SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

All sensible thoughts.

While I don't think you can truly get it, you could imagine a lot of the hurt a BS would feel if you had an ounce of empathy. The lack of it from WS at the time is crushing (but then she might not have done what she did).

I think the argument was worrying but I told her I expected my feelings to be validated not argued against. I can see her guilt and shame is going to fight against what is needed to R. I have shared with her a list of non negotiables which includes not Minimising my feelings. She had accepted so the next time this happens I will remind her of her choice to acceptas being a condition of us continuing next time something similar happens.

A practice that sounds cheesy but was incredibly helpful to me was that my therapist had me write down my story and then change my name to my best buddy's name. The practice involved me "sending him emails" on what my recommendations were. The conditions were that I had to be truthful, I had to presume that my friend wouldn't be offended by anything that I said and that these messages were sent, in this scenario, via an encrypted channel that would guarantee we would be the only two to ever see the messages.

It was a rather empowering process.

A practice that sounds cheesy but was incredibly helpful to me was that my therapist had me write down my story and then change my name to my best buddy's name. The practice involved me "sending him emails" on what my recommendations were. The conditions were that I had to be truthful, I had to presume that my friend wouldn't be offended by anything that I said and that these messages were sent, in this scenario, via an encrypted channel that would guarantee we would be the only two to ever see the messages.

It was a rather empowering process

As in giving yourself advice? I'll try anything. Have been using got to "chat" to my wife and say nasty things I really shouldn't in real life.

I also did this to practice my 180 convo (she met all my demands so didn't have to 180)

WS is making efforts, I think she's grasping that the work is "a lot". She had a really good week of being supportive and then went a bit off the rails. She finds the yo-yoing really difficult.

I have no expectations of outcome at this point (I can't control it) and focus is on me and my process. I liked Bigger's earlier post around choice and will be bringing those ideas into future discussions. I might move over to the R forum because I'm moving more towards that than I am towards D, but I think keeping laser focused on healing is more productive than a soft commit on R.

For those wanting to highlight her behaviour was "poor" (or maybe use more colourful language / descriptions), please don't. I'm suffering enough and have can generate enough negative perspective on my own. It just makes me feel judged and that's not helpful for me rigt now.

I should qualify "going off the rails".

She told me that during the A she didn't think about the impact on me, how I would feel when I found out (in response to a question). I told her later (I became overwhelmed, she asked me what was wrong) that it was really hard to hear that.

Queue an argument from her about how I twisted her words, "of course I wasn't thinking about you, I pushed thoughts of you aside" and then quiet hostility the rest of the day. Honestly, I'm still confused what the fight was about. My feelings were hurt and she was upset I was upset?

We had a checkin last night and I shared that I felt my feelings were being invalidated. She listened, acknowledged her response wasn't great. We continued the check in.

I don't see this as a setback so much as the struggle on the ground. Neither she, nor I are going to have all the right words all the time.

Anyways, that was that detail if people were wondering.

You seem like a level headed guy. I know one of the problems I had that you mention here is the "yo yoing". To *her* it probably looks like you are having random outbursts. To *you* it feels like you are sad, angry, full of just stuff, and it bursts out at some point. I encourage you to not hold it in so long. It will provide your wife with a more consistent message that you are in anguish.

I know that doesn't really seem to make sense since you want a positive relationship, but that's sort of what she needs.

No stimulus, no action.

I think you have a good attitude towards R, and I basically always see it as a "soft commit". I'm almost 6 years in and have given myself permission to change my mind at any time. My wife broke the vows first, so in marriage 2.0 the only way I can operate from a place of fairness is if I inject uncertainty on my end. It doesn't have to be the same way she injected uncertainty, but I simply refuse to hold on to an assymetric level of commitment where I'm more committed than her. I'm sure others here will say you both need to be all in or whatever, but I'm just telling you where I'm at and how I'm doing R. Our marriage is basically one day at a time and if she wants out, I'm not gonna stop her and vice versa. Neither of us want out. At least not today.

I agree that cheaters don't think about their impact. It's this sort of necessary internal deceit for an otherwise not shitty person to do such a shitty thing. They need to make up a narrative about how their cheating is special, which is hilariously is part of the whole cliche showing just how run-of-the-mill their affair is. "I was unhappy" "We were divorced in my mind" "If you didn't never found out, it never would have hurt you." etc. All these lies are about them saying they are just doing this for themself and that other people aren't affected by their actions if the other people don't find out. Basically every WS has to spin up this internal deceit before they lie to you the first time. That's the thought process they should be working on to identify and interrupt.

Good luck with healing and good luck with your M and if you choose R good luck with that. You are allowed to stay in limbo as long as you want. I chose to not choose for some time myself.

Thanks This0is0Fine, sage advice! I have a checkin with her this evening and my level of anger is bubbling over (in a healthy way).

She is really stuck with what work she can do absent IC (MC asked us to hold off on that for now) but that isn't working for me. I don't want to have to give her homework but I feel that's what needs to happen. She is a smart lady so I don't see why this is so hard. I'm inching back to a 180 conversation. She needs to lift her game.

