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Thank you for your kind words, Kitchen.

For example, if they stated they don't do sessions or will stop when they have determined abuse or major lying/deceiving exists or they don't take clients with a personality disorder,

While I think that’s good in theory, in practice, I could see how that approach might actually be provoke a disordered person to either completely shut down or put on a show for the therapist.

What I’m inferring from the therapist’s behavior before and after the sessions was that, by making few comments, mostly observing, and keeping a poker face, the therapist was trying to get an accurate read on their relationship dynamic. He was trying to avoid saying or doing anything that might influence Chelsea or her husband’s behavior or interactions.

Because the therapist was listening intently and not reacting— either to the husband’s bad behavior or Chelsea’s anguish— the husband didn’t feel like he was being judged and got comfortable enough to let his mask slip. Whatever glimpse the therapist got of WH’s true face must’ve been alarming enough that he had to speak with Chelsea about it privately.

Chelsea, if you still feel weirded out by this meeting with your former MC, bring it up with your IC and get her take on it.

The appropriate thing to do in MC would have been to confront your H with his observations during a session. Or to see him separately for IC and confront him then, then talk about it in an MC session.

What he did was incredibly unprofessional. I bet ten bucks your IC will be stunned by his behavior.

I could see this happening if your H was dangerously abusive. Otherwise, no. Not cool.

[This message edited by SacredSoul33 at 2:17 AM, Monday, April 29th]

Your WH sounds cruel, abusive, controlling, and he does not in any way seem to be reconciliation material. Professional or unprofessional, I am very glad this MC told you the truth. Don't be distracted by his methods when your gut is obviously screaming at you that "he's right."

and weirdly WH has been perfect this weekend, doing all the right things and helping massively around the house.

Geeze. That is NOT a very long time to be perfect. Two days? Please understand that you deserve much better. And start seeing your friends and family again. Please.

Just to say that whilst I do stick to my opinion that a therapist should not contact you outside of sessions to tell you how to live your life, and in my opinion, this therapist should have called your WH out on his shit during the counselling session (regardless if he stormed off), your husband is treating you very poorly and I don’t think you have much to work with in therms of reconciling. He sounds ruthless and horrible and you do deserve better.

So regardless of how professional or not your ex therapist was, you should think twice before you offer this man any more time.

BTB I’m sorry to read your experience with your ex too, that’s appalling.

[This message edited by Luna10 at 8:54 AM, Monday, April 29th]

Thank you all, I appreciate everyone’s opinions.

I will say that our MC did call out my WH in sessions but it was more of a soft approach "Do you see how you have hurt Chelsea678 with your actions" or other such ways to see his reaction and sometimes my WH would say "I suppose so" or "I didn’t see it but yeah now you say I’ve hurt her it makes sense" If he’d gone any harder my WH would have got up and left.

I think my WH is a narcissist (although I hate that this word gets thrown about, so I don’t say it without really thinking it) - he really doesn’t feel empathy and certainly puts himself before anyone else amongst many other narc traits. But surely if a therapist doesn’t discover a personality disorder until later down the line they can’t just wash their hands of their clients just because of this?

And as for me saying he was "perfect" this weekend - he wasn’t. I think I just feel guilty now that I went to IC and heard what I heard, so any nice behaviour makes me feel even worse. Whilst he was doing stuff around the house I was doing all the childcare so he could avoid helping there so actually he was doing things he wanted to, to avoid doing what he didn’t want to!

I see my IC in 2 hours and I’m literally counting down until then. Will update you all with what she thinks on the situation.

Professional or not I do appreciate what was said to me and think without a professional saying it I would probably stay in this limbo state of R for years to come.

I suppose I need to start thinking of my exit plan as he will be a nightmare the second he knows R is not possible - and he’ll be back on dating apps/trying to move on straight away - he always needs a partner. So I need to work with my IC on being mentally strong when all this crumbles and he knows R is not possible.

I just feel sad for my children and for the future I’d hoped we’d have together.

My IC was surprised at what my MC said to me. Although she did say that if he was coming from a place of serious concern then it may have been justified him feeling the need to say it. She did say that she’s not a trained MC so doesn’t know the protocol on personal opinions being said. She did tell me what he said was just an opinion though, professional or not.

