SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

What you are describing is normal. I read a lot in the just found out forum and the other bs stories. It’s because it allows us to take ourselves out of the equation.

Shame is what makes it hard to keep that objective view. Al we can think is we did this, and it’s extremely painful.

What you will hopefully move towards is "I did these things, I am going to choose differently moving forward in living my values"

Then as you do that it will help counterbalance the shame. You will be able to face yes you caused it, but you can be proud of who you have become and how you decided to ultimately deal with it so it can truly be put in the past.

I am about to tackle your other post which like I said I think it does have clues as to how to dig up some of the things you are looking to find so you can move forward more informed about yourself.

Yes mam, I was also promiscuous before I met my husband and thought it was how you got boys to like you too. I have put a lot of my self worth into my looks which has been devastating as I’ve gotten older to say the least tongue But they never took me seriously, which is why I was shocked

Same. My affair happened at 41. I felt like I had lost my looks/desirability. I was just a shell of who I could have been had I emphasized my own need to find fulfillment in a wider way. To know what I like and why. This is part of why I want you to think about that little girl you used to be. There are clues about your interests even back then. I used to paint and color more than anything so I joined an art class. I liked to play in the mud, now I garden. I didn’t have hobbies or things that helped me feel that I was more than my looks or who I could be for other people. It’s our programming as females to be pleasing and pretty and it fucks us up. I think males have things they were programmed to believe and think as well that do not serve them well. (That’s a generality, but of course I do not mean all females or all males- I just mean it’s common)

Yeah that’s a good point. I definitely would say it felt like I was pursuing a role much more than being actively pursuant of my sexuality or needs. But my husband would probably tell you I’m like that at home too. I struggle to know what I want or like. I think it drives him crazy because I’m sure he’d love to give me whatever I desire.

When I got here the person that I was wouldn’t tell him where I wanted to go out to eat because I feared his reaction. Why? Because I think part of me didn’t feel I deserved it. It’s non-sense of course. But I was very much this way. It takes practice to just start noticing and being more honest. Slowly getting braver. Listening to ourselves and know that we do deserve to have what we want if it’s a healthy or normal thing to want. It takes a while but experiment with hobbies and showing up and saying what you want. You will find that is part of the process.

Perfectionism and people pleasing are toxic to you and your relationships. It means that you automatically feel you have to show up guessing what is acceptable to the other person or who they would want you to be.

I couldn’t understand why I was letting some things happen that I didn’t want to happen. I did that when I was in college before I met my husband. Always went out partying and then wondering why I slept with guys I wasn’t even attracted to and hating myself for it.

For me, I was just always looking for attention where I could find it. And when it got out of hand I would think it would be unfair to stop it. I owed it to them for leading them on. Also because I was extremely afraid of rejection, that I was sensitive not to dole it out to others.

I can’t talk to my dad about anything negative without him getting upset or trying to put an optimistic slant on it. Some of those people were older than my parents like you said. My husband is older but only by a few years.

And that is your introduction in many ways to having relationships with males. Don’t show your true self, don’t be anything but pleasant and pleasing.

As a side note, I have always been very jealous before any of that happened. I don’t say that to justify anything I did. I’m just curious if it would lend any clues as to why I am the way I am.

Insecurity. You don’t love yourself so you can’t feel why or how people would love you. If you strengthen your sense of identity, who you are what you want, and you recognizing all the wonderful things you undoubtedly have to offer the world. You will change dramatically. Most of what changes me was building my self esteem, confidence, and sense of self. It changes your perseverance and how you operate. It’s a journey that you have to relentlessly engage. It makes you open rather than closed.

For example, even though I know my husband could still decide at some juncture he wants a divorce or has another affair,he does not define my worth or my happy ever after. I am going to strive for happiness with or without him. Of course I love him and hope that never happens but I am open to the idea I can handle whatever is in front of me because I am going to take care of me.

When I thought about divorce when I first found out, I still didn’t trust myself to take care of myself. Now, I know I have my own back it’s taken away a lot of fear.

When my husband and I first met, we moved in together very quickly. It was my first relationship. I couldn’t stand to be apart from him. I was so attached to him and I still am. I think I was overbearing to him because he had already been through so much trauma with his previous girlfriend. He would send me away to my mom’s on the weekend when he needed space. I think I was coming on too strong. I thought for sure he’d leave me, especially with his ex girlfriends reaching out to him and my inability to look and act like a porn star. I just couldn’t see how he could possibly love me and want to stay with me. Surely eventually he would get bored of me and want to leave me.

Read about attachment styles. Learn about them and how to move more towards secure attachment. This all relates back to self worth/love. Sense of self. Definitely start in those areas. I will write more shortly about some of what I did to help with that.

