SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

The parallel you made to your childhood abuse is understandable and powerful, it risks dismissing all critical feedback as abusive projection. In the context of infidelity, many generalized comments (e.g., about the damage to the betrayed spouse, the necessity of deep introspection, or the selfish nature of the act) are not born of mere "ignorance and hurt," but of shared experience and a realistic assessment of the harm caused. Ironically, you are making a generalization here By framing all external criticism as simply "pissing into the ashes," in doing so you maybe insulating yourself from valid, albeit painful, accountability that is often necessary for true reconciliation. The difference between "tough love" (as abuse) and "necessary hard truths" (for healing) is in the intent and delivery, not the content, and you seem to categorize all painful content as the former.

'Nothing More Wrong with Me": Whilst this assertion, while helpful for combating self-loathing, may overcorrect by minimizing the significance of the infidelity. The act of infidelity did cause catastrophic, singular damage to the marriage. Framing it as merely "struggling with a lot of shit and made some bad choices" might be seen as downplaying the profound ethical failure and relational injury, making it harder for the BS to trust that the WS grasps the gravity of the betrayal

Generalizations, while sometimes viewed negatively for their bluntness, hold significant pragmatic value—they are often more useful than they are harmful, especially in contexts demanding a quick decision or an initial assessment. The core logic is simple: they act as efficient cognitive shortcuts that draw on observed patterns.

A generalization based on high-probability outcomes provides a crucial advantage: efficiency in risk assessment.

Let's use your infidelity example. While a precise statistic like 99% is unrealistic, if historical data or sociological studies suggest that a high percentage of individuals who have cheated once will cheat again, then the generalization "they'll only do it again" becomes a highly effective piece of advice for the betrayed spouse.

A person facing a crisis needs to make a decision—stay or go. If the chance of recurrence is 70%, 80%, or even 90%, advising them to "get out while the getting's good" is a strategy of risk mitigation. It prioritizes protecting the individual from a probable future harm, despite the small chance they might be the exception.

While seeking the exception might offer a "warm fuzzy feeling," insisting on a deep, individualized analysis in a high-stakes scenario can lead to paralysis by analysis or, worse, prolonged exposure to predictable emotional damage. This is one of the most common things I see on this forum. A generalization provides a necessary, practical guidepost.

The resistance to generalizations often stems from a deep-seated, but often misplaced, belief in absolute personal uniqueness. People dislike being categorized because it feels like a denial of their individuality. However, from a psychological and sociological perspective, human behavior is remarkably patterned.

In high-stress, emotional situations like infidelity, the number of rational, predictable responses is quite limited. The intense emotional pressure channels behavior into recognizable streams.

There aren't an infinite number of "cheater" types. There are patterns—the habitual narcissist, the emotionally avoidant, the mid-life crisis responder, the opportunistic hedonist, etc. Each type has a relatively predictable set of motivations, excuses, and post-discovery actions.

Similarly, the betrayed spouse follows common, though painful, trajectories: the immediate trauma reactor, the rationalizing fixer, the depressed avoider, the angry confrontationalist, and so on.

People may believe their combination of preferences is unique, but the building blocks are widely shared. If you know a few key demographic, socioeconomic, and personality data points, you can often predict major life choices and aesthetic preferences with surprising accuracy, because human societies and cultural influences create clusters of common traits.

Trust me, if you feel open enough to share your story, dollars to doughnuts I can link you half a dozen remarkably similar cases with remarkably similar wayward. As an academic exercise, there is a really famous book by an authors name we are prohibited from mentioning. I urge you to read this book. In reading the book, it's stunning how accurately she captures cheaters. How they act. How the respond. Don't believe me? Read the thousands of comments and reviews echoing this. 'My husband acted entirely the same' so on and so forth.

Evidence for these patterns can be noted here in the JFO forum, how often we see response such as: "Jeez, I could have wrote this myself." This isn't a coincidence; it's a testament to the universal human scripts that play out when core relationships are shattered. The emotions, the excuses, the defensive mechanisms, and the stages of grief follow an almost identical roadmap across countless individuals.

Generalizations are not meant to be the final word; they are simply the highly probable starting point. They tell you where to focus your attention and which pitfalls to avoid first.