Listening and empathising isn't enough.

We all feel your frustration and I think that everyone here who echo that it is a valid feeling at this point.

Here’s the facts:
1. Your wife unilaterally ended the marriage
2. Your wife did so without letting you know
3. You are living with this person who had a previous version (or mask) which you identified as partner material
4. The above person also has legal ties to you, confusing the necessary emotional decisions.
5. You are unsure of if starting a new relationship with this person is the correct decision.
6. Her willingness to work for a new relationship is a factor in your decision.
7. Both of you have agency to walk at any time. There is no marriage to save. There is only a decision to get with this ‘new’ person to ‘date’ and maybe one day (re)marry.

You’re confused - that’s to be expected! You also made the decision to not expose (completely your decision) which makes this entire process extremely more confusing and risky. Chaos in the mind sucks huh? Makes you want to be one of those Buddhists who isolate themselves at the top of mountains.

I’m sorry your cheating spouse is not stepping up to the plate.

I have a differing opinion than many here at SI on the best way to proceed after DDAY. Now this is based on my experience but a number of other posters have provided the sane advice or suggestions.

First I did not know about SI until years after my H’s affair so I was operating on instinct. Just for context after his last mid life crisis affair he begged me to R and I did not want to. I planned to D him as soon as the holidays were over (3 weeks time).

To shut him up I told him if he wanted to R he was free to do that but I was not helping him. I made no demands or gave him guidance or support. He was in his own. He needed to prove to me that he changed and he would be someone I wanted to stay married to.

Honestly if they have enough brain cells to cheat, they have enough brain cells to figure out how to repair the damage the cheating created.

It’s NOT the job of the BS to tell the cheater to do X, Y and Z. Again it’s my opinion and honestly it doesn’t show that the cheater is COMMITTED to the marriage. It just is another way to avoid and deflect facing the issues.

Which I believe is why so many cheaters avoid counseling. Too painful or not really interested in facing issues or making changes or maybe not even invested in the marriage. Whatever the reason is, it doesn’t matter — what matters is that the cheater is willing to make changes and make amends for the affair.

Explaining your needs and expectations etc. is exhausting and sort of makes you the marriage police. Telling a grown adult things like "I need you to do this or that" is exhausting but often necessary. However if nothing changes and you are repeating yourself again and again, it may be time to take a step back and re-evaluate the situation.

Nothing will change unless you (the BS) change. And if things in your marriage or relationship don’t change and meet your expectations or needs, then you have to either accept the status quo OR end the marriage.

Hope this helps you.

I think 1stWife and I are rowing along the same river as far as what might work...
I talked about options...

I think you should explore that a bit more. No – not saying jump directly to divorce – but rather that you don’t assume reconciliation is what’s going to work.
I sometimes talk about getting out of infidelity as the destination, and that reconciliation and divorce are simply two paths that lead to the destination. Sometimes both paths are open, sometimes only one is. Sometimes... well... probably ALWAYS... there can be blockages and hinderances along one or both paths, and you might spend some time evaluating which path can clear and open up.

I suggested you make it clear to your wife that she has options. Basically – do the work or end the marriage.
I think YOU need to be clear that YOU have options, and that you are BOTH clear about your options – the options both have.

Your goal isn’t to reconcile. Not any more than it is to divorce. Your goal is that in some time – that can be 6 months, 12 months, 18 months – you get out of infidelity.

It’s not likely that you reach your goal – that is to be completely out of infidelity – for a very long time. I can share that I took about 15 years before I had the PTSD infidelity gifted me removed... some form of infidelity-sand-corns that I carried along all that time. But you can decide that 3, and then 6 months from now you are convinced that you are progressing at an acceptable pace along either path – R or D – towards Out Of Infidelity.

I think it can be powerful when you tell your wife something along the lines that YOU are getting out of infidelity. Your deepest desire is that she come along so that you can try reconciliation, but irrespective of her decision or progress YOU are getting out. As-is you are doing so while dealing with the obstructions on R-road, but D-avenue is running parallel for now, and that if you ever get the sense that the blockage ahead is too much to handle, you will be tempted to switch.
It’s her call if she is part of the blockage, part of creating the blockage or part of clearing the blockage. You don’t necessarily see it as your role to point out each stone or pothole because she can probably clear most of them on her own initiative.
It won’t hurt to have some list of what you need. Not necessarily direct detailed instructions. But I guess you would need:
Total accountability – basically anything and everything you ask be answered truthfully. Like if you ask if she met OM N times but it was N+2 you want the RIGHT answer. You need to make it clear that any truth shared now damages less than any secret or lie uncovered later on.
Conviction that she’s committed to the marriage – she can be accountable with the time, her social media, her emails, her phone, her finances... It’s not really yours to ask, but her to offer.
Her realization and acknowledgement that the ONLY reason you two are attempting to reconcile is HER wish to do so, as well as YOUR wish to do so. This is important because she can’t hide behind some "if only I could" or "if only I was free" fantasy. She can, and she can be free. It’s an open option for her, as it is for you.