[This message edited by hikingout at 8:10 PM, Thursday, March 27th]

I was reading in one of your older posts about how you felt about your husband being older than you.
I don’t know if this is what you meant but I definitely let him take on that father role. I don’t think he wanted it but I wanted to be taken care of. I was and am so childish. He deserves an equal. He has always been so much more mature than me and I’ve always felt like he’s so high above me, like I would never catch up to him in intellect. I still can’t see what he sees in me, especially after all of this but I am thankful it’s something.
The dinner thing we can definitely relate to. Not just me lacking a sense of self but me being afraid if I like something different, then he won’t like me and he’ll leave me. And the lack of hobbies I can relate to as well. I may have said it already but I had interests before I met him. I liked to play piano and guitar and do yoga and all kinds of things, but I was afraid if I didn’t like the same music he liked or have the same interests as him, he get bored of me and wouldn’t want to be with me. I know, probably totally illogical.
Yes I can say there was a lot of feeling like I was leading J on; but in a more sinister fashion, a part of me got a kick out of it. I didn’t take enough personal responsibility for what happened, so I thought he deserved to be led on and it was like I was just enjoying hanging a carrot on a stick in front of him. I had blamed my AP and had so much resentment for him putting my relationship in jeopardy that I thought it was my weird way of punishing him, not letting him get all the way or give him "everything" he wanted. I know that must sound really messed up.
Yet I was definitely afraid to dole out rejection to others as well. Part of the people pleasing nature at work I suppose.
Those are good insights about the messages I got from my dad and about the jealousy/insecurity connection. I’ve heard about that before but I’ve never had the solution to it so well-described to me. That is a very strong and inspiring outlook to have about your future.
Thank you so much for all of the time you have invested in us. I wish I could think of a way to pay you back. At a minimum, I will do my best to implement your advice so that your efforts are not in vain. I really enjoy your posts and look forward to reading what you write next.

I don’t know if this is what you meant but I definitely let him take on that father role. I don’t think he wanted it but I wanted to be taken care of. I was and am so childish. He deserves an equal. He has always been so much more mature than me and I’ve always felt like he’s so high above me, like I would never catch up to him in intellect. I still can’t see what he sees in me, especially after all of this but I am thankful it’s something.

Most ws will tell you that they didn’t feel good enough for their spouse. They couldn’t see why they would want them. This is merely a projection on how we feel about ourselves. I haven’t looked through my old posts in forever it’s hard to even know where I was back then. I honestly feel like I am just now to a place that I have an age appropriate mastery of myself.

A lot of it starts with self talk. I don’t think I commented about what you said about porn stars. This was a big one for me too. For one thing, they portray sex in ways I don’t think most females even like. Secondly, their bodies are insane. It made me feel more like I belonged in National Geographic.

I don’t think men marry porn stars though, nor do they expect us to be one. The more I became vocal about what I wanted, the better for him. As far as the body thing? My grandma told me the best looking naked woman is the one he has in the room with him. I didn’t get it, but as I have aged I have become far less self conscious and I have learned she is right. I bounce and jostle and do whatever I want, let him see whatever, I don’t care what it looks like and let’s just say that works great for him too. It’s hard to accept ourselves when looks has been a huge pressure point for us since we were girls. This is an us issue moreso than a them issue.

The dinner thing we can definitely relate to. Not just me lacking a sense of self but me being afraid if I like something different, then he won’t like me and he’ll leave me. And the lack of hobbies I can relate to as well. I may have said it already but I had interests before I met him. I liked to play piano and guitar and do yoga and all kinds of things, but I was afraid if I didn’t like the same music he liked or have the same interests as him, he get bored of me and wouldn’t want to be with me. I know, probably totally illogical.

I get it. For me it was slightly different because my affair came almost 20 years into the marriage. I had sacrificed my time for those things to be a perfect wife and mother.

The results of this was the same though- the more we get away from who we are the less secure we become. The less assured and happy.

Like you, we got together young. Well I was young- 23. And I formed myself with him at my center. I wanted nothing more than to love and be loved. I hear that from you too. But it’s not enough. Both people need to have a separateness too. To develop and grow and expand and explore. Not by having affairs and such but through their interests and friendships. I didn’t have close friends because I felt I needed to be home doing the laundry and cleaning the house and taking my kids here and there and all the things. Having good friendships with other females allows me to explore other sides of myself. To feel camaraderie and emotional support that you can only get from other females.

So what I am talking about is work on expanding yourself. Feeling who you are, what you want. Share it all with him.

Also to battle the shame, keep making the best decisions daily as you can. Keep working on being able to sit and actively listen to him. Dig for your truths. You can’t be vulnerable and self protective at the same time.

Start small. He asks you what you want to eat, tell him. Make a playlist of music that you are discovering and share it with him in the car and see what he thinks. My husband and I like how Spotify sends a weekly discovery list and sometimes if we are driving we will play one and rate the music together.

Let yourself be known by your husband and that will help you see he loves you for you.

I used to think my husband loved me because I did everything for him. Even when I would ask him why he loves me he would say you take good care of me. So when I had my affair I twisted that to mean that he wanted a wife appliance and I was the one willing to be that.

So my IC said "stop doing all of it. Do only what you have to and leave the rest" and I said I hat!?! That’s just leaving a bigger deficit of what I have to do later! You know what? Later never came. It was because I added a bunch of shit in there that I felt need d to be done for things to be perfect- it turns out I was the only person who even cared about those things! It made me see that I didn’t have to sacrifice all my time and energy to earn his love. I suspect that’s not completely relatable to what is happening in your situation but it’s how we make ourselves think these things and it alters our views of reality.

