SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

Hi everyone, I’m here because I’ve ruined my life, and I’ve realized I’m going to need support and encouragement on this recovery path. I’ll share my story so you’ll know where I’ve been, where I’m at, and to get more used to accountability.

My significant other "Fell" and I met in January 2014. We had a whirlwind relationship for reasons that include my handcore lovebombing of them. At the time, I thought that lovebombing was a normal thing all loving people do in the beginning of the relationship. We ended up having a lot of conflict. One aspect of our relationship that I really had a hard time with, and am currently still learning to handle better, is our different conflict styles. Once I’m fired up, I can’t stop. I insist on solving the problem right there. Fell is more reasonable. He needs some space to process before he’s ready to come back and discuss the issue. When Fell needs space, it drives me up a wall. It triggers my fear of abandonment and that’s something I haven’t learned to deal with in a mature way. I used my fear and loneliness to justify a LOT of bad behavior in our relationship. Boundary crossing, dismissiveness, guilt-tripping. And a one-night stand at 1 ½ years of the relationship. I disclosed this immediately, but in a minimizing way. I was also a TERRIBLE partner about this. For years I denied that the one night stand was really cheating. I used us fighting that night as an excuse. I was resistant to talking about it. I blamed Fell. I did nearly anything wrong that I could have done. It’s only been more recently that I’ve been able to admit and accept that this was cheating and my actions deeply hurt my partner.

We stayed together despite the one night stand, and soon I was pregnant. We had a child together, and I developed PPD/A. I turned into even more of a monster to live with, both to my partner and our baby. Fell was still committed to staying with me and helping me work through my issues. I was entitled and self-absorbed and basically gave a pathetic try before giving up. This created more distance with us.

In 2021, I had a coworker move into my office with me. Eventually this turned into a bit of [EDIT: This is me minimizing. It wasn't a bit of an emotional affair. It was an emotional affair.] an emotional affair. While neither of us ever admitted feelings, we texted or talked from the moment we woke up until we went to bed. I got a bit obsessed with this friend. I was constantly talking about them and trying to solve all of their problems. I had feelings too. Eventually, Fell confronted me about this in 2022. He said that it felt like I was having an emotional affair. Hearing this woke me up a little. I realized how unhealthy this friendship had gotten and told Fell I would pull back a lot on contact both at work and outside of work, and would go "no contact" after I quit that job in a few months for graduate school. Though I did slightly better in the aftermath of this affair than the one night stand, I failed a lot here too. I discussed it more with Fell as if it was only an unhealthy friendship that I accidentally fell into. This was true at the most shallow level, but I was still not willing to fully admit, to myself or Fell, how or why that happened. I didn’t admit that I was desperately lonely, that I was always looking for replacement people in my life because of my intense fear of being alone, and that I had developed feelings for this friend and it could have turned into a physical affair if the circumstances had been a bit different. I didn’t want to see that. Then, I ended up not going no contact after quitting as I said I would. Fell confronted me about this in the midst (unknowing to him) of the most recent affair, and I did a 180 on him. I denied it ever being an emotional affair or agreeing to go no contact. I fought him over and over again on it. When he asked for an apology, I gave a shitty sarcastic one. When he said it was a bad apology and gave an example of a good one, I obviously copied and pasted the "good" apology in a text to Fell. This was so hurtful and dismissive of me. I’m embarrassed that I acted so egotistical and immature.

Because of the emotional affair and our ongoing issues, Fell said he was unsure about buying a house together, or that I was emotionally mature enough for grad school. He was worried that, at the least, I’d make friends with really unhealthy people like usual or at worst, cheat. I convinced him it would be fine and guilted him into buying the house and supporting me with the decision to go to grad school. He relented. We’d agree that I’d immediately tell him if I noticed a crush for anyone else developing, be extremely cautious with making friends, and stay away from the opposite sex. I broke all of these agreements.

I started graduate school in August 2022. This is where I first met the affair partner "Roy", at a new student orientation. Over the first semester, we both became part of the same friend group. As the first year of school went on, I began texting him about non-school topics, pursuing a friendship with him individually outside of the friend group, though we never hung out one on one. I also noticed some feelings emerging, but tried to ignore them. I was ashamed that I had already started to develop a crush on someone in such a short amount of time. It wasn’t sexual - I don’t really find Roy attractive. He seemed nice and was desperate for attention. I was desperate for attention too. My relationship with Fell was slowly improving, but I still didn’t know how to handle the loneliness that was triggered when Fell needed space. I also saw Roy as someone easy to please. I felt like, "Now I know so much about being a good wife, but there’s so much baggage with Fell and I that I might not ever be able to be a good wife to him. Maybe I could be a good wife if I started over fresh with someone like Roy."