In complex human interactions, accepting that one's story is frighteningly similar to others is not a diminution of one's pain, but rather an empowering realization. It means that others have been through this, their patterns can be studied, and therefore, a roadmap to recovery already exists. Generalizations simply make that roadmap immediately accessible.

[This message edited by DRSOOLERS at 12:05 PM, Thursday, October 23rd]

Hi there Ghostie, it used to bother me so much when people would talk about abuse they had suffered and it got set aside with an implicit (and I have even seen it explicit, though not in years thank God) that sucks but it's not a fuckin excuse, wayward. Along with a little dose of well I was abused too and didn't fuckin cheat on anyone. So let me start by saying how sorry I am that happened to you, and I am glad you are getting help and growing stronger.

While you are hurt and healing it is a good idea to be very careful about people you listen to. Brené Brown talks about vulnerability but OMG do not be vulnerable to people who don't love you and want the best for you or people who are themselves not healed! I remember reading about vulnerability and posting some really difficult things on this forum and getting shamed (and not even by BS, it was from WS who I assume were self hating or perhaps just happy that someone was worse than they were. Again, it's been half a decade and thankfully I don't see that on here any more).

I am a platinum member so I have access to some features that you may not have, but check on the "my profile" tab to see if you are able to block members whose feedback you find unhelpful:

Follow or Forget
Follow up to 10 friends and 25 topics in your profile. Forget a user and it will hide all of their posts outside of the Fun & Games forum and prevent them from sending you private messages.

Even if you think that putting a brave face on is good, it's exhausting to wade through unhelpful comments and you need your strength for other things. Perhaps later you will be in a position to understand that they are often coming from the unhealed places in other people. But you need to be more whole before you can do that.

Thanks so much, Pippin

Ghostie, post #18

Shifting from a place of self loathing and trying to figure out why the hell I'm so broken and a wholly "bad person," to "There's actually nothing more wrong with me than anyone else, and I am a generally good person who's just struggling with a lot of shit and made some bad choices in the past. I don't need to be torturing myself with thoughts of my infidelity constantly" has been very, very helpful. I am in need, and the best way to help my husband rn is to meet my own needs... It's okay if you disagree. ;)

I think the focus needs to be a lot less on where you stand on the good/bad scale--and certainly should be a lot less on ('there is nothing more wrong with me than anyone else'), and more about figuring out your 'Whys'. We are all sinners, none of us are perfect, yes that is very true indeed. There is a subtle but important distinction between wallowing in shame vs understanding the gravity of your decisions and trying to figure out how you got there.

What about instead 'I did something horrible that hurt my BH very deeply, but I am getting to the bottom of it so that I do not live like this ever again'. Take where you stand in the good/bad continuum, out of it.

Pippin, post #22:

Hi there Ghostie, it used to bother me so much when people would talk about abuse they had suffered and it got set aside with an implicit (and I have even seen it explicit, though not in years thank God) that sucks but it's not a fuckin excuse, wayward. Along with a little dose of well I was abused too and didn't fuckin cheat on anyone. So let me start by saying how sorry I am that happened to you, and I am glad you are getting help and growing stronger.

Has anyone really used 'it's not a fuckin excuse' i.e., a curse-word like 'fuckin' added in to really throw the point down extra-hard on the WS...or is what is in this above quoted paragraph a bit of an exaggeration?

The problem with the sentiment expressed here (what I quoted) is that many WS have indeed seemingly tried to pass off the abuse that they have suffered as justification for their affair.

This forum isn't meant to be Chicken Soup For The Soul for Waywards. (I don't think this is really a place to open up about serious FOO as people here aren't therapists.) It is more about *accountability* for the affair. If the posts on here do seem harsh, it is usually because the WS is *STILL* inflicting more harm on the BS (whom many of us have more compassion for as they are the ones who are being betrayed) and the goal is to get the WS to WAKE UP faster so they can STOP causing so much pain and confusion w their actions.

[This message edited by WontBeFooledAgai at 1:06 AM, Thursday, October 30th]

I'll use another analogy.

If someone, Heaven forbid, causes an automobile accident--where they are clearly at fault that is, should that person be focusing on how they are really a good person and a good driver? No, I'd say instead that their focus should be on owning up and then doing what they can to help fix the extensive damage they caused. Meanwhile, they should own up as to their faults as a driver e.g., prone to road-rage, distracted driving, ect.