Read about distorted thinking. You have a few ways I can see you have that, there are good lists online. Catastrophizing is one I had and I you have it too. You can build your self talk to help calm you. Not all roads lead to him leaving.

Thank you so much for all of the time you have invested in us. I wish I could think of a way to pay you back.

I am here to pay forward what was given to me. People like evolvingsoul, walkingoneggshellz, bravesirrobin, and many others that it’s just been too long since I have seen their screen name to be able to name them clearly all did this for me. If they hadn’t I don’t think I would have gotten where I needed to go and I would still be somewhere hating myself.

That is very well said: The more we get away from who we are, the less secure we become, the less assured and happy. It seems like such a logical concept but if you didn’t say it, I don’t think I would’ve come to that conclusion on my own.
Yes, I gave up my close friends and also felt the desire to be the perfect partner. I’ve always tried to keep a relatively nice home but the perfectionist side has always said it’s not good enough.
I also struggle to have close relationships with females but I think it’s because of my competitive nature and lack of trust in them. Again coming back to my jealous insecurities and lack of trust in myself I suppose.
I’d like to think I’ve been doing a better job of sitting and actively listening for the last few days. At least I hope I have. It’s hard to tell if I’m making progress or if he’s trying to be more in control his feelings for the last couple of days (not saying that from a critical place). I think I spoke about it, but It’s been a pattern for the last year or so: I’ll think things are getting better and it turns out he’s really just going into his shell. But I do think it helps when I bring this stuff up on my own without waiting for him to say something. It is more difficult for me to be vulnerable after the kind of conflict we had a few nights ago but I’m trying. Not saying that to blame, just something I want to work on.
I always hoped that I could get him to love me if I took good care of him but then when I failed at that, it explains why I’d be surprised that he’d still love me.
Thank you, that’s a good point about my distorted thinking. I guess feelings don’t always drive us to the most rational outcomes.
I hope I can dig deep and figure out how to answer these questions that shouldn’t be complicated but sometimes seem insurmountable. You are really good at following what I think are my incoherent thoughts and extracting important information from what I think is irrelevant.

But I do think it helps when I bring this stuff up on my own without waiting for him to say something

Ding! Ding! Ding! This is very important. And the opposite of being avoidant. Keep this up!

And as far as getting him to love you-

Start thinking of it as letting him love you.

And I am not clairvoyant the only reasons I know these things are all related is after years of studying myself, reading here, reading books, doing some therapy.

The things that scare us are not always deep dark truths. It’s the lack of knowing ourselves. What motivates us, drives our behaviors, etc.

Maybe at least we have gotten you to the point that you are less afraid to be curious. Once you know something you will have to practice it. And once you are aware of something about yourself new awareness will form on things that are adjacent to the things you just learned.

It can actually at times be an exciting process, not this early stuff, it’s too hard at first. But later you will feel like you can breathe.

Thank you again for your encouragement. It really helps give me hope.
I like that way of thinking, letting him love me.
That is a really interesting way to think of it, lack of knowing ourselves is what scares us. You’re right, because the way I revealed it to him was not conscious but obviously something was driving me and that was very unsettling because it felt very out of my control and made me feel like I was losing it.
Im not sure if I can say I’m less afraid yet but I’m definitely more interested in the concept of being curious. Thanks for giving me a sense of optimism.
Also, I may have already brought it up and it might make me sound crazy but I had bulimia as a teenager and hid it from my parents to the extent that they took me to doctors for stomach problems and I had my gallbladder removed (probably unnecessarily). So not sure if that ties in or not but it’s more of the hiding shameful behavioral pattern.

I think therapy will help a lot. I don’t have experience with bulemia, but it makes sense that there is shame in many areas of your life. It as I said in some of my opening remarks, shame is a judgement of your core self. It says "I am bad".

None of us are all bad or good. And what we can focus on is expanding the good. Being our best authentic self, sorting through our core values and living them.

I would reread "how to help your spouse heal" again. I think that it may hit you a little different now. There are also some good articles over in the healing library of you have not been.

I also liked a few of these books:

"The mountain is you" by Brianna West, I see she has some workbooks now I haven’t seen them but might look into.

"The power of now" by Eckhardt Tolle (this is a heavy read, I could only do a few pages at a time and then I had to let is absorb. But this book and some of his other teachings changed my entire life. I reread it at least once a year. Doing it now in fact. I go deeper with it every single time.)

Anything by Pema Chadron- "comfortable with uncertainty" and "fail again fail better" and "when life is hard". She also has some compassion cards that I haven’t looked at but sound interesting.

Dr. Gottman has some terrific books on relationship skills. I would read as many of those as you can. My favorite is probably "the seven principles for making marriage work" but he took off because of his book "why marriages succeed or fail." he is renowned for his studies in conflict and communication. I think everyone should read those books personally but it may help you deal with conflict better.