I feel like I just need to think for a bit now and not make a hasty decision - there are children involved so I can’t just rush into something but also I think it has certainly made me think R is not possible but it’s not as black and white as "leave today."

Chelsea, I hope you don’t think I’m threadjacking; I just see a lot of similarities between your situation and mine, just based on the little you shared.

I know what it’s like to open up my heart to and sob in front of a man who is an ice cold in the face of my suffering.

Unlike most of the people on this forum who reconciled successfully, his affairs weren’t anomalies in what I thought was a happy marriage. It was part of a larger pattern of selfishness, callousness, and cruelty that extended into other aspects of life. And any time I was on the cusp of waking up and pulling away, he would show me glimpses of the loving, romantic man I fell in love with for just long enough to make me believe there was a chance.

Just make sure that when considering R, you look at the relationship as a whole and decide whether it’s acceptable to you. In particular, ask yourself whether you would want one of your kids to be in a relationship with someone who treats them the way their father treats you…. Because your marriage is setting the standard of what they consider normal.

Thanks Bluer I appreciate any input you have and yes the affair that happened in our relationship has only highlighted a lot of mistreatment and disrespect regardless of the affair - in fact that doesn’t even seem to be the major issue now it seems many other aspects are.

I just don’t know how to get out.

I’m scared of him co parenting our children as he is neglectful and selfish (and can be a drunk who would no doubt drive with them in the car!)
He’d be straight back out with a new girlfriend and introducing the children straight away. There’s just a lot of fears with how he’ll behave once we separate.

Im also staying as I have nothing but him. It’s not like I have a close knit family anyway so even once we are done for good I don’t have a support network to fall back on. Friends, a lot of them ditched me as they disliked him and some I let fade out because I knew he didn’t like them or didn’t want me to go out without him. It just seemed easier letting them go.

And pathetically I do love him and there are good times albeit not as many as I thought in my head. Most are tarnished now since DDay too.

My WH has treated me awfully and sat there each time admitting to everything and at times smirking at his own behaviours as though what he’d done was amusing while I’m in tears.

I can't imagine why your therapist would have a negative opinion of your WH. Like BTB, I'm not a fan of wishy-washy therapists. I told all of mine to be blunt with me and they were.

As for your situation, it seems that you've tolerated it for so long that you've normalized it. I get it. It wasn't until I detoxed enough after S, that I started to see just how shitty my EXWW was as an actual partner. His treatment of you is abusive and he seems to leave a wake of destruction behind him. Is this the life you want?

You can be right in what you are saying and still be unprofessional. However, since you are from another country there could be different guidelines at play.

My therapist recommended that the ws have a separate IC because it often causes a conflict in interest. Our MC would call us out in how we related with one another and to help us communicate more effectively. The ws should have an IC who is doing a deep dive on their vast issues. However, sometimes it’s just so apparent there is no place to go with that spouse.

Personally, I would not reconcile or put effort into MC ever until the ws goes to his own therapy for at least six months and is showing marked progress. He is half the relationship and most bs are wasting their time there until the ws takes some accountability and is showing empathy.

Ws heal ws

Bs heal bs

Together they heal the relationship.

You can’t heal a relationship with a toxic person.

If you wish to reconcile consider that as a requirement as well as transparency and anything else you want to add.

[This message edited by hikingout at 5:14 PM, Monday, April 29th]

I don‘t know if your husband is abusive or not, but I can share that trained professionals recognize all sorts of signs and behaviors that indicate if a relationship is headed towards abuse.

An abusive spouse seldom starts the abuse by beating the crap out of his partner. The goal isn’t pain, but control. If they can get that control with manipulation, then they are fine with that. If being nice and considerate doesn’t do it they might use mood or emotional intimidation, followed by physical threats (real and implied) and finally the progression to physical abuse.

The MC has listened to you two talk. Recognizes the pattern, might even see some manipulation, Then the "strops" you mention... He might be seeing signs that are screaming "potential abuse!!! – need to stop this before he beats her!!!".
Now I don’t know what you two talked about at the sessions, but what led your husband to the "strops"? Like was it when he was making demands that you and the MC thought hard? Or when you were making demands that the MC would have thought "normal"? I’m guessing the MC saw the signs...