[This message edited by WontBeFooledAgai at 10:53 PM, Wednesday, October 29th]

Although every infidelity likely has some unique issues, I do not think you can discount historical trauma and FOO issues. I would never use mine as an excuse as plenty of people with similar trauma either worked on their issues and healed properly or did not make the same choices I did. That said, I absolutely believe that my FOO and trauma significantly impacted me carrying significant shame and baggage into my marriage and that created an unhealthy dynamic (unbeknownst to my wife) that resulted in a shaky foundation that crumbled much easier when issues arose.

As part of me preparing to disclose, I worked in IC to understand how I could have made the choices I did. When I disclosed I also disclosed my teenage sexual trauma. My wife was surprised, but will say it helped her understand my affair as it would have looked like it came out of nowhere otherwise. It helped her understand that it had nothing to do with her or our marriage and was entirely the result of my selfish choices, but she understands better how I could have made those choices.

I get that some people may use this an excuse, but firmly believe that most Wayward's are fundamental damaged as making that choice is not something a healthy and whole person will typically do. Totally get if some people disagree.

I am not really sure how far into your journey that you are, but generally I think that someone committed to progress may settle into different postures while they work through the stages to evolve. It’s not only necessary, but inevitable.

I can tell you a little about my experience but I don’t think I can tell you what will work best for you because like most people I probably would have gone about various things differently had I known different things or had been subject to different environments or experiences.

For me the bristle means it’s triggering. Triggers are no longer negative to me- they are an internal guide that says "this bothers me for a reason".

On the surface, it might seem like of course this bothers me because I didn’t live my proclaimed values. I made promises when I got married that I didn’t live up to. And while now, 8 years later I can see why and how that happened, and I can even have compassion for my circumstances that led into these terrible decisions, I will always hate the choice I made to cheat.

However, I am no longer paralyzed by the shame of it. I accept that I did it. But what takes away most of the triggers surrounding it is I feel like I have a greater attachment and understanding my values, I have learned to love and respect myself and ask for what I need, and I have new coping for when life is hard. Instead of seeking chaos I know to lean into other more positive things.

And so I think I am saying that I trust myself more to handle whatever comes up. Whereas I think here I would become overwhelmed by reading what people are writing (which back then was far more harsh than it is today) because I still had growth to do.

And, the biggie is shame is not an emotion. It’s useless. Guilt or remorse are definitely more beneficial for our internal guidance. When it comes to shame, likely it’s something the person always had and accumulated proof throughout their life that they are bad. Shame for me was the hardest thing to overcome. It started as a girl and it built into acting out. Which brought more shame and there becomes a cycle to all of it. I never felt good enough and felt less than more and more all the time. I would bend to fit versions of me I thought others would love or approve of.

And so as an adult not realizing that the place I was operating from was making me avoidant, keeping me from being vulnerable, people pleasing and looking for and latching into anything that might make it go away, especially external validation that wasn’t a simple decision to just not have all that exist.

Unwinding all of that came by really spending a lot of time learning who I am, what I want, living my values, giving myself grace, changing my self talk, keeping agreements, and so forth. It was something that I dissolved by learning to respect myself and knowing that my relationship with myself guides everything else in my life including my relationships.

It is good to give yourself permission not to beat yourself up if you can also be curious. What about this bothers me? Do I think it’s true? Because I think others words do not hold power unless part of us agrees with them- and that often lies deeper than the decision to let go of it. Shame lies deeply in many of our operating systems.

However- not all ws are paralyzed with shame the way that I was. If this is hindering you, yes I think you need to spend time thinking about your relationship to it prior to cheating, I think often people find it was a major contributor to being able to cheat to begin with.

It is the goal to get to where you have compassion for yourself, and that part does start to happen after the decision that’s the route you need to go. Just don’t be surprised if that decision is not the end point, because then it’s a struggle between our heart and mind. Instead use it as a way of guiding yourself to it. In other words, it’s a decision you have to make over and over and daily.

And for what it’s worth the scathing words I saw in here that sometimes ate me alive and made me argue in my head, helped me to clarify my values. It also helped me know the deeper pain my husband was not good at expressing and that I didn’t want to face. Because of that I could understand his triggers more deeply and often even anticipate them and help avoid contributing to them.