They have workshops you can go to as well in different cities. My husband and I did one and it was a lot more bonding and helpful than I was expecting at the time.

[This message edited by hikingout at 5:05 PM, Friday, March 28th]

Im glad you mentioned that because I have been meaning to reread that. I was trying to remember what I was going to do the other day and that was it.
Thank you for pointing me over to the articles in the healing library. I didn’t realize that was there as a resource.
I really appreciate the reading recommendations! Somewhere I had heard that the Mountain is You was a good book but I hadn’t gotten it yet.
I actually used to be really interested in Eckhardt Tolle before I met my husband so I’m sure I will enjoy the Power of Now. I think that will help a great deal with the anxiety I’ve been feeling.
Last night the specialist told my husband (he met with just her) for us to each put together a timeline. I am so nervous about that because I’ve tried to do it twice in the last year. Once for the polygraph knowing we were uncertain/estimating the dates. Later, we thought to look to our texts between each other (my husband and I) from that time period and it was actually very helpful for some context but not all. I did us both a major disservice by deleting the texts between me and J 10 years ago. I am going to do my best. I just want to get it right and it’s really very unfortunate that I destroyed most of the evidence over a decade ago but it is what it is I suppose.
I really look forward to getting and reading those books. Thank you so much. I was discouraged because I ran out of stuff to read and didn’t know where to go next.
I actually read the 7 Principles for Making Marriage Work not too long ago and found it helpful at the time but I will have to check out the other one. I didn’t know about their workshops. I’ll have to look into that. Thanks again for all of your help

You are welcome.

Yes, Tolle is amazing, he has helped me with my coping skills so much.

The timeline will be challenging but a lot of bs feel like it helps them to be able to see it on paper and review it. Just remember when you do it that your husband will be hurt more by anything you are tempted to omit than anything you disclose. I think he can handle any and all truth even if you fear his initial reactions. I am not accusing you of anything, I just know how tempting it is to hold back. I had to fight that myself, and I don’t think I was nearly as fearful as you are. At the time of my disclosure I wasn’t entirely sure I wanted my marriage, I was just more afraid of hurting him more than anything else. You are afraid of far more than only that.

Everything you can tell him lets the poison out, and I think he can handle it. He can’t handle the not knowing.

Have a good weekend, good luck as you start processing that and putting it to paper.

Thank you so much. I really appreciate that.
Yes, that’s what I was thinking as well (about telling him everything being less painful than leaving things out).
I hope you have a good weekend, too. Thanks again for all of the encouragement.

Hi Pleasehelpmebebetter,

I am back from vacation. I was avoiding laundry and packing before I left, and now I am avoiding UNpacking and laundry

I see you have had lots of conversation and I hope it is productive! Knowing HikingOut, I'm sure it was. If you don't mind, could you give me a short summary of where you are right now? How are things with your husband, what are you working on, have you had any insights? If you'd rather not, of course that's fine, I will get a chance to read your posts in a few days.

I thought things were going well but they’re not.

Monday he left me to go drive home to his mom’s but he came back. He was so mad at me that he was gesturing kicking at me in my direction that night.

Thursday he had his session with the specialist and she told him we both need to come up with separate timelines. That really stressed me out because I’ve already done this (once for the polygraph and passed but he thinks it’s bunk). I did us a major disservice by getting rid of everything back then, especially since my memories on the order in which everything happened have been so jumbled. So I went back to all of my text messages between me and my husband from that year and tried to extract anything fishy and listed them out with times and dates. I’m don’t know if that’s what she had in mind but I thought it’d be the most accurate thing. I spent 8 hours doing this after work yesterday.

I’m really discouraged because Everytime i feel like I’m making real progress I screw up again. I got upset when I came home from work today because he started asking me about girls’ numbers missing from his phone. I said I didn’t even know they were in your phone. I haven’t been in his phone in years. That’s something I did when we were first dating and I was scared. I wouldn’t be surprised if I’d deleted them back in 2011 when we met but I haven’t even gone through his phone in years. I don’t know what to do. I’m so nauseous and panicked. He keeps asking me for things I don’t have answers to and I can’t explain. I’m doing my best and it’s not good enough but I’ll keep trying. I’m trying not to get discouraged. I feel so lost.

[This message edited by Pleasehelpmebebetter at 11:28 PM, Saturday, March 29th]

Hi Pleasehelpmebebetter, you sound so discouraged, I am sorry to hear you sounding unhappy. I hope you take care of yourself - try to sleep, get some exercise, eat well, etc.

When you say that you thought things were better, why did you think that? Did he say he was OK and then something new came up? Or was it just that he put his concerns aside for a while? Do you know why he was so angry that he left for his mom's and made kicking gestures? And why is the polygraph not acceptable? I haven't read his posts (I scanned a little but not in detail and not all of them) so I don't know the details.

I think it might be better to just write down everything you remember, without looking at texts. That seems like what someone would do if they are trying to write a story that fits the known facts. Once you start to write, you will probably find that you remember things better, that one thing will link to another. If you are being truthful, the truth is on your side. The little bits here and there that don't add up will eventually find their place.