In April 2023, Roy and I were signed up to attend a school event together. It would be the first out of town, overnight trip I had taken alone in our relationship, except for one other time. It was also the first since the emotional affair. I didn’t know it at the time, but Fell was putting a lot of trust in me to go. Things had been steadily getting better for us for a while. We still had our conflict, but there was a deeper sense of closeness and commitment. Fell’s trust, sadly, was misplaced before I walked out the door. I intentionally didn’t bring up room arrangements with him because I didn’t want him to know I would be sharing a hotel room with a man, a huge no-no that I agreed to. One night on the trip, I went to a bar with Roy, another no-no. Roy then got me drunk and raped me. In my intoxication and shitty feelings, I didn’t really process what had happened. I thought that I must have consented and that it was my fault. After all, Roy wouldn’t do that. But he did. The night was the start of his emotional manipulation and tricks. Roy made me feel amazing and awful at the same time. I felt used, and I didn’t want to be used just because I was there and available. I wanted to be picked. None of that excuses how I reacted and the harm that I caused the people I love most. Roy didn’t make me have an affair. He may have pressured me at points, but I had Fell I could have went back to at any point. If after the rape I had called Fell and told him what happened immediately, he would have been there for me. Instead, when I saw Fell’s texts asking what was going on and where I was, I gaslit him to hide what had happened.

The next day we went home. I still didn’t tell Fell what had happened. I did continue the affair with Roy. In the beginning I pursued Roy mainly. He would alternate between lovebombing me and devaluing me, sometimes in the same conversation. The lovebombing felt so good. While I knew it wasn’t real and that Roy didn’t know me that well, it still was such a boost to my ego. The devaluing made me want to prove myself to him even more, to prove to him that I was "good enough". He would "break up" with me, only for one of us to rekindle things shortly after. At this point, it was easy to justify the affair. I told myself that I was always putting others first and that this was me putting myself first for once. I deserved this. Besides, I was really being selfless, because I wasn’t breaking up our family to be with someone else. Eck. What an entitled and immature mindset.

In May 2023 I went on a silent meditation retreat. This helped me start to pull my head out of my ass, It also marked a turning point in the affair. I broke up with Roy after the retreat, which he yelled at and guilt tripped me for. I gave in to his bullying and went back on going NC after breakup, so of course the affair soon resumed. Still from this point on, I was more avoidant about meeting up and was the one breaking off the affair, even though it was still on and off, or at least pausing the physical aspect. I couldn’t see what I was doing as justifiable or selfless. It was selfish, I was lying every day, and I was not being the person that I wanted to be. I knew better. But I was so "in love" with Roy that I kept coming back, or letting him back in, or "breaking up" but not going no contact.

In July 2023, I broke up with Roy again and we blocked each other’s numbers (or I blocked his). I stuck with this until August 2023 when school resumed. The affair soon resumed again, though from this point on there wasn’t much physical contact. We had sex once and made out other times, but most of this semester was spent either NC or "just friends". In September, I went over to Roy’s house to have sex but changed my mind because I didn’t want to have sex with anyone behind Fell’s back anymore. I told Roy if he cared about me, he would not let us resume a sexual relationship at all. Carrying on an affair was pushing me to a breakdown. He agreed at the time, but repeatedly pushed this boundary as time went on.In November, I told Roy that Fell and I were considering opening up our relationship, and Roy and I kissed. Fell and I didn’t, but for a while Roy and I considered behind Fell’s back how to help Fell be more comfortable and open up to the idea. When I think about this conspiring now against the person I love most in the world, I feel so gross.

In December 2024, Roy and I were "just friends". I had a really bad time with the guilt of the affair, not having friends to hang out with as much when we were NC since we had the same friend group, feelings about the rape that I didn’t know what to do with, etc. He noticed I wasn’t doing well and offered to meet up to talk about it. I agreed, but was only willing to meet in a public place. I suggested we go for a walk. He offered to pick me up and I accepted. He tricked me instead into going to his house where he attempted to rape me again. A few days later was discovery/disclosure. Fell knew something was up and asked me about it. Until that moment, Fell and I were in the best place we had ever been. We were bonding a lot, planning the future together after graduation, and learning more about each other. The secret of the affair was this big barrier to the intimacy we wanted that I only knew about it. Now Fell knows.

The first week we barely slept or ate, but I was there for Fell in a way that I never came close to before. Then I picked a fight and played the victim and damaged the raw intimacy we were sharing. We continued to try reconciliation but I backslid multiple times. I was defensive, argumentative, impatient, and didn’t try to listen at points.For a while, we weren’t in reconciliation at all.. The plan was to make living together as tolerable as possible either until our son was grown or we couldn’t give him a home together anymore. Recently, Fell has started saying, "I love you" again (which I didn’t think would ever happen a few weeks ago) and been more affectionate. He gave me an EXCELLENT birthday this weekend. I was so spoiled. Fell hasn’t said out loud that we’re back to reconciling yet, but I think we are. Part of me is afraid to ask though. I don’t want him to feel pressured to make a commitment either way when things are still pretty fresh.

Fell helped me to see the rape and attempted rape for what they were, though I take responsibility for the consensual acts that I engaged in and the lies that I told leading up to it. He encouraged me to file a police report and a Title IX complaint. The DA dismissed the case, but Title IX is ongoing. I’m taking a leave from school to deal with the fallout and get in a healthy place so I don’t keep doing the destructive things I’ve been doing all my life. I’ve dropped all my friends who knew of the affair and either kept it from Fell or encouraged it. So I don’t have friends now. I am attending therapy and support groups.

