention right from the start:

Do I want to rip off someone in a transaction or do I want to give them something that I truly believe is of value and being rewarded in kind for that?

The per might not know my intentions and be suspicious "just in case", but I do know. We know our goals.

In the past I worked those odd jobs where you were to rip off people by convincing them to buy something that was not reflecting its value and part of the job description was to seek it no matter what.

I know I have the skill set to potentially do that very well and profit from it. When I found out what the job enticed, I turned it down because it felt dirty to me.

So yeah, trust is sacred to me in this light.

I have to betray myself to break trust, and I rather do something else.

And of course this being my principle is what I expect from others as well.
Trust demands transparency and honesty and it is a one off deal breaker.

I don’t see it as extreme, I may even see it as extremely selfish if you want to see it from a different angle:
The value that you get from honesty and trust is far greater than the value you may get from cheating and taking advantage of someone’s trust in every area of life.

So choosing that will in the end benefit me the most.

BackfromtheStorm, thank you for the explanation. It's far from my own philosophy or requirements for my trusted people. I believe that the internal life of humans, similar to animals, is volatile, chaotic, quite random and gets more significance then it should. One of the things that are special about us is having a backbone and agenda that we can follow and not letting the inner noise control us. I see it as a great merit. Kind of the opposite of a wayward that thinks that their feelings are an objective reflection of the world and based of that rewrite their morals and agenda.

If my partner had, let's say, a boner for a coworker and didn't have any intention to act on it, I would expect her to refrain, realign, bring all the new sexual energy back to the fold, think about what to improve and continue to be the best. If she came to confess it, I would assume that it is serious enough for me to take actions. So perhaps the end result would be much worse then intended.

[This message edited by Itiswhatitis000 at 1:13 PM, Monday, November 9th]

@sissoon

What's so awful about accepting the proposition that a WS may, in fact, love their BS during their A(s)?

Because doing so completely hollows out what love actually is.

If we accept that a WS can love their spouse while running a clandestine affair, we also open the door to domestic abusers who swear—hand on heart—that they love the partners they beat to a pulp. Put them on a polygraph, and they’d likely pass; they genuinely feel whatever emotion they call "love." The same logic applies to abusers of children who insist they love their victims.

Think about that assertion for a moment. A incestual pedo parent can deeply feel they love their child whilst abusing them every night. Messing them up beyond belief. What does 'love' mean whilst simultaneously doing such profound harm? Surely to truly love someone is to protect them from such harm. Not inflict it.

If we define "love" purely by whatever internal feeling an abuser or betrayer experiences, then love isn't special, noble, or protective. It carries no more weight than loving a car. That's fine if its your definition. I've always felt it should have more gravitas when relating to human relationships.

No trustworthy fWS asserts their behavior was loving, and no BS asserts that a WS's experience of being loving mitigates the severity of the A. And most BSes accept that their WSes don't know how to love others because they don't love themselves enough anyway. So when so many WSes say they loved their BS during the A, how does one reject the possibility that at least some of them are honestly sharing their experience?

I don't doubt they are sharing their internal experience honestly (often anyways)—I believe their definition of love is simply broken.

This is fundamentally a definitional dispute. I cannot accept any definition of love that comfortably coexists with severe betrayal, prolonged deception, or abuse. If a WS insists they truly felt it was a blistering summer afternoon, I don't doubt their subjective experience—but when I step outside and see snow falling, I recognize that their perception doesn't match reality.

IOW, they have a feeling that's strong and deep. It's just not love. I'd venture to guess that the same internal flaws that led to them being capable of cheating are likely at play with their ability to truly love someone wholly.

@Unhinged

Definitions require logic. You can choose to accept a definition of love that coexists with abuse, but doing so strips the word of all meaning.

What does "love" mean if it permits someone to habitually beat their spouse after work? What does "love" mean when someone returns from an alibi trip still carrying another person's DNA, smiles at their spouse, and crawls into bed with them? Whatever you want to label that internal feeling, you can keep it—I just don't accept it's love.

As for the supposed irony: I generally avoid engaging with you because past discussions routinely derail into personal accusations of arrogance or offense. I always think Helen Lovejoy of the Simpsons when reading your response. We clearly lack the common ground needed to have a productive debate on this. Often I think on the points you raise, just don't bother to debunk or respond to them.

[This message edited by DRSOOLERS at 1:12 PM, Monday, November 9th]

BackFromTheStorm,

You have laid out your position very clearly and I appreciate you taking the time to do so. However, I believe your premise that unshared mental thought equals to an untruth or lie by omission. I also find the "slipper Lope" concept unconvincing as well. However, if this standard brings both you and your partner comfort and safety, then I fully support your living by this standard. I applauded the discipline.

Asterisk

Soolers, I believe your reasoning is very black and white. You either love someone completely and perfectly or you hate them. You leave no room for nuance.

Physical abuse and infidelity are not the same thing. Conflating the two is fallacious.

Physical abuse is about dominance and enforcing one's will upon another. It is systematic cruelty designed to destroy the other person. It is done openly, directly and with clear intent. While a physical abuser may claim to love their victim, I agree that the value it holds for them is fundamentally flawed.

Infidelity is self-destructive. We, the betrayed, are collateral damage. With some exceptions, I do not believe people who cheat do so with the singular intent to inflict pain on their spouse or partner. They do all they can to keep their infidelity secret.

I do believe that someone can love their spouse or partner and still take a stroll down Infidelity Lane. Infidelity has nothing to do with the betrayed and everything to do with the wayward.

I understand your hatred for waywards. I don't share that hatred. I understand your judgemental disposition, your deep seated need to exact revenge, even if vicariously. That's not me.

Nietzsche wrote about people's need to cloak revenge as high moral principles. I see this in the things you write. Since you cannot exact revenge upon your father or exgf, you cloak yourself in superior morality. I've known a few people like this throughout my life and more often than not their belief in their own moral superiority is a mask for their own low self-worth or insecurity.