[This message edited by Pippin at 7:27 PM, Sunday, March 30th]

Hiking out,
You were right. It hit differently reading it this time. I’ve read it at least three times now. But every time I think it sinks in, I screw up again and can only seem to see it after it’s too late and already done.
I think a lot of what was holding me back was my struggle to face his pain which prevented me from accepting reality and being able to take full accountability. The fear still gets in the way. I panic and want to control things and it only makes things worse. I’m trying to stop doing that so much and just sit with him in his feelings but so often I fall short.

Pippin,
Thanks for your kindness.
I realized after I made the timeline from the texts that it looked like that. I was actually trying to keep it fact based so I could be objective and accurately gather times and dates. It helped jog my memory on when some things happened since I was having a hard time organizing all of the events together in a chronological order.
Unfortunately, my husband isn’t eating much at all but he wants to lose weight so I’m trying to offer him food but not be controlling. We’ve both been nauseous lately so I’m keeping it pretty bland.
I think you’re probably correct about me stupidly fooling myself into hoping things were getting better. I think he was just putting aside his concerns for a while, like you said.
I believe it was when he asked if I would give him an amicable divorce and I replied, is that what you really want? And he said no, and I said, me neither.
He doesn’t consider the polygraph acceptable because someone left a review that she is fraudulent.
He has been really depressed the last couple of days and I’ve had to work so I’ve been worried about him. But when I’m home, I feel like I make it worse or at best neutral, not better. I think and hope and pray I’m doing better today than I was yesterday but only time will tell. I tried to tell him I want to make him happy but I’ll be here with him for as long as he’s sad, even if it’s forever. I just know he deserves better and I’m trying to become that person for him.
Yesterday he talked to my mom while I was at work and that didn’t go well. She was dismissive and told him it was 10 years ago. That’s why I don’t like talking to her about us. I feel like she’s toxic and wants us to fail so I’ll come crawling back to them. Also, I know they want a grandchild since I’m the only child and they seem to be under the delusion that they could have that if I were with someone else but I’ve always wanted my husband more than I’ve wanted a kid. I’m really happy with our cat honestly.
Now he has texted my former boss and is going to question him about everything when he calls him.
Thank you so much for listening and being so thoughtful. I really appreciate it. I’m not getting it right all of the time yet but it really does help a lot.

Hi Pleasehelpmefeelbetter, I completely relate to the feeling of being worried and scared when one of use was at work and we were apart, even when it was not easy being together. I had no way of knowing what he was thinking or feeling and that was terrifying.

Does he respond well when you say you want to be here for him even when he's sad, even if it's forever, and you want to make him happy? It seems like more than having a wife who is willing to be with him during difficult emotions (which is necessary but not sufficient), the main issue is that he doesn't feel like he has all of the facts about what happened. I don't think processing emotions can really begin until he either decides he has all of the facts straight, or gives up and decides he's never going to know. I don't think the latter is healthy, but sometimes people have to live their lives not knowing big important things, so he may decide to do that. I would think that would likely mean removing you from his life though. So making sure he knows the truth about everything is critical. Could you take another polygraph test (or two, or five!) with someone more reliable? Send a message to the coworkers that you want them to be as helpful as possible? Another poster recommended hypnotism, perhaps that would be a good idea? He will be unsettled and unhappy as long as he thinks he is living with someone who is not truthful.

The full truth of everything that happened will be so helpful to you. There is a lot that I think you can't see. I don't think you can see that you were in a corrupt, degrading environment at that club. My husband works in an company/industry that was pretty gross when he first entered it, but through some bad publicity and punitive lawsuits, the executives got their act together and stopped client entertainment that involves strip clubs (or worse), drinking after hours is much less the norm, etc. When he was very junior, he could see that it was bad and chose not to participate, but he was not able to change the culture. You entered a workplace culture without being able to see it for what it was. That older man knew that giving you large tips would make you feel obligated to him. He probably knew you were financially pinched and being able to take home extra money was something you wanted. He certainly didn't walk up to you and say, "how would you like to prostitute yourself for a few hundred bucks?" The entire club culture was organized around that kind of exploitation and the junior employees reflected and responded to that, including you. I'm sure you had some feelings of guilt for participation, you figured that's the kind of person you are. Dan Allendar's book The Wounded Heart talks about the difficulty for victims of sexual abuse and exploitation to come to terms with their participation, the fact that some aspects of the situation were pleasurable (like getting money, getting attention from a powerful man). But you had no idea what the real cost was - if you did, you never would have accepted the first tip. You would have been alert - something is not right here. And if you had wiser people in your life who cared about you they would have warned you about working with powerful older men in an environment where you are nothing. Your husband needs to know what happened and you need to see more clearly the full extent of what was going on so that you can be prepared in the future. Just staying away from those situations doesn't really help, it is good to enter in an environment, see it for what it is, and choose to leave, but you also need to know how to see what is happening and handle yourself in the middle of it. Right now he has no assurance that your ability to handle yourself is any better than it was 10 years ago because you have little self understanding. Growing in self understanding will reassure him and I think it will help you see that what you did, what you participated in, is evil beyond what you were equipped to handle at the time, and you couldn't get out because you thought it was who you were, it was your fault. But you can't understand yourself if all the puzzle pieces are not right there on the table in the light.