I love Fell. I want to spend the rest of my life with him. I’ve never had the intimacy with anyone else that I have with him. No one could ever know me like he does. He’s extremely intelligent, smart, funny, interesting, has an amazing sense of taste, the best cook, super adventurous…I could go on. I don’t want to lose him, and I don’t want our child to lose his home and his family. I deeply regret the affair and the ways that I have backslid in reconciliation. This process has revealed to me that I have a lot of deep seated issues. The affair isn’t one stain on a lifetime of honesty and integrity. Recovery isn’t what I thought it would be before discovery - Fell processing their feelings and us moving on eventually - it’s about me seeing that the affair was part of a larger pattern of behavior and the underlying beliefs powering it. I’m the one who has to do the work of healing, not Fell. Part of me is afraid that I don’t have what it takes to help Fell heal. I read the lists of what an unfaithful partner should know or do to help their partner heal, and it takes such emotional strength and maturity. I want to give that to Fell. He deserves it. I’m worried I can’t do it though. If I was strong and emotionally mature, then I wouldn’t have had an affair in the first place. I’m posting this so others know my story and in hopes to get help and support from others who have been there. Some things I specifically was looking for insight on is:

1. Have you ever had to deal with something like Title IX or a criminal case post affair, that brought up reminders of the affair or affair partner for a while after NC? If so, how did you deal?

2. How do you deal with the triggers and lingering feelings for the affair partner?

3. Can affairs be traumatizing for the unfaithful partner? I feel traumatized, besides the sexual assaults. Not to say that my pain is anywhere like my partners, at all. He had no consent in this at all. I made a shitty choice knowing it was a shitty choice. It’s worse for him.

4. How long and detailed was your written timeline?

5. Did you have difficulties remembering things to make the timeline? If so, what has helped? I don’t want to lie to Fell, and have already had to go back and correct things because I forgot things that were important about the affair. I don’t want to lie or trickle truth. I also have a poor memory. I’m worried that I’m going to unintentionally contradict myself and make things more confusing and hurtful for Fell.

6. What do you do when you start feeling yourself get lazy with recovery?

7. Should I talk to Fell about if we’re in reconciliation or just go with the flow until he is ready to clarify where he is to me?

8. Any tips for dealing with the pain of loneliness or fear of abandonment when your partner needs space or doesn’t know how they feel about the relationship long term?

9. How did you become the person who could be a supportive partner to your hurt spouse after the affair, given that you probably didn’t have those qualities before the affair?

10. Did you ever seriously mess up reconciliation and later on recover and still heal your relationship? How?

General advice or insights are also appreciated. I’ve never been in this place before and there’s no ground to rest on. I don’t know what’s going to happen, if I know what I’m doing, if I’m still going to have my family tomorrow, but I know that I can’t do this alone.

[This message edited by morted at 11:27 AM, Friday, March 29th]

Hello and welcome to the worst club any of us could ever join. You've been through a lot and I'm glad to read you're in IC and seeking help withmsupport groups too. I have experience with 12-step programs and there is great power to heal when meeting with others who have been through it too.

I will try to answer some of your questions from my experience. You can read the condensed version of my story by clicking on my profile.

1 and 2 seem to go together. I can't help from the legal perspective, but I no longer think much about any of my APs (affair partners). Early in R (reconciliation), it was very difficult. What helped me was talking through the feelings with my therapist and honestly telling my BW (betrayed wife) that I was struggling. Sharing those struggles brought us closer together and gradually pushed the memories into indifference, which is the ultimate goal. I recently found out that one of my former APs had gotten remarried. I simply wished her and her new husband well and went about my life.

3. Affairs are like any other relationship in many ways. We bond with our APs, emotionally and physically. The end of an affair can be very traumatic. That trauma can lead us into another affair (raising my hand here) and also into other destructive behaviors if not dealt with in IC. I had to acknowledge my pain as well as my BW's to move forward.

4 and 5. My BW did not ask for a written timeline until about 3 years into R. I gave her as much detail as I could while respecting her wishes as far as how much she wanted. I also discussed with her the fact that it is the best I could do with my memory at that time, with the caveat that if there was honestly more that I remembered later, I would share it with her immediately. That was not an excuse to deliberately withhold anything. I also have a lot of remorse over not writing a timeline while everything was still fresh, in the eventuality that she would want one later.

6. There will be up and down days. There will be days that the last thing you want to discuss/work on is the A. You will have thoughts of "When will he/she get over this???" You will be tired and frustrated by having to answer the same questions repeatedly. It's all part of the process and you will eventually get to a point where you can give yourself some grace for having those thoughts and feelings. The things I did were read posts on SI, read/re-read a good book like How to Help Your Spouse Heal From Your Affair, and simply share with my BW how I was feeling. Are you noticing a pattern here?

7. Listening to our BS is one of the most important things we can ever do. And it is ok to ask them if you're unsure of where things stand. Just be prepared to accept their answer with humility. The hardest hump I had to get over was knowing that my BW could throw in the towel at any time, but that I still had to do the work of recovery for me so I could be a safe person and partner in the future, regardless of us still being married.

8. This was a tough one for me in the early going. I am definitely the "fixer" type too, which also meant that I was continuing to put myself ahead of her and stomp all over her boundaries. Giving her space and keeping my big mouth shut went a long way to helping us. I was just too thick and self-absorbed to see it at first.

