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This past week while my wife and I were having a mild run of the mill argument she said a phrase which triggered me. It was one she used a lot when she was trying to gaslight me and convince everyone around us I was crazy and paranoid her "friendship" was an affair. Anyways, when she said it a switch flipped and I lost my shit. I felt physically and emotionally like I did after finding out they were communicating again. Classic PTSD response. I pulled it back together but it took me about 6 hours to really come down from it.

Thing is, my teen saw me burst into a rage. Not something I want. The next day I explained to my wife the response. She seemed to understand, but then later made a critical comment about me causing a scene the day before.

My fist thought was "if the kids knew what you put me through they wouldn’t see me as the jerk and you as the victim". At least they would have context for my outburst. But, you can’t really tell kids their mom was a cheating liar. Then I thought to myself, I didn’t decide for her to have an affair. I wasn’t in on it, but I get to keep it a secret. And keep it a secret where it acts against me. It almost makes me feel like I’m in on it, helping her and him hide their affair. Has anyone else thought that before? I’m sure someone has. Obviously I’m not going to tell the kids. There’s only downside for them, and I don’t need the upside to me. Just wanted to share and see what others have felt.

[This message edited by Legatus at 3:50 AM, Tuesday, November 11th]

A few months after my exww and I separated, she told our 10yo son what she'd done. I was surprised to hear that she'd confessed it and relieved at the same time.

My son and I have talked about it a few times. I've never tried to demonize her to him. I want him to have a good relationship with her. I have, however, tried to explain to him how painful infidelity can be in the hopes that he will never do anything like it and never accept it in his life.

You can choose to hide it - or you can choose to teach them.

Legatus,

Boy, do I know what you are going through. I’m sure I am not alone, that there are plenty of us who struggled deeply with the secrecy of the affair making us, the betrayed appear to be the cause of the family disruption. I did write about this a week or so ago titled "I became a liar". You are in a terrible position, and I fall on the side of there is no right or wrong decision as to telling the kids. I chose not to and have never regrated that decision.

In my thinking, and you may get sincere, different points of view on this, but it to would be best coming from your wife than from you. It makes it easier for it to be a teachable moment. If you decide to tell them, I’d caution you to closely inspect your motives. Make sure your disclosure isn’t out of revenge (Unless that is what you want.) for that would be a different type of a teaching moment.

Astrisk

My kids know in an age appropriate way that their mother lied to me in a way that nearly ended in divorce.

I'm sure they have their opinions on that, but if I can forgive her and she can earn my trust back, that should be good enough for them too.

Hi Legatus

I read your original thread and always wondered what swayed you to reconcilation. I hope you are doing well generally since then and have been happy with your choice.

I'm not well placed to comment on children, I don't have my own and it's still to be decided if that will change anytime soon. I will say I was fully aware of my Father's cheating from the age of 10. I personally think if anything it did strengthen my morals.

That being said the older I got, the more I resented my father and ultimately decided to cut him out my life. I don't think he was ever Dad material. By all accounts was very generous money wise, so I guess that helped me having my main male role model growing up Basil Faulty.

I just think on the whole, you should be as honest with your kids as possible. They'll know something is and has been up. Kids always know.

How old are your kids? I think you are too lightly setting aside the idea that they should know. They clearly know something is off in the house. They likely have a mixture of blaming themselves (as kids do) and you (as you are the one acting strangely). I see no benefits to that to anyone other than your WW.

Coincidentally, I just had a talk with my kid's therapist about a very similar situation - I raised my voice more than usual last weekend, and our teen got upset about it. We haven't told her about the affair, but she knows we're getting divorced.

Depending on the age, maturity, and emotional resilience of your kids, it's best to give them enough information to provide some context. At the least, you should acknowledge to them that you got angry with your wife, and it's because of something else that happened between you two in the past, but you're trying to work things out with her. So: truth, but not necessarily the whole truth. You can also tell them that your wife is trying to make amends for what happened.

The therapist pointed out that we do no favors to our children by shielding them from conflict. What they need to see is how we handle family conflict in a way that allows us to continue having a relationship with the other person. People get angry and sad. There are boundaries to those behaviors, and apologies are due when lines are crossed, but expressing those feelings can also be healthy and justified.