The reason I reassured him of that is because he has expressed that whenever the going gets tough in his life, the people around him always discard him. I think he took it alright but, like I think you were saying, not a cure-all.

He actually seemed pretty happy when I showed him the timeline because I think it helped put the events in order better which is something that was lacking before. He expressed relief that I didn’t "half-ass" it like he was afraid that I would. He actually got his appetite back last night and was able to/wanted to eat dinner which was encouraging.

He seemed ok this morning until he asked if I was going to "be good" and I stupidly mentioned how because it’s my day off, my mom was probably going to want to hang out with me. So far I’ve been avoiding her because whenever I try to open up to her she spins everything and makes it worse. I feel it’s disrespectful to relate to her when she’s being so dismissive of him and telling him to "get over it" but he’s sweet and wants me to still have a relationship with my mom even though it’s something that has always been strained anyways.

In regard to the polygraph and reaching out to coworkers, I’m guessing we’re probably going to see what the specialist says when we both meet together with her on Thursday. Yes, I think hypnotism could be a good idea as well. I’m not sure if he agrees or thinks it’s silly.

Thank you for your valuable input. Yes, I definitely have feelings of guilt for participating in that and figured that was the kind of person I was. I may have to look into that book. I am trying to grow in self understanding so I can reassure him. I am reading a lot of books right now, trying to become the woman he deserves. It’s just a matter of letting ideas sink in and figuring out how to actually put them into practice.

That is a kind way to look at it. I see your point.

[This message edited by Pleasehelpmebebetter at 3:43 PM, Monday, March 31st]

he has expressed that whenever the going gets tough in his life, the people around him always discard him

It's very good that you know him and know what he needs - and I'm sure you want to keep getting to know him better. There are certain things that help my husband immensely. One is simply saying, "I want to help you. I am glad when you want my help." And that's because his mother shut down his requests for help when he was young, and he works in a cutthroat environment. It's such a simple thing to say, but it's powerful for him. So I'm glad you are able to give him that reassurance.

He actually seemed pretty happy when I showed him the timeline because I think it helped put the events in order better which is something that was lacking before. He expressed relief that I didn’t "half-ass" it like he was afraid that I would. He actually got his appetite back last night and was able to/wanted to eat dinner which was encouraging.

I am so glad to hear this! For his sake and for yours. It took me a VERY long time to be fully truthful. I had to pray for it every single day. I would substitute the word "truth" for the word "God" i.e. Truth is my shepherd, I shall not want, Truth makes me lie down in green pastures, etc. After 18 months I finally vomited up the rest of everything. I wish I had been able to do better. It took a long time after that for him to want to be close to me - a couple of years in fact. I had given up being close and figured that I would live a truthful life, continue to know God and myself, and be good to him in whatever what I could. But then after two years, he wanted to resume becoming intimate again (not sex, I mean really listening to each other and talking through life's issues). Anyway, my point is, it takes a long time to change your wiring. It's a balance of giving yourself grace for the process and fully committing to it every single day.

I feel it’s disrespectful to relate to her when she’s being so dismissive of him and telling him to "get over it" but he’s sweet and wants me to still have a relationship with my mom even though it’s something that has always been strained anyways.

One thing that you might do is to start practicing new behaviors with your mom. You seem like you see the situation with some clarity - your mom wants to control toward a certain outcome (grandchildren) and she doesn't care what you want. She doesn't respect your husband, doesn't see him for how good he is for you, and doesn't respect your choice. It's good you can see that, because when you see clearly, you can start to change your behavior. Perhaps next time you have that kind of interaction with her, you can say something like "I love my husband and I won't hear anyone disrepect him, not even my own mother. I am committed to him for life. *HE* is my closest family member. We can talk about something else or I can leave." When you start asserting yourself in one place, that feeling of competence and assertion will spill over to other places. It might feel terrifying at first - it is good to prepare, have a sentence prepared, visualize what you will do, etc.

In regard to the polygraph and reaching out to coworkers, I’m guessing we’re probably going to see what the specialist says when we both meet together with her on Thursday. Yes, I think hypnotism could be a good idea as well. I’m not sure if he agrees or thinks it’s silly.

The main thing is that you demonstrate in every way that the truth is on your side, that you are willing to pursue it in any way and in whatever form he wants. There was a time when my husband wondered if our children were his. Keep in mind - I had one affair during our marriage (though I was a promiscuous wreck before our marriage), when the youngest was 7, and there was no PIV or oral sex. But how was he supposed to know that!? He had no way of knowing what was true and what wasn't. So I said of course, let's do the DNA test immediately. He relaxed a little. I encouraged again and he said no. Then I made a joke about each kid and how they were like him (or his mother) - I know that he likes humor. We never did the DNA test but I am 100% for it any time that he wants. I would do it without his knowledge if I thought it would help him.

I am trying to grow in self understanding so I can reassure him.