9. Hard, hard work in IC, where I learned how to communicate and open up to the person I vowed to love, honor,and cherish. And where I learned to love and forgive myself in a healthy way.

10. R is a living thing. It will be ongoing for the rest of my life, again regardless of whether or not we stay married. None of this has gone perfectly and I continue to step all over myself at times. The difference is now I know how to handle things better, I have a great support system who are willing to tell me like it is out of a place of love, and I own up to my mis-steps honestly.

You asked some great questions and your post has helped me a great deal today! Please keep posting and sharing. There are some incredible former WS here who I'm sure will be along to offer much more than I can. Keep doing the work because you are worth it.

You become a supportive partner by giving Fell an amicable divorce. We waywards set our lives on fire, then, try a half way repair job. I did the same thing to my ex-W. Luckily, she wasn't buying it and divorced me. I was in my early 20s then. Now that I am 45+ years removed from it, her divorcing me was the best thing she did for her and I.

[This message edited by atomic_mess at 2:47 AM, Thursday, March 28th]

AtomicMess. I see you on a lot of threads claiming your wife divorcing you was the best thing for her and you. But you don’t seem to have moved on in 45 years or have taken care of your issues. How is that the best thing for you? Have you considered IC?

Morted
Of your spouse needs space to process the best thing to do is to call a time out and have an agreed upon time to bring it back up. That way you know you are coming back to it and he can take the time he needs. For me the time out is 30 minutes but it’s really up to your BH to determine that

1. I have no advice
2. Individual counselling. Which you are going to need
3. Yes
4. Mine was 28 pages single spaced 9 font. It had everything I could remember including all the emails. Your BH deserves as much as he wants. Lots of people suggest writing 1 coles notes and 1 detailed. This will help you as well as you can see where your ability to make choices are flawed. This will help with the counselling and your whys
5. 17 years passed between my affair and making a timeline. We rugswept it badly. I used calendars, work schedules, key dates I knew or my BH knew. Anything I could get my hands on. Never say it’s finished. It will never be finished. You will always remember some detail you didn’t include. Talk to your spouse when you do remember them.
6. I’m a little worried that you used the term lazy. Sometimes I get tired, this is a marathon. Between the books I’m reading, the IC, trying to rebuild our relationship there is much to do. When I’m tired I lean more into snuggling.
7. Just talk to him, bring up the affair, he’s probably thinking about it anyways. If he keeps talking he’s still trying
8. IC is going to help you with that. You need to be comfortable with yourself before he’s going to feel like you can be a safe partner
9. IC, reading everything I could get my hands on, talking to my BH, finding out his pain points and reading on what I could do to help with those, finally dealing with my childhood trauma which is still a work in progress
10. Twice. The first time was the 17 year rugsweep. It is seriously by the grace of God he stayed with me without dealing with it. The second time after he couldn’t deal with it anymore and we started actually trying to recover I lied. I knew it was a lie as soon as it left my mouth. He knew it was a lie. And I dug my heels in on it. It was the closest we have ever come to divorce. So after I dug myself a nice deep hole there was no where to go up. So I confessed, knowing it put us back to square one with no trust. Now all I have is time to prove I can be a good wife and partner to him. I had started building new trust by sharing everything I could remember that he hadn’t known for 17 years. They weren’t big things but they were the details that helped him stop building a different narrative in his mind. 1 lie destroyed all that building. My advice and the advice so often given here. You let go of the outcome and give him the whole truth. It’s the only real way forward and he can decide he can deal with it or not.

I want to offer a different perspective than what is typically present here on SI.

As you pointed out, I say it was the best thing because the ex-W actually had the fortitude to pull the plug on the marriage. I wouldn't have. I say it was the best thing because it was. I was very much wayward in my thinking in those days. If my wife hadn't divorced me, I may have stayed with her and continued to cheat. My cheating was the death knell as it is for most couples.

I spent 1 year while separated and through our divorce in another relationship. I cheated on her as well. Then, I spent the next 3-4 years pretty much single having multiple short-term causal relationships.

I met the lovely woman that would become my wife 4-5 years after my divorce was final. She made me be a better man. I was ready by then for a true monogamous relationship as well. We have been together 40+ years in a loving monogamous relationship.

Plain and simply, you can't undo the cheating with a sorry and wipe away the disrespect you showed your spouse.

1. Have you ever had to deal with something like Title IX or a criminal case post affair, that brought up reminders of the affair or affair partner for a while after NC? If so, how did you deal?

Can't speak to the legal side on this. This is a tricky situation overall because part of pursuing this will require that you dedicate time and energy to the actions of your AP. I would by no means try to discourage you from trying to get some justice for what he did to you, but at the same time, seriously ask yourself if the juice is worth the squeeze. What are your expectations of this Title IX situation and what do you hope to get out of it? Again, it is very complicated and only you can answer these questions I'm not dismissing your pursuit of some justice and certainly, I'm not advocating for your AP who sexually violated you to get off scot-free, but if your goal is to be NC and to move on from him, this certainly muddies up the water. I mean, it is understandable, that he hurt you and violated your person in unspeakable ways, an injustice which does need to be addressed, but in the overall picture for you and your spouse, there is a cost to you both, so you both must decide how much you are willing to pursue it versus how it will serve your long-term interests. I do not mean to sound flippant or dismissive of the allegations of sexual assault/rape, because that is not where this is coming from, but rather making sure you ask yourselves the tough questions about what you hope to get out of this and how it will impact you all going forward, especially if continued contact or continued energy and time dedicated to the AP is harmful to your recovery. You are between a rock and a hard place on that one, no doubt about it.