The last "strop" was because I told him (during therapy) that I don’t want to be intimate with him at the moment due to the A and other issues in our relationship.

He then sulked, pouted, had an angry face and stayed quiet for the rest of the session ignoring both me and the therapist and refusing to engage except for the odd one word answers. My therapist seemed awkward as did I.

Everything that my MC said to me recently I am aware of. Both friends and family have also said the same negative things and I can also see the control, manipulation etc at play (sometimes.)

I am trying to get myself stronger to leave now I know R is not possible but I am scared of how he will react when he finds out I am not going to R.

You can be right in what you are saying and still be unprofessional.

I'm betting your MC was so unnerved by your WH that it was worth the risk.

I am trying to get myself stronger to leave now I know R is not possible but I am scared of how he will react when he finds out I am not going to R.

I don't have the experience with this sort of thing, but I think you should probably get all your ducks in a row without ever letting him know, if at all possible. I'm sorry if you've already answered this, but have you spoken with a solicitor yet? That's probably the best place to start.

I think my WH is a narcissist (although I hate that this word gets thrown about, so I don’t say it without really thinking it) - he really doesn’t feel empathy and certainly puts himself before anyone else amongst many other narc traits. But surely if a therapist doesn’t discover a personality disorder until later down the line they can’t just wash their hands of their clients just because of this?

Chelsea,

Yes, I do believe that the therapist was telling me that is what she would do. It was a long enough time ago that I can't recall the exact words, but I do have an impression from it. The therapist specifically mentioned Narcissistic Personality Disorder. I remember reading the DSM and a few articles and making a pro/con list for traits of my WH, past boyfriends, and a few others I thought might be NPD. I do not think my WH is NPD.

The therapist was trying to communicate, I think, that in order for couples or marital therapy to be effective, both parties need to show up with vulnerability, a genuine honesty, respect, and other qualities. NPD persons typically don't have these qualities, and therapy can make the situation worse especially for the non-NPD partner. Also, maybe that I would need to believe that my WS possesses those qualities and the ability to change for couple's therapy to work.

In your situation, I do believe this therapist would have confronted the WS with his behavior, stopped couples sessions, and told him that he needed individual help. She might have also asked the BS to follow up with a phone call or session. Both partners are clients in couple's therapy.

I think there's a powerful message to both parties if a therapist confronts a disrespectful or abusive or NPD spouse and shows their own personal boundary to stop therapy. Maybe it's a needless semantic argument, but that's different than telling the BS unprompted or unasked that they need should not reconcile.

BluerThanBlue has a point though. I don't know what a therapist does if they believe an action puts a person in harm's way. They must have an ethical code of conduct for that.

Our Mc (male, engaged to another woman, previous victim of affair by his ex wife) really wanted us to work things out, he said as a black person, it's nice to see black couples thrive since many blacks (african Americans specifically) families end up broken.
After 3 months, my ex husband wasn't showing signs of a good reconciliation person, I knew it, his family knew it, his BFF and mine knew it, my fam knew it, everyone knew it. So the therapist telling me I deserve better in the end was just another voice but I'm glad he did. It was too obvious even the therapist had to say I deserve better.
Once my divorce was finalized, 6-9 months after my last session with him, I sent him an email with an update and he wished me good luck - he wasn't hitting on me although I felt he respected me.
He also has 3 daughters and they are around my age, and he did say he wouldn't counsel his daughters to stay with a man like my ex husband whose words were not matching his actions and was making me do all the saving after he destroyed us.

I’m scared of him co parenting our children as he is neglectful and selfish (and can be a drunk who would no doubt drive with them in the car!)

Uh... this alone should inform your decisions about the whole situation. If the MC was picking up on stuff like this, it certainly merits his breach of professional conduct.

Also a reason to get sole custody.

I'm sure there are more, I just dove for the reply button as soon as I saw this one.

-Mindjob

I am trying to get myself stronger to leave now I know R is not possible but I am scared of how he will react when he finds out I am not going to R.