Legatus

You have been teaching your kids what a crap marriage is for more than 4 years -

Read your post started in 2021 and the below posts still ring true and pertinent:

The1stWife ( Guide #58832)posted at 7:53 PM on Saturday, July 24th, 2021

I’m sorry but you should demand your $ back from her counselor. He or she has to be an idiot to believe the "just friends" routine.

It’s people like that who give therapists a bad reputation!

Most people with half a brain would see through that behavior.

Maybe you should tell your wife she can hero her friend and her counselor but you have decided to leave the three ring circus of a marriage.

The1stWife ( Guide #58832)posted at 5:26 PM on Monday, July 26th, 2021

My theory is they were "smart" enough to figure out how to cheat —- they can be smart enough on their own to figure out how to R.

If they actually really want to R.

Justsomeguy ( member #65583)posted at 3:48 PM on Monday, July 26th, 2021

One question that I asked myself just before choosing to pull the plug, was given what i know about my STBXWW's character and history, would i date her if she was a stranger? I mean, if I met her, and after a couple of dates, I knew about her cheating, lying, attempts to humiliate her spouse, lack of basic empathy, yadda, yadda, yadda. You get the point.

There are rare waywards on this site which are truly remorseful and self aware, and these people give us hope that real change can happen, but the reality is that this type of work is long and hard, and not realistic for many people. Just look at the weight loss industry as an example. Losing weight requires a tectonic shift in behaviour, not just a 10 week program. Sure, people can white knuckle it for a bit, but what is the actual success rate long term?

My STBXWW is currently stalling the D process because she is spinning into depression. How do I know this? Because she constantly gas the need to tell me, confusing me with someone who gives a shit. She wants my pity because she had always gotten it before.

Last month, my daughter (18yrs) asked if her mother and I would ever be friends and do family stuff together again. I had to explain that I only allow high quality people in my life now and her mother just didnt measures up. Maybe if she did the work to change, one day it might be different, but I have solid boundaries now in order to heal. She understood, mostly because she has had some experiences with toxic and broken people, who have taken a real toll on her.

In the end, most people cannot change. They might shift things around a bit or alter how their character manifests, but the core remains. Even after his Damascus moment, Paul wrote about the struggle between his new self and core behaviours. It's a fundamental battle we all wage. Hell, I'm a fixer and even though I know that, I cannot change it. I just build in strategies to help me navigate it.

Your WW is who she is. Boil down the reasons you are attached to her and weigh them. Kids, time, feelings you once had, and then compare that to which she has demonstrated herself to be. It can be a chilling thing.

Justsomeguy ( member #65583)posted at 5:39 PM on Friday, July 30th, 2021

Sorry OP, but unless your WW has her Danascus moment, you are headed to D, unless you are willing to rugsweep. From your posts, it seems your WW is missing some key character stuff that makes a well rounded adult, like empathy, personal responsibility, compassion...etc. It's funny just how common it is for waywards to be missing these key pieces.

Again, I fall in the cheating-is-always-a-dealbreaker camp, and if there is to be a new relationship again, it is up to the cheater to move heavan and earth to rebuild it. Anything else is substandard. Hell, if you removed all of the entanglements, would you even bother to date someone who put so little into a relationship? Could you imagine the dating profile? Known cheater, liar, who lacks empathy, compassion and basic human decency, but is great at making cards...yup, that's the gal I want!

Step back, and try to consider what type of life you want. What dou you want if to look like in ten or twenty years? And can you reasonable see your WW fitting into that without you compromising? Don't project a version of her that you hope might happen, but the real her, the one you have white knuckled it with. If not, then file now, not to save your M, but to save yourself. It may be that she pulls her head out of her ass and grows, but you win either way. Either way, you get out of infidelity.

Butforthegrace ( member #63264)posted at 3:01 AM on Tuesday, August 3rd, 2021

not in a rush to try to shock her into changing because I’ve filed for divorce. A lot of the advice I’ve received on this forum has been to force her hand in some way with the end goal being her snapping out of the fantasy and changing.

I hope nobody on SI has given you this sort of advice. It's possibly the worst advice that could be given. The mantra here is "you cannot control her, and you cannot control the outcome, you can only control you." Anybody suggesting otherwise is selling you snake oil. D is not a gambit to catalyze her to do something. You file D because you want to be divorced.

Concerning the passive statement, I don’t at all feel like I’ve been passive.