2. How do you deal with the triggers and lingering feelings for the affair partner?

One thing that helped me a lot was seeing the AP for who they were and not the person that I wanted them to be, aka the person that I built them up to be in my head. There are a couple of different approaches here, but I will try and stick with one that may help, although they are all kind of similar. I know you are a bit down in the dumps about lack of a social circle at this time, but for argument's sake, let's say that a close friend or family member was telling you the story about your AP...would you see the AP as anything more than a total scumbag? I mean, just the fact alone that he was willing to pursue and continue pursuing a relationship with a married woman makes him a massive piece of trash, add on the fact that he has repeatedly sexually assaulted you...makes him a scumbag extraordinaire on another level. If this friend was telling you the same exact fact patterns as you laid out here, you would be advising that friend to run and never look back, because the AP was a freaking psychopath. Our APs are just mirrors and while the relationship we have with them has all the tenets of a regular relationship, there is nothing really there, it is all a construct of our wayward mind. Your AP never loved you, because simply put, you do not commit such heinous acts of sexual violence against someone you love. I don't say these things to hurt you or kick you while you are down (because you are certainly that), but to kind of jar you from the mindset that the AP was worth pining over at this late of a date.

I think you need to put the relationship with the AP into proper context and see him for who he truly is, instead of who you built him up to be. Early on in your post, you said you saw him as someone you could "be a good wife with" and imagine you were in the future with him and your hypothetical grandkids ask "Granny, how did you and Grandpa fall in love?" and you have to tell them the story about how he sexually assaulted you on a school trip...Yeah...he is not a good man in any universe and you would be best served to dissuade yourself of that notion ASAP for your own healing sake.

3. Can affairs be traumatizing for the unfaithful partner? I feel traumatized, besides the sexual assaults. Not to say that my pain is anywhere like my partners, at all. He had no consent in this at all. I made a shitty choice knowing it was a shitty choice. It’s worse for him.

Affairs are absolutely trauma for both wayward and betrayed partners alike. In fact, the first person you betrayed in this whole thing wasn't your husband, it was yourself. That does not come without a cost, although, we spend the whole affair trying to chase that trauma and pain away, it is always there. This is also where the adage "hurt people, hurt others" comes into play and you betrayed yourself, hurt yourself, and then went down the path of destruction to hurt others in the wake. That is not to absolve you of any responsibility for your affair but rather to realize that you do have a significant amount of healing that you need to do to ever become a healthy partner.

There is a great therapist on TikTok, Dr Kathy Nickerson (@drkathynickerson), who has some interesting video series on wayward and betrayed healing, she also talks about a lot of the recent research into affairs and wayward behaviors, I think it might be insightful for you, as I'm four years into recovery, having been an active member here and elsewhere, I think that she has some thought-provoking videos that can help you on your healing journey.

4. How long and detailed was your written timeline?

I never did a written timeline of my affairs or my wife's affairs, so I cannot offer much help there. While we certainly did discuss timelines and events from both of our affairs, we never formally sat down and wrote a timeline

5. Did you have difficulties remembering things to make the timeline? If so, what has helped? I don’t want to lie to Fell, and have already had to go back and correct things because I forgot things that were important about the affair. I don’t want to lie or trickle truth. I also have a poor memory. I’m worried that I’m going to unintentionally contradict myself and make things more confusing and hurtful for Fell.

You've been lying to yourself and everyone else for a long time. In fact, probably the most eye-opening thing of my healing was realizing how much I liked to keep the peace with people (see people pleasing) and how I always wanted to make myself sound great, there were all sorts of lies I would tell to everyone, not just my spouse. I committed to myself that I was not going to lie to people anymore and in fact, it has made me a stickler for details and timelines. A silly example, my wife and I purchased a home in July 2022, the master bathroom came equipped with this fancy rain-style showerhead, which over time we both came to loathe because it felt like we had no water pressure, making rinsing out shampoo a nightmare. So, last Saturday morning, I was running errands and stopped by the store to replace it. To make a long story short, in the process of replacing the showerhead, I had to go back to the store and get another part because I found a rusted-out part that needed to be replaced, so now two trips to the store and more cost. My wife had been at work during this time and when she came home, used the new shower (wife approval factor 10/10), I was lounging on the bed playing my PS5, she asked me "how much did this new shower cost?" and I said, I don't know, the part was like $15 and the showerhead was around $100, so about that much. I then proceeded to hand my wife my phone and told her, I have email copies of the receipts, or the real ones are downstairs by my billfold. She was able to confirm that my recollection was high by less than $2 . It was by all admissions, a very low-stakes conversation, she was approving of the change and appreciative I made it, but her mind immediately went to how much and I had nothing to hide and no reason to lie, I was honest with her that I didn't exactly know the cost, because well, she knows me and I told her that I remember looking at a couple of different models before narrowing down to the one I selected and that the prices were kind of in that $100 ballpark but since I had other errands to run, I wasn't sitting there dwelling on the exact dollar figure.