It’s hard to read here as a new ws, but it’s don’t think it’s really the site- it’s all the unexpected turbulence that we don’t see coming when we do the cheating to start with.

[This message edited by hikingout at 7:23 PM, Thursday, October 30th]

I think the focus needs to be a lot less on where you stand on the good/bad scale--and certainly should be a lot less on ('there is nothing more wrong with me than anyone else'), and more about figuring out your 'Whys'.

I’m a few (VERY intense) months in, and I’m fairly confident I figured out the whys— and not just the surface factors. Because I didn’t go looking for an affair, and I wasn’t putting out this carefully curated version of me in order to attract anybody, I felt like my AP saw me exactly as I was, and accepted me. He saw me, sweating and swearing and absolutely struggling in a vast hellscape, and still found me attractive. He thought I was interesting enough to seek out and talk to for hours and hours every day, when it seemed like no one wanted to talk to me at home. And when I told him all about my crazy fantasies of running away to the wilderness to commune with nature and the animals and live off the land, he wasn’t scared away… He participated in the fantasies too. He saw that I was capable of breaking rules and telling lies and doing something as bad as committing infidelity, and still liked me like that.

I felt good enough for him exactly as I was. That feeling is what I’ve been chasing from men all my life. But what I’ve come to realize is that it needed to come from me all along; that it’s self-acceptance and self-love that I need… And I think that a lot of WS are needing that too, and that’s why many of them can’t resist the validation that their AP gives them.

And so when people in these spaces go spouting stuff about how "good people" could "never" commit infidelity and "bad people" can and do, and other sentiments that amount to this false, unhelpful dichotomy… It all just amounts to greater shame and stunts the growth of WS that feel this way. And like I said, if these communities are truly about healing from and preventing future infidelities, this kind of speech simply hinders that. Hurt people hurting people and losing sight of the end goal, that’s all it is.

The other thing is, they’re saying they "could never" because they’re so principled. They "could never" betray not only their loved ones, but neither could they betray themselves, and their values… It’s all just a defense. A coping mechanism to help them try to protect their sense of self. Because the truth is, if you closely observe any human being for long enough, you’ll see them act in discordance with their purported principles and values eventually. And how could we not, when morality can be so complicated sometimes? Well, we value honestly, but what’s a little white lie if it spares your loved one some hard feelings? We value fairness and equality, but what’s bending the rules just this once for a particularly helpful member of the group? We value authenticity, but then someone unmasks themselves and stands, naked and vulnerable, in front of us, and we are made uncomfortable, and then of course it’s only fair that we ask them to conform, you know, for the good of society….

Other people can’t look in the mirror and see that their values are more flexible than they would like them to be without having an identity crisis. We’ve been conditioned to see behavior that doesn’t conform to these perceived universal mores as a threat— they’re unpredictable! They’re not entirely pro-social! Cue the alarm bells! And to consider ourselves perpetrators of such behaviors is equally alarming. Very uncomfortable… So people just… don’t. "That could never be me!" Oh, but I assure you, it could.

I could. And I did. And I can take an honest look at myself— with a microscope rather than a mirror, even— and say that I am a chameleon. I have had to let my values be flexible for so much of my life just to survive. They shift and change to accommodate what it is I need pretty often, actually. And I am OKAY WITH THAT. I don’t think it’s a bad thing. My identity isn’t that I am unprincipled; it’s that I am a survivor. I am adaptable. I’m a realist. I am able to see both sides of the coin in different situations and think deeply and logically about them (which, ironically, often translates to having a lot of empathy and understanding for others.) I can see both the best and the worst in people, and still love them anyway.

I am learning to love these things about me. This is what’s going to prevent me from cheating again. Not chasing someone else’s idea of what makes me a "good person" and trying to adopt others’ values.

Has anyone really used 'it's not a fuckin excuse' i.e., a curse-word like 'fuckin' added in to really throw the point down extra-hard on the WS...or is what is in this above quoted paragraph a bit of an exaggeration?

I have definitely seen people use curse words like that. No, it’s not an exaggeration. And no, that kind of language is not reserved just for waywards who are still actively hurting their spouses or actually seeking to justify their A. I would invite those of you who rationalize your words in this manner to consider:

A) Are they actually justifying, or are they just expressing what they experienced and felt at the time of their infidelity? Are you hearing what they’re actually saying, or are you reading to respond? Can you encourage them to go beyond the surface-level whys without being dismissive of those experiences/feelings or accusing them of justifying their actions?