This times a thousand! When you say, "I don't know why I did that" it's very scary, for him and for you. If you are driven by unknown unexamined motivations, what's to say what will happen? Now or in ten years or in twenty years or when he is old and sick and dependent on you? You need to KNOW yourself inside and out. This is where the meditation, mindfulness, acceptance of yourself, curiosity, etc all becomes helpful. You said you deleted contacts in his phone when you were first together (or married, I can't remember) and you have a superficial reason - you were jealous. But there's a deeper reason. You thought he wouldn't love you or want you if he saw something better. Where does THAT come from? And then how can you reassure yourself that not only are you worth loving and caring for, but that if he does decide to be with someone else, it's not because you aren't lovable and wonderful, and you will be OK. That's the self knowledge that is reassuring, I think.

One more thing. Sorry for the monster post. As I wrote, I was a promiscuous hot mess before we were married. My husband watched me grow up (we lived in the same town) and from his quiet perch on the chess club team, my drunk-at-school, sleep-with-everyone cheerleader antics were both fascinating and a challenge. He felt like such a masculine man when I asked him to get me out of that mess when we were seniors in high school. He (and I) thought that just moving away and building another life would be the thing that would fix it. Spoiler, it did not fix it, though for many years we were distracted with a busy life. Now that he has helped me finally get deep down to the root of everything, he feels like SUCH a masculine man, and I am finally the self-aware, steady, faithful presence at his side. (if he was reading this he would peek over my shoulder and say and super hot, don't forget that, though I would say not bad for my age). This is obviously not everyone's story, there are many good men and women on these boards who did everything they could to help their spouse and there was no way, because the spouse was not willing. But I suspect - maybe - that your husband knew before you were married that you were not only the wonderful woman he loved, but also a bit of a mess, and that he wanted to be the one to help you grow into a better person. I might be wrong. But if I'm not, then allowing him to see all of you, and help you face the hard truths about your fears and shame about what you have done - that's going to make him feel amazing. Not all at once, and the hard parts are harder than anything he has done before, but eventually. It would be such a gift for him.

[This message edited by Pippin at 4:49 PM, Tuesday, April 1st]

Pippin,
Thank you for sharing your wisdom and encouragement. I was really spiraling today into a selfish depression and you helped get me back on track more than you could know. You’re a godsend.
I do keep wanting to get to know him better.
I have been praying to be truthful, I believe since my husband suggested I do that one day. I have felt like I am more earnestly seeking it rather than trying to hide and run away from it or gloss over it. That is a really neat way to say the Lord is my Shepard. I’ve been at it for over a year myself and I’m asking why I couldn’t do it better sooner. That’s kind of where I’m at, trying to improve myself and be better to him and put God at the center. To me, It’s the worst and scariest feeling when he’s closed off but I understand why. I know nothing is guaranteed but to me it’s worth it to wait and see. As someone who is pretty extreme, black and white, I struggle with balance but you worded it perfectly.
I have been trying to pull away from my mom. She wanted to hang out yesterday but I just talked to her briefly on the phone (not about this). It’s true, she doesn’t care what I want or how good he is for me. I think she doesn’t respect him or my choice because she’s never respected me. Both of my parents know I don’t ever want to be without my husband because when she brought it up a couple weeks ago, I got really quiet and they could tell it upset me. Unfortunately, I am a little conflict-averse but I’ve been working it. I could definitely stand to be more direct if it comes up again. I talked to my dad this morning and he was very compassionate towards my husband and supportive of our marriage which I really appreciated. I can tell my dad respects my husband and sees how good he is for me.
Yes, that is very well said and I want to do that.
That’s a very good point about being driven by unknown and unexamined motivations. I also want to become secure in myself so he will feel safe. I believe a lot of my jealous nature is driven by my insecurities and a lot of my controlling behaviors are based in fear. He’s already lived too long with the unfairness of all of that and I don’t want to put him through it anymore.
Yes, that hits the nail on the head that I thought he wouldn’t love me if he saw something better. I’m not sure where it comes from other than my mom is and always has been very critical. Or maybe because my dad was absent a lot due to working so much. That was very hard for me to read that sentence about him being with someone else and me still being lovable but I think I needed to hear it.
Please don’t be sorry for the length of the post! I can’t thank you enough for putting so much thoughtful time and energy into this. It really helped me more than you’ll know. I was going south and you really helped turn it around.
I too was wild before I met him and think I thought the same thing, going to another town would fix it but it didn’t, like you said. For many years we were distracted as well but in the sense that i didn’t start dealing with any of these things that I hid from him until last year.
I would love to be able to become the steady rock he deserves. He probably did know I was a mess and wanted to help me but maybe didn’t realize how long it would take for me to actually start to even want to try to grow up. I think you’re right. He is a very good man and has expressed a desire to help me face my fears and shame which considering the circumstances is pretty remarkable. He is incredibly strong but I don’t want to extend the suffering for him. At the same time, I don’t want to rush it and do a botched job.
Hiking out,
I just finished the Mountain is You. Now I’m reading Comfortable with Uncertainty and it’s really helpful. I just trying to practice actually integrating the techniques. Thank you again for the recommendations.