The switch in being honest and open is a tough one, but a very important one for you in your journey. I used a low-stakes example, but being honest about what you remember, what context clues you can remember about the events demonstrate a commitment to honesty. Our memories are not as straightforward as we would like to think they are like a 24/7 video recording of everything in our lives. I mean, I'm sure we can all think of a certain song that reminds us of a time, place or person (or all of the above) or maybe that smell of cookies baking in the oven reminds you of your youth. You probably remember a lot more details than you think if you try to remember things like clothing choices, perfume choices, food choices, like maybe you were with AP and you went to this place that had great margaritas and you shared a guacamole and you had Al Pastor tacos and thinking of it in that context (a totally made up context) helps you remember other parts of that event or meet up.

The important part will be letting your spouse know that you are trying to remember details and also showing him what details you actually do remember and being honest about details that you are fuzzy about.

6. What do you do when you start feeling yourself get lazy with recovery?

Double down and lean into it harder. What do you mean by lazy?

7. Should I talk to Fell about if we’re in reconciliation or just go with the flow until he is ready to clarify where he is to me?

If I may speak frankly, after reading your post, I think this highlights something that has been a struggle your whole relationship, there are a lot of unspoken things in your relationship, which leads to the distance between you. Even just the way you ask these questions shows that you are a bit avoidant in your attachment style. I get it, you seem to see things going a certain way, but you are also petrified of speaking to him about it for fear that he may not be seeing it the same as you, and so you do not know if you are on the same page, and in your mind, you often take that to mean that you aren't on the same page here when in reality, you do not know. I know I'm way oversimplifying this, but wouldn't it just be easier to ask the question and have the answer on solid ground, rather than playing the "does he think we are in R or not?" game in your head?

8. Any tips for dealing with the pain of loneliness or fear of abandonment when your partner needs space or doesn’t know how they feel about the relationship long term?

This honestly seems like an issue you've struggled with your whole life and it also may speak to the different attachment styles you both bring to this relationship. In a relationship, there are going to be ebbs and flows, times when your partner will be a little more distant than others. You will need to rewire your brain to understand that distance does not necessarily equal being unsafe or unstable in the relationship. This may very well be linked to something or someone in your upbringing who made you feel the need for constant reassurance. That is honestly why you seek out affairs, because they are a way to seek that external validation when what you really need is a strong internal validation system.

9. How did you become the person who could be a supportive partner to your hurt spouse after the affair, given that you probably didn’t have those qualities before the affair?

Through growth and change for myself more than anything else. I was tired of living a life of lies, tired of living with the threat of my AP sending a text message or calling me while my wife was around or holding my phone. I wanted to live authentically and be who I really am and to stop hiding who I am from the whole world. I had a tough transition, I was a former college athlete, so I was mostly known for my athletic prowess and that brought me a certain level of attention and external validation that when it was gone, I struggled with knowing who I really was for a good while as I transitioned into being a husband and father, I was a mess. I always was a massive nerd, but I hid myself from my wife because I didn't know if she could handle the fact that I'm a Trekkie, a sports junkie and a Chemist. Sure, my wife knew about some of those things, but it wasn't until I was finally ready to show her and the whole world my nerdom that I was able to be a better partner and father.

10. Did you ever seriously mess up reconciliation and later on recover and still heal your relationship? How?

I struggled to give you any good feedback on this one, which is not to say that I haven't flubbed R at times. My wife and I are madhatters, which adds layers of complexity to R that more traditional WS/BS pairs don't have to circumnavigate, but sure, we've lost our shit on each other, yelled at each other, slept in separate rooms for a night or two because one was mad at the other. One of the things that our R has taught us, as we worked with a therapist, is how to disagree and have an argument. I guess it depends on what you mean by messing up R. I went NC with my EA AP in December 2019, but the bitch was persistent and she found a way around it a couple of times and reached out to either myself or my wife for about 7 months after NC. Did that mess up R? Not really, but it certainly brought us back to my A when we didn't want to revisit that topic. The difference being that as soon as I saw a text from an unknown number, I didn't hide the contact, I went directly to my wife and told her that we need to handle this together. By doing it that way, I showed that I get how damaging the my EA was and how I want to take a different approach going forward.

Plain and simply, you can't undo the cheating with a sorry and wipe away the disrespect you showed your spouse.

I don’t see reconciliation that way at all. I have no doubt that what happened with you was best. It sounds like you were very immature and not ready for marriage. An apology without changed behavior is manipulation. This of us who have reconciled went through a very long nuanced process in which we didn’t just try and fix the relationship. We knew the problem was within ourselves and that’s where the most dramatic changes occurred.

However, I agree this situation is probably more like yours. There is a lot of emotional immaturity contributing to this and I do think that divorce might be the best option where the amount of change needed sounds almost insurmountable.