B) Are you responding to them with this "tough love" because you actually believe it is going to help them and their BS, or are you responding from your own place of hurt with the secret pleasure of putting them "in their place?" Does it feel cathartic to respond this way because you are genuinely setting them on the path to healing, or because you feel like you are exacting justice?

[This message edited by Ghostie at 4:15 AM, Monday, November 3rd]

This is such an interesting post and I've taken a lot time to respond to this, so I hope my response is useful in some way to you:

Your central belief that principles are inherently weak or just a personal defense mechanism—that no one is truly capable of maintaining their moral integrity—is fundamentally flawed.

The idea that prolonged observation will eventually show everyone violating their values is historically inaccurate. We have an unbelievable wealth of examples of people who endured unbelievable levels of torture and death simply to maintain their core beliefs.

Consider the Scottish Covenanters who refused to acknowledge the English king, or countless religious martyrs.

If people are willing to endure such pain rather than concede a point of conscience, it is perfectly reasonable to assume that many average people are absolutely capable of holding onto the principle of not stabbing their partner in the back.

This sweeping claim that everyone's values are flexible appears to be your own coping mechanism to justify your infidelity. You want to believe that because you were capable of such a profound moral failing, everyone else is too. You must accept that while many people are morally flawed, many others are not capable of this specific betrayal.

A simple question, in your world view, why is it that some people cheat and others don't? If everyone is capable of such failings why doesn't everyone do it? Do you think its merely lack of opportunity? That other people don't have difficult times in their relationships or lives? I think this is something you need to deeply consider.

You equate minor moral failings, such as telling a white lie to spare a partner's feelings, with the act of infidelity. This creates a false equivalency and ignores the crucial concept of a line in the sand. I have lied to spare my partners feelings before. I don't think that's a good thing to do on the whole but I don't have a hard line on this. I simply don't believe steaks are as high as infidelity. So yes, I have moral failings but I also have lines I wouldn't cross. I'm struggling to see why that's so hard to accept.

We can all concede that no one is perfect. Lying to spare a partner's feelings is a moral failing, but it is not morally equivalent to betraying the fundamental trust and commitment of a relationship through infidelity. The severity and impact are vastly different.

Infidelity involves secrecy, calculated deception, and a profound violation of the partnership agreement.

We all have lines. Believing that some people have the strength to maintain the principle of not cheating is not a moral defense; it's a recognition of human will and commitment.

I honestly think you need to address this failure to distinguish between levels of moral harm if you want to grow into a person who would not betray a partner again.

I will concede that the profound feeling of "being seen" and the realization that you were chasing self-acceptance through external validation is a common and likely accurate diagnosis for the underlying struggle.

However, this is where the self-serving narrative must be challenged: your emotional need did not grant you permission to commit infidelity. You used a destructive, boundary-violating action—infidelity—as a disastrous form of self-medication for an internal lack of self-worth. True self-love is not found in a shared fantasy with an AP, but in the grueling, principled work of becoming the person who doesn't betray their deepest commitments.

You claim the "good people/bad people" dichotomy used in recovery spaces stunts growth and that judgment should be avoided.

I don't believe this dichotomy is universally false, nor do I think you can universally speak to what will help all cheaters. You can only speak to what you need. Some people absolutely need a wake-up call to fully grasp the severity and impact of their actions.

You ask if people are "justifying" or "just expressing" their feelings. When an explanation (like the need for validation) is used to minimize the act or deflect accountability, it functions as a justification.

You raise a valid concern about the motivations of people in these spaces—whether they are truly helping or just "exacting justice." If a responder is motivated by vengeance, that language is unhelpful.

However, when I challenge your claims, it is not for the "secret pleasure of putting you in your place." It is because your current thinking—that everyone is morally weak and that infidelity is a minor moral failure—is a hindrance to true growth. The "wake-up call" some people need is a necessary challenge to the intellectual justifications that allow them to minimize their actions.

To truly heal, you must embrace accountability for the deliberate moral line you crossed, not just celebrate your self-described traits of adaptability and survival.