Trust me, you have been and are still being passive. You're living in infidelity, and you are taking no affirmative steps to get out of infidelity. My friend, you are almost a trope for passive. The definition of passive.

Many others posted to your thread and many, like you, have a much greater tolerance for unpleasantness (bordering on sadistic) that I.

When your kids move out, ask them what they think of your marital relationship.

Get "No More Mr. Nice Guy" book and read it.

Look up Spaceghost0007 thread here for best way to "get out of infidelity"

Amazing you appear to like to suffer - for five years or more?

This past week while my wife and I were having a mild run of the mill argument she said a phrase which triggered me. It was one she used a lot when she was trying to gaslight me and convince everyone around us I was crazy and paranoid her "friendship" was an affair. Anyways, when she said it a switch flipped and I lost my shit. I felt physically and emotionally like I did after finding out they were communicating again. Classic PTSD response. I pulled it back together but it took me about 6 hours to really come down from it.

I completely relate to this. I hate having to keep this from my kids. I’m close with them and yet there is now a huge wall between us because they can never know this crucial part of who I am. Yet I don’t want to tell them because my knowledge of my dad’s affair really messed me up in adolescence and young adulthood. I don’t want them going through that. They certainly know that we really really fought about some things and little statements here or there may have revealed more than I realize. It is a mess. My husband would like to tell them all the truth so I can’t fully blame him for the keeping the lie part. Although of course if he didnt do what he did there wouldn’t be a lie to keep.

I’m sorry you are going through this. It is hard. I agree with the idea that there is likely not a right answer. Just two paths to choose from, each of which is difficult in its own way.

Children know so much more and are a lot more sensitive to what is going on than we think they do. No matter how much you and your wife try to hide it, the two of you are not as good as actors as you might think you are. If they are over 6 or 7 years old, they will pick up on "vibes" between you and your wife. They are not oblivious to what is going on.

The reason is that they are finding people to model their lives after as they grow older. When they are very little they will imitate you and your wife as much as possible.Just being human. That is how they learn. If it is still in print you should read "Mirroring People".

The older I get the more I think about my childhood memories. These memories have become really intense these past couple of years. I remember watching my father very closely and trying to imitate him. I still remember one day deciding which of his traits I wanted in my life and which ones I did not. I remember I was 12 when I made my decision. So, you should know your children are watching you extrememly closely even though they seem to be only seeing their phones. They have to observe you and your actions because at their young age their survival depends on it. It is hard-wired in their brains.

It is my personal opinion that children, when old enough, should be told about the situation in an age appropriate manner. If they are really young they might be told something along the lines of "Your mother and I are having some difficulties in our marriage, but we are trying to fix them". If they are teenagers it might be something like "Your mother did something and it HURT me deeply. I am working to forgive her (or something similar)".

My opinion is that we do not give our children credit for their sensitivities.

Depending on the ages of your kids, maybe your wife should tell them what she did. It's not fair for her to sit by and let you look like the bad guy. It will be difficult for the kids. If they see both of you truly trying to reconcile, if that's what you want, it will go a long way in helping them process it.

My oldest at home knows what my H did. He was old enough at the time of DDay to remember that something was going on. He was probably around 16 when we talked about it. He couldn't understand why I was so angry. It seemed appropriate to tell him. He's 21 now and seems OK with it. My younger kids, 18 and 14 now, don't know. My oldest, who is 34 now, knows.

My mom cheated on my dad. They divroced when I was 4. I was 14 or 15 when I found out. It was bad for me, but it was a different situation. My mom never took responsibility for what she did. She didn't talk about it. I hated her.

The day I discovered what my wife was doing I pulled my older two kids out to the garage, they were 19 and 17. I left my 12-year-old out of the conversation. I said you boys are smart and intuitive and you are going to realize that something is not right. Mom and I are not in a good place right now but it has nothing to do with the two of you. They said okay

The next afternoon when my wife walked in from work I said I need time to think and I cannot do that bumping into you and I will not spend all weekend staring at the ground. There's a suitcase upstairs, I cannot make you leave, but I need you to leave so I can think so please leave, and she did

On her way out she said something to the older two, I did not hear what she said, but it was something to the effect of "This is all my fault" so I'm sure the kids made some assumptions

Several months into reconciliation I suggested we explain to them what happened and how we are handling it but my wife was against the idea, obviously, because it would make her feel uncomfortable. I didn't want the kids drawing conclusions that were untrue and as usual that was me trying to protect her but I'm not so inclined to be that considerate these days

Tell the kids mom did something that people in committed relationships do not do and you are trying to work through it and it's been very hard on you and if/when you seem upset or angry or sad it's not because of them. You shouldn't carry that burden. Your wife should.