Please work carefully with your IC on your strategy for getting out safely.

Your post gave me chills. Years ago, a dear friend's husband cheated. They were in MC. At one point, the counselor told her that her husband wasn't R material because he was NPD and he wasn't willing to stop abusing her. He then told her he wasn't going to be there MC anymore, but she was more than welcome to come to him for IC and if she wasn't comfortable with that, he could provide a list of reputable IC. He strongly worded that she really needed to get out before more damage was done. She didn't listen. She stayed for another year and a half. In that year, I watched her become an empty shell. He made her alienate everyone who advocated for her until she was completely alone.
Your husband sounds as bad as hers was. BTW it took years before she was even close to her old self, and really, she didn't succeed at it.
Let me ask: would you want any of your children to end up with someone like your husband, their father, as a life partner? Think long and hard on what you would answer. Remember, you're demonstrating to your kids what is acceptable behavior to tolerate.

Since you are considering D, be sure to get support on the section of SI for divorcing and separation. The kind people there helped me every step of the way-before, during, and after D. I don’t think anyone on that section of SI ever wanted a divorce, they just eventually realized they and their children needed a better life.

In my experience it was hard on my children at first, but they have flourished now!!!!!Their Dad also moved out while I was figuring out what to do. It’s really a blessing in itself. When I started to stand up to him, he got drunk and caused drama. Something in me woke up and I told our kids that our property lines were our safe space from the whole world, and no one - including their Dad- was going to be allowed to mess that up.

Alanon helped me a lot! Since you said your concerns are about him drinking/driving with the children around and you won’t be able to protect them, I definitely recommend Alanon. You can do in person (and free) meetings or they have them on the phone. You can look on their website-you call an 800 number, then put in a code, and you are in the meeting. You don’t have to talk. It’s a total support group for anyone affected by drinking. They never tell you what to do, but the support and ideas to get strong are wonderful.

I wanted to R with my WS and keep our family together. But I knew our children and I could not go thru another affair, separation, etc. think about it-your WS and mine stopped MC because it was too expensive. Like wouldn’t it make more sense for our WS to get a second job and get everyone in counseling so our children grow up with their heads on straight? Also my WS wouldn’t do IC. That’s when I realized that a man who wouldn’t do anything to save his family wasn’t my kind of husband/father.

So here’s how I supported my children thru their Dad moving out and then us getting a divorce.

Do not let your WS move back in. You need the space to think.

I called the domestic violence center and told them my husband was emotional abusing me (smirking while you are in tears, cheating, etc), that I was trapped and I needed help. They said emotional abuse IS domestic violence. They got me in to see one of their counselors. Then that counselor brought my kids into counseling. This is important bc when the kids/dad/I had family counseling he used it against them. So now my kids had a safe space to work out their own feelings with the DV counselor.

The DV counselor told me it’s hard to leave an abusive marriage because there are so many good times intertwined with the bad, but unless my WS was getting intensive therapy, this cycle would go on. She taught my children that they cannot control another person, but they can have their own feeling, thoughts, and actions. (Ex: Dad called son when he was off at college and said "You only have time for me when you need help". Son calmly said, "Nope, I’ve never asked you for help after you wouldn’t help me figure out what was wrong with my car. You have been drinking and you don’t need to call me when you’re drinking. Goodbye". He hung up the phone and blocked Dads calls that night.

My sons went thru a lot with their Dad, but they had a safe space at our house. Also I became friends with a woman who’s husband had died leaving her with 2 children. She said she at least my kids can see their Dad, her kids could not see theirs., She said when her H died, she taught her children that no matter what happens in life, that it wasn’t always going to be easy, but that they can go on to have a good life and control what they can control.

Things might seem overwhelming at first, but just take it day by day, deal with 1 thing at a time. It’s not what you saw for your future when you had children, but you can give them a great childhood. Yeah their Dads going to do/say stupid stuff, but he’s gonna do that even if you stay married. Just deal with each situation as it comes up with the help of the wonderful people on SI.

And don’t let him back in the house. You and your kids need the space to breathe, regroup, and flourish.

[This message edited by homewrecked2011 at 2:50 PM, Sunday, May 19th]