SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

Hey internet. Something has happened that has forced me to be the most honest I've been yet with myself, and I need your unbiased thoughts.

Background

Every year or so I have a time where I end up seriously wondering if I made the right choice in staying. Most recently this past fall (https://www.survivinginfidelity.com/forums/?tid=664381&HL=35989)

If I'm being really honest, sometimes I paint a rosy picture of my situation, perhaps trying to convince myself that I made the right choice.

The truth is, at the time I made the post above, I was in therapy for myself, talking to the therapist trying to suss out why I kind of wanted to leave my marriage. Also at that time was kind of a prolonged period of feeling sort of ignored by my wife who always seemed to busy with other things for me.

When we talked about it, her first response was "I'm here aren't I?" (as in, I'm in the house). "Isn't that enough?"

She was absolutely wrapped up in her own thing. Eventually I would almost daily drive up to a nearby lake and just stare at it for an hour or two, reflecting on our entire marriage. During one of these times, I was thinking about every uncaring thing she had ever done, and I contrasted it to a friend I had long ago who helped me through a difficult time and was relentlessly kind, and I felt sick.

At times I thought to myself I would leave the marriage in November, after my nephew's wedding. For whatever reason though, the feeling passed and I am still here.

For what it's worth, here are the more uncaring things she has done over the years (roughly in order of occurrence):
* When I started to lose my hair, she specifically said I was no longer attractive because of it. (She now says I am but the original comment still upsets me simply by virtue of how uncaring it was.)
* When I applied to college, she said it was a waste of time since I would probably flunk out anyway.
* She said my family was a sinking ship.
* She generally hated sex with me.
* She had her affair.
* When my father who lived in another city was terminally ill, she was frustrated with how much time she was needing to spend away from home to support me, and at one point said something like "why can't he die faster?" before deciding to drive back home and leave me alone with my dying father. (He passed away like two days later. I still have the voicemail where she called weeping and apologizing for that statement).

More recently I think it's gotten a little better (I think?), but typically:
* There are times where I don't feel much like a priority
* For my 40th birthday, she said she was going to put something together, but at the day before my birthday told me she was too busy with other things and couldn't do it.
* There is a team sport we play together. If one of us makes a mistake that she thinks makes her look bad, she criticizes us all really harshly. She does this enough that pretty much nobody wants to play with her anymore.

The event

So that old friend and I started talking a week ago, out of the blue, with a relationship problem. Before you all jump on the MadHatter train, I told her the things she wanted to change in her marriage were valid and pointed her to a good marriage counselor. I have conducted myself with honor here.

But on the inside -- my god. She is so fricking relentlessly kind. She's never said one mean thing to me. It got me thinking that there must be others like her.

And I started thinking about my friends, all of who also have never said one mean thing to me.

Seeking an objective opinion, I met individually with my three closest friends over the weekend and simply asked them "What do you think about the way wife treats me?" (That is literally the question I asked. I'm trying to be unbiased here)

One said she was really tough (to be around).
One said she was disrespectful and contemptuous, and seems to behave as if I don't have any value.
The third said they didn't really understand why I was with her.

I'm not about to run off with this other girl. I am not that naive. But, here I am again.... did I make the right choice in staying?

Have I been lying to myself? In another bit of honestly that I don't like to acknowledge, sometimes I feel the affair was a missed opportunity to leave :(

At the same time, enough of the time I'm content -- I've stayed this long. Am I settling? Can you all help me navigate my thoughts?

She honestly sounds like an awful person and if it were me I'd probably already have fallen out of love with her based on her actions and her comments. I'm sure you have a lot of resentment towards her too how could you not.

If it were me I would detach, get myself strong enough to leave and then leave. Why spend the rest of your life miserable being with a miserable person? Anyways that's just my own opinion. I hate people that nitpick, criticize, and basically never have anything good to say. You can tell by the people who are around them which is usually not very good friends or very shallow friends. My xWS was in that group.

I don’t think the other girl (or any other girl) should factor into your decision.

I think you should figure out if your wife is someone you want to spend your life with. I’m in a constant state of doing this myself.

You need to decide if your wife is the person you want to spend the rest of your life with.

You have seen and know her true colors - but only you can make that choice. Not your friends, buddies, team mates, etc. And the apparent kindness of an old friend of the opposite sex should have no bearing.

I'd say life is too short to be staying with your WW. I mean, c'mon man, when you introduce her as your wife, are you actually *proud*?

I also would be extremely careful with this opposite-gender friend. It's dangerous for old friends to reconnect as you did, as a lot of affairs start that way. And while I understand you don't want to hear it, the ground is quite slippery there. (You brought her up in this story in your OP for a reason?)

[This message edited by WontBeFooledAgai at 12:50 AM, Wednesday, January 15th]

Agreed on the concern about the old friend. One thing I'm worried that I might be doing is dredging up all the worst parts of my marriage only now that the old friend has resurfaced.

Though, again I did the same thing last fall before reconnecting, so maybe not?

The old friend does have a lot of the qualities I would like in a partner so yea I need to be very careful here. Even then though, her decision regarding her situation and my decision regarding my situation have to be independent of each other. I have not given her any indication of my inner thinking on this issue.

Old friend and I never had a romantic connection.

I just scheduled a fresh slew of meetings with my therapist.

Upon reflecting a bit more this evening, the typical cycle with my wife is a long period of ok-ness and then some really uncaring thing that upsets me for a while, followed by another period of ok-ness, etc... I think that is why I go through the cycle. In my mind it's a feeling of "Well, she's not mean all the time", but eventually she will probably do another uncaring thing.