ETA: tell your wife you're going to have this conversation with the kids and you want her there by your side to show her support. She made the decision to do what she did so she gets to suffer through the consequences

[This message edited by WB1340 at 4:55 PM, Wednesday, November 12th]

I can see the argument for keeping it a secret if you're able to model behaviors that you want your child to emulate. If they're seeing behaviors you don't want them to copy someday (raging at your spouse/allowing them to rage at you for no apparent reason), then I'll argue that it's time to give them some context so they understand that this is a reaction to exceptional stress.

For obvious reasons, my BH struggled mentally and emotionally in the aftermath of discovery of my A. He started to go to IC, which was out of character for him. My middle kid, a teen at the time, noticed that Dad was going out more and asked what was up. My BH answered that he was struggling with some things emotionally and needed professional support. This was something he wanted to model: if you need help, it's appropriate to ask for it, and you don't owe anyone an explanation for the personal circumstances that triggered the need. Note that I was willing to tell our kids the reason, but my BH preferred to keep it private.

Several years later, our son was himself a victim of infidelity. I felt strongly that disclosing our experience could help him navigate his shock, pain, anger, and grief. My BH agreed, and our son now knows about the A. He's glad that we shared once there was a reason for him to know, and he understands why we didn't before. He confirmed that he'd had no idea at the time, only that his father had been struggling with personal issues. Now that he's been through his own rage at his ex, he can understand why my BH might have screamed at me, but he would have found it extremely disturbing if he'd seen it without that context.

Please understand that I'm not judging you. You're having a human reaction to a terrible strain that was forced upon you. I'm just saying that it's also natural for a kid to grapple with seeing Dad rage at Mom and to try to figure out what to make of it. If it's a one-off, they may invent their own reasons why it happened. If it becomes a pattern, then they have to decide whether to emulate or reject the behavior of crucial role models.

This is a consequential moment in your parental relationship. If the context is never revealed, the consequences could be permanent. In my opinion, that changes the calculation of whether it's more damaging to them to know the truth of the affair.

[This message edited by BraveSirRobin at 11:16 AM, Saturday, November 15th]

My dad was a serial cheater. Then my mother got fed up and had an exit affair with the bass player from my dad's band. Who she ended up marrying, only for him to die in a motorcycle accident a couple of years later. That's a whole other story, tho...

I was 11 and 12 when all of that went down. I was told and/or saw what happened. It strengthened my stance on infidelity and I swore I'd never let something like that happen in any of my relationships. I have indeed been faithful for 28 years, and I've had opportunities. Knowing what happened with my parents didn't ruin me or leave me scarred for life.

Kids are pretty resilient, and I think they understand more than we think they do sometimes. If you're still experiencing triggers and having moments in front of your kids I think the best thing to do is at least give them bits of the truth. Let them know that mom fucked up, you were hurt, but you're working through it. You don't have to give all the details or even say what it was that she did, but if she has your back she'll agree with you in front of your kids. "Yes, I made some mistakes and hurt your dad pretty deeply, but I'm very sorry and we're working it out" or something along those lines. If they want details just say "that's between your mother and I" and leave it at that. But at least they'll know there's a legitimate reason behind your behavior instead of growing up thinking you're just an asshole. I don't think you want that, and you're even saying it kinda tears you up keeping this big secret.

I don’t see a need to assume your marriage or reconciliation journey is in the same place now as it might have been four years ago. I do however encourage you to constantly ask yourself if you two are progressing as a couple, or if you are simply learning to live with a big pink elephant taking a regular dump in your marital life.

If you aren’t making progress... what’s hindering it? If it’s you – change, if it’s her – change.

Regarding your child. The age isn’t clear. A 13 year old is a teenager, and so is a 19 year old. Yet both have different maturity.
I think it’s OK for kids to know their parents argue. I think it’s fine if your kids know that mom did something that hurt dad deeply, and that their parents are working on healing. No need for detail, but a) it shows kids that relationships can be hard and that people work on things and/or b) maybe softens the blow if this leads to the end of the marriage.