So to the original poster, here are some thoughts. One, this shouldn’t just be fixed by staying away from the opposite sex. There are a lot of boundaries missing from your behaviors that need to authentically be grown, tended to by you. Just staying away is not going to do it because you don’t have the fundamental values behind that. Second, You are asking some good questions. Regardless of what happens with this marriage you need to keep addressing these issues or you will never have the things you truly want from a relationship such as true connection.

You haven’t ruined your life. You just need to focus on who you want to be.

I absolutely do think we can traumatize ourselves with our own behavior. I do think you are correct it’s nothing like the trauma you have caused the other person. Keep working on you. It maybe too late for this relationship (time will tell) but it’s not too late for you. You have a lot of life left to live.

The biggest thing is getting to the bottom of this neediness/fear of abandonment that you have. I think you have ventured into a very grown up relationship without being ready by becoming a whole person first. A whole person sees a relationship as an enhancement to one’s life, and not their whole life. So there is big work to do here.

As for mitigating the lingering feelings, can you switch schools? Or programs or classes? You need to have zero contact with the AP. Zero.

[This message edited by hikingout at 1:49 AM, Friday, March 29th]

hikingout, as typical, a good post. You stated clearly what I was thinking about OP's situation.

Thank you everyone, even atomic's, replies. I appreciate the mix of honesty and compassion in this forum. My friends in the past have been supportive in the sense that they want to help me feel better, but what I need is support to be, and this work requires feeling bad at points. I seriously harmed the people closest to me and affected so many other people in the periphery. I shouldn't feel ok with myself because what I did wasn't ok and making amends will probably take years if possible. This has all given me a lot to think about. And cry about. I promise to respond to all of you in time.

Skip,

I've been going to a few different 12 step meetings, and today was my first SAA meeting. I can see how it can be beneficial to be long term and am hoping to find a sponsor soon. Saying I was three months affair free was a mix of feelings. On one hand, I was proud that I had gone so long without contacting Roy or falling into another affair, but then I also felt ashamed because plenty of people go their whole lives without having an affair with no issues.

I read the How to Help Your Spouse Heal From Your Affair book in the early days and have reread it a few times. Thank you for reminded me to do the reread that I was planning on doing today too.

1 and 2 seem to go together. I can't help from the legal perspective, but I no longer think much about any of my APs (affair partners). Early in R (reconciliation), it was very difficult. What helped me was talking through the feelings with my therapist and honestly telling my BW (betrayed wife) that I was struggling. Sharing those struggles brought us closer together and gradually pushed the memories into indifference, which is the ultimate goal. I recently found out that one of my former APs had gotten remarried. I simply wished her and her new husband well and went about my life

That's extremely generous of your wife. Fell has said that he doesn't want to hear about my feelings about the affair partner at the time but that he understood it would be a process and I could ask him for a hug when I was struggling. My main outlet has been therapy and for the angry feelings, sexual assault support group.

The hardest hump I had to get over was knowing that my BW could throw in the towel at any time, but that I still had to do the work of recovery for me so I could be a safe person and partner in the future, regardless of us still being married.

This is a hard pill to swallow. I can accept that I need to work on myself for reasons beyond the relationship, but that this relationship isn't the one thing that I can depend on anymore is destabilizing.

This was a tough one for me in the early going. I am definitely the "fixer" type too, which also meant that I was continuing to put myself ahead of her and stomp all over her boundaries. Giving her space and keeping my big mouth shut went a long way to helping us. I was just too thick and self-absorbed to see it at first.

I could have written this. I am also the fixer type. I want to rush in and make it all better! But that's about my own anxiety and insecurity, not my love for Fell. Today has been a tougher day. We spent the night together, but this morning he's been in his room and not responding to me. Normally I'd be sending him a bunch of texts. Today after I got back from dropping our son off at school I texted asking if he wanted my company and that was it. I've doing my own thing instead, working on the timeline, cleaning, attending meetings, and reading this forum. Part of me keeps wanting to text asking if he wants to talk or to say "I'm here" but I feel like if he wanted to talk, he'd probably respond to me.

It's interesting, because in these moments is usually when romantic feelings for Roy start coming back. That isn't coming up today. My thoughts have been on repair work and other things. I don't feel indifferent yet. When I think of Roy, there's some anger coming up, and that's still a connection Hopefully that he's not constantly on my mind right now and not in a romantic way is a good sign.

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Atomic,

Thank you for your honest perspective. I do sometimes fear that this is the best course of action. Unfortunately, separating and moving out of our home would very likely make all of us homeless, including our child. Ending the affair has ended my source of income until next year, and we're on welfare. Fell has said before he would rather live together while our son is in the home so we could continue providing him with some stability, then separate after. Recently though, he starting saying he loved me again and being more affectionate. Even if I could, leaving him when he still wants me feels like another betrayal and heartbreak for him. I think what he wants is to see that I'm worth it to him to do the hard work and not give up over an extended period, like a year+.

Congratulations on your recovery and healthy current relationship. That's inspiring. Do you feel like you're now someone who could never cheat, or like you could have another affair but you have all these tools and skills to keep you from seeking out another one?