Also my phone has been open and my wife has looked over my communication with Old friend, at my encouragement. I have really taken steps to the best of my ability make sure I conduct myself honorably here.

[This message edited by saturnpatrick at 1:10 AM, Wednesday, January 15th]

Note we've been married for 20 years, so the big list above is spread out over a 20 year time.

My thoughts before doing anything are to give old friend advice and wish them well (which I've basically already done), go through at least a few sessions with the therapist, and maybe schedule some MC to address the sport meanness that frankly has been brought up a number of times over the past couple of years but still continues.

At this moment, I actually see the sport meanness as the biggest potential weakness in our marriage.

Ugh, just talked to my sister who also said she didn't like the way W treats me. That's 4/4 so far on people close to me :(

It's worth noting neither her or any of my friends know about that big list I had in the first post.

I hate that I'm even entertaining the idea of leaving right now. I feel like a quitter.

[This message edited by saturnpatrick at 1:44 AM, Wednesday, January 15th]

did I make the right choice in staying?

Every morning, you wake up and choose again. Ask yourself in the evening each day if you made the right choice this morning.

For what it's worth, here are the more uncaring things she has done over the years

Google on Naikan Therapy. In it, they have you ask and answer three questions with respect to a relationship:
1. What you have received from them
2. What you have given them
3. What troubles or difficulties you have caused them

Note that there’s a question #4 that goes unasked. That’s because we spend the most of the rest of our lives focusing on it. The three questions above are to bring you to be more honest about the relationship.

Not saying you shouldn’t move on. I am saying it’s not a once and done decision. You decide every morning…

My thoughts are that you might want to sit down and ask yourself some questions.

Are you staying with your wife because you have invested 20 years and think you don’t want to lose that investment? If any part of you says "yes", please look up "sunken cost fallacy" and make sure your logic is sound. Because it isn’t. Remove this from your checklist of reasons to stay, and any time it comes up in your head again, stop it.

If someone else said things like this to you, how long would they remain your friend? If you valued the relationship, would you confront them and demand change - and if they failed to respect your request, which is basically to be treated with kindness, would you continue the relationship or would you break it off? Think about it - would you even call that friend for lunch?

The biggest thing have for you to think about is this:

When I am faced with a situation where someone I know well is treating me badly, I ask myself "is this new behavior for that person, or is this their usual behavior?" and I make my decision accordingly.

If it’s new behavior, I will have a conversation with the person. Usually it’s a misunderstanding, easily solved.

But if this is NOT new behavior, and how they usually act, I have a decision to make. Am I willing to continue to accept being treated badly? Am I willing to allow the disrespect - despite having talked with them and continuing to be disrespected? Am I willing to say to myself "in order to keep this person in my life, I have to be willing to accept disrespect and abusive behavior, I’m willing and aware, and from now on I will submit".

Because in reality, if I know this about a person, and I have had many discussions with them, if they continue without changing, the answer they are giving me is that they will NOT CHANGE, that they do NOT respect me, and that they do NOT care about me.

Any further relationship with that person that results in further disrespect to me? That’s on me now. I know this, and at this point, after making this conscious deliberation, am making a purposeful decision to continue a relationship with someone I know and accept will be disrespectful to me. I am choosing this - I know they’re a snake, I know they’re going to bite me, and I’m going to allow it.

Maybe I just need more bites before I decide? I don’t know. Maybe I’m hoping I can train the snake? Maybe I’m hoping the snake will change into a puppy?

But if I don’t see actual CHANGES toward puppyhood, I’m not keeping the snake.

I think you need to get the book "co-dependent no more" I think it will help you quite a bit.

saturnpatrick post #6:

Agreed on the concern about the old friend. One thing I'm worried that I might be doing is dredging up all the worst parts of my marriage only now that the old friend has resurfaced.

Though, again I did the same thing last fall before reconnecting, so maybe not?

The old friend does have a lot of the qualities I would like in a partner so yea I need to be very careful here. Even then though, her decision regarding her situation and my decision regarding my situation have to be independent of each other. I have not given her any indication of my inner thinking on this issue.

I am going to be blunt with you here: YOU ARE CASING EACH OTHER OUT FOR AN AFFAIR. Your right hand may not know what your left hand is doing, but this is almost positively what is happening--even if you aren't consciously aware of it. She already *seriously* violated a boundary by confiding in you (someone of the opposite gender, who just came back into her life) by disclosing her issues with her partner instead of you.

Anyway, consider yourself warned.

[This message edited by WontBeFooledAgai at 5:57 PM, Wednesday, January 15th]

I think you know the answer to your question; you're just afraid of acting on it.

Search for the Sunk Cost Fallacy... It may apply to you. 5/5 people close to you can't see how she's good for you and you have not written even one positive thing about the marriage in this thread. "OK-ness" doesn't count.

I am going to be blunt with you here: YOU ARE CASING EACH OTHER OUT FOR AN AFFAIR. Your right hand may not know what your left hand is doing, but this is almost positively what is happening--even if you aren't consciously aware of it. She already *seriously* violated a boundary by confiding in you (someone of the opposite gender, who just came back into her life) by disclosing her issues with her partner instead of you.

While blunt and maybe harsh - this is clear, concise and spot on accurate. WontBeFooledAgai nailed it.

Come to think of it - that's how WH LTA started (and so many countless others) - just harmlessly reconnecting & catching up with an old friend. I think it a chapter in the Cheater's Handbook called "Old Friend - Slippery Slope".

You, weather you realize it or not, have one foot over the edge.

Reading through this entire thread twice two things jump out at me:
1 - you are vilifying your wife (which is probably well deserved)
2 - you are glorifying this old friend of the opposite sex (which is very dangerous & a huge red flag)