I have been away dealing with various things and have not had a chance to get in. However, I find I am a bit stuck on what else to write at this point.

I will be honest in that I have concerns over a pattern that is emerging here that I do not know what I am looking at.

It’s all the stuff that you need to dig on your honesty and motivation.

You have now told him:

- that you did not unblock an ap, accused him of doing it.

-you did not wipe out his contacts, accused him of losing it.

-you have kind of skipped through why you returned the condoms, and the timing of doing that 11 years later

-the multiple email addresses is maybe valid for work reasons but you got a different job in 2022, and also why delete the messages from it? You would have at the very least gotten welcome to Facebook messages.

It feels to me that there is something not being asked or being said here.

It feels like there is gaslighting happening from your end, but at the same time I know the trauma from years of trickle truth could be playing in here as well causing him to over- logic things that were emotional decisions for you.

It disturbs me that you yell at him. That is a big red flag. I understand that this is a work in progress and I still believe you are redeemable in all the ways I have expressed it, but you must find a way to commit to not doing more and more damage. I believe you want a loving relationship with him but you are in your own way.

I am walking very carefully here because I really don’t understand what is happening and I don’t want to come off as accusatory of a situation that I have limited understanding of.

I don’t even have to understand, but I hope you will focus on those discrepancies and understand those are the things that will bring down the whole house of cards if they continue, and continue to not be properly explained.

The truth is I am not sure how to view it because I understand that there can be many explanations that I have seen over the years that don’t end up being how they look in the forum. We get snapshots of whatever either spouse chooses to share.

So all I can do is vaguely say- if you are turning things on him undeservingly, that is abusive and creating way more damage than any truth ever could. On the other hand, if he is losing touch with reality, that still lands to me as why that is- and I have to keep coming back to that would be an issue he has developed through trickle truth. Either way that still comes back to you.

So when you are yelling at him (at least that is what he is describing) for being traumatized by trickle truth, that is not the type of behavior that will lead you away from your shame.

What will lead you away from your shame is accountability, truth, ammends and truly conquering that mountain which is you.

I do want to say I still have you with some benefit of the doubt here, I have seen too much come out on these boards over the years where very little surprises me anymore.

I will be honest, I have begun to wonder if he does already have the truth on 2014 but there have been other things that you have sought to control the outcome on. For example, I have wondered did you delete his contacts so that he couldn’t get in touch with some of these people? Though I will be honest, in the Information Age where you can basically find almost anyone using social media or the internet, that does not seem like a plausible plan to delete those people. But then again, there Has been so much reactive, illogical behavior that it’s hard to tell.

I started into this thread saying "you realize this makes no sense" and I upset you because you thought I would just come after you. I don’t want to come after you, I want to help you, and the only thing I can say here is if you are digging into the truths, dig into the ones that cast the most doubt.

Your goal is to begin building trust as soon as you possibly can. And as long as these loose ends hang out nothing will move forward. I have some idea that the real explanation for some of this may not even be all that sinister. Maybe you don’t know how the ap got unblocked. Maybe you did unblock it to ask him for corroboration of what you remember but then know that talking to him would have been breaking NC and not received well.

I don’t know what it is, the biggest thing that will help you reconcile with him is reveal these answers to him. The high emotions you show in telling him he is losing it, doesn’t support what I would expect a truthful person who is taking accountability to do.

This is all very hard to say to you because I want you to be here working on yourself. And I hope you were encouraged when he reacted so well to getting a better timeline. I still believe in you. I just think that um the way you are trying to control the situation is working totally against you.

My recommendation is if any of this feeling I have had any merit, disclose to therapist and work through with them a full disclosure. I don’t know but I can’t just pretend there isn’t this big elephant in the room. I just don’t know what it is because I don’t know either of you.

Is he making a mountain out of a molehill? Maybe? It seems like there is more here though and that’s what is leading him to his intensive detective work.

For what it’s worth, I do think you likely passed the poly legitimately. I just don’t know what he should have asked in addition because something here isn’t right. If you passed it legitimately there shouldn’t be things that seem like gaslighting.

A review like the one he describes lends nothing for me. We have businesses and people come on and write fake things occasionally, for whatever reason. Probably competitors. A poly examiner is going to make more money from being reliable than not being relatable, and a ws going on to tell on themselves after fake passing knowing their spouse may see it, doesn’t seem likely. What seems likelier is someone who didn’t like their results casting doubts on the validity of the examiner. To me one bad review is a straw man argument based on betting there aren’t internet trolls or people the examiner pissed off. Who picked the examiner? Could you repeat it with a different one?

I am sorry this is all very confusing to me, and I don’t expect you to come into this board and clear it up. I am just urging you to clear it up with him, and to treat him much more gently than you are. He seems to think he is indestructible but I see a man who is already destroyed. He needs to heal and you need to provide him an environment to do so. And you have much healing to do as well and you both deserve to be the best versions you can be for yourselves and each other.

Take the leap.

[This message edited by hikingout at 4:34 PM, Wednesday, April 2nd]