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Champion,

Of your spouse needs space to process the best thing to do is to call a time out and have an agreed upon time to bring it back up. That way you know you are coming back to it and he can take the time he needs. For me the time out is 30 minutes but it’s really up to your BH to determine that

I've brought up that idea before pre-affair, about discussing issues generally. I'm paraphrasing, but for Fell, when he's feeling overwhelmed or needs to figure out what he's feeling, he doesn't know how long it's going to need. Deadlines make him feel more anxious and then he can't figure anything out or regulate. Thirty minutes is rare and very short for him. He usually needs longer. Right now it's more complicated, because for him once he's done processing he might realize that he's feeling disgust/anger/hatred and doesn't want to be around me. It's been an emotional roller coaster for both of us. Needing space to process things and decide how to express what's coming up for him has been something I knew since the very beginning of our relationship. For almost all of our years together, I didn't respect Fell's process, and by extension him. I steamrolled his boundaries and demanded he talk with me, which almost always turned into an explosive argument. It took me nearly ten years to figure out that he needs me to sit outside his walls and wait patiently for him to be ready. Being able to do that consistently is taking longer.

1 coles notes

I've never heard that phrase. Is that like the cliff notes version, very brief with little detail? Fell's already asked for a write up with all the details. I'm trying to recover the older deleted messages but I have all the discord messages from the last chapter of the affair that I'll add when I get their. That's going to be like 50 pages by itself. I'm at page 4 already and I'm only on day 2 of the actual affair. I did start the timeline months earlier when I first met Roy to show how things moved the way they did.

I’m a little worried that you used the term lazy. Sometimes I get tired, this is a marathon. Between the books I’m reading, the IC, trying to rebuild our relationship there is much to do. When I’m tired I lean more into snuggling.

Snuggling with your wife I assume?

I use lazy but maybe complacent is the correct term. When I've tried in the past to do major self work, I would start out motivated, but if I didn't find resources right away or felt they weren't helpful, I'd sort of resign myself and give up. Or just fall back into autopilot. Or I'll "try to be better", convinced that all I have to do is just make the right choice when I know what is it. The underlying belief is that I just need to be disciplined and make the right choice. So I fail and I'm like, "I'll make the right choice next time since I know what it is." But I didn't address the underlying issues so I just set myself up for failure.

A recent example occurred with reconciliation. I got busy and wasn't able to make meetings and do as much work, but when the busy period was over, I didn't go back to reading and working on affair specific recovery as hard as I should have. I went back on autopilot. After a few weeks I "woke up" and gave myself a kick in the pants. This past week I've been revving back up.

My advice and the advice so often given here. You let go of the outcome and give him the whole truth. It’s the only real way forward and he can decide he can deal with it or not.

I'm working on that. I'm not intentionally hiding the truth on anything, I don't think. I'm putting everything I remember into the timeline and checking with all of the records. Letting go of the outcome is hard. I'm trying to be really careful about minimizing anything. I've thought about asking someone to read it when I was done to look for any minimizing or blame shifting, but that seems like a lot to ask.

--

Bor,

1. I have definitely thought this about the Title IX process. Fell was the one who initially encouraged me to file a complaint and to keep it going. At times I want to drop it. It's tiring and triggering. But it seems comforting to Fell that I'm doing this. It is putting a pretty big chasm between Roy and I. For one, the school issued a mutual no-contact order (which is illegal but its' still there) so contacting him could result in my suspension from school. Plus, I doubt he has warm and fuzzy feelings with trying to put him in prison and trying to get him expelled.

Roy is supposed to graduate in May. Then he'll be a social worker working with vulnerable woman and children in CWS, and after he plans to pursue licensure to become a therapist. I think unrepentant rapists shouldn't be social workers or therapists, so I feel a bigger responsibility than just to myself to at least attempt to have him face consequences. Unfortunately, at this point, if he were expelled, it wouldn't be until after graduation, so it might not actually affect him in any real way. Because of that, I've switched to informal resolution. This means that we're trying to go back and forth and agree upon terms. Then punishment would be effective immediately and not some lip service after graduation. So far the process hasn't required me to be in contact with him. I'm emailing the coordinator who acts as a go between. I was offered the chance to sit down and have a face to face meeting. To be honest, as a survivor, that would have been the option that I chose. I wanted to opportunity to confront him directly and he have to face what he did. I wanted him to look me in the eye and apologize. I wanted to be able to read his tone and body language to see if he was really repentant before deciding what punishment was acceptable. But more than than I want Fell to be safe. I want to be a person of integrity. So I told Fell about it, and all the options. He said the one he was most comfortable with was no communication at all except through the go between. I knew that would be his choice, and I thought it would be harder on me to let go of what I wanted. But as soon as I asked and he gave me his answer, I felt at peace with it. I knew that I was finally making choices that I could live with. Any benefit of secretly confronting Roy would have paled in comparison of having another secret to hide after everything that had already happened. I completely shattered Fell's heart already. It's like I stabbed him repeatedly. I don't want to do that again, and if that means eating with a spoon for the rest of my life, that's fine with me.

2. Thank you for this truth here. You're completely correct. He neither loved nor respected me, never did. I think the feelings lingered for a while because I felt like, "He's a POS rapists and I'm a POS adultress, so maybe I should be with him." Or, "He just needs me to help him learn to be better." That's why I'm going to Codependents Anon meetings now. I'm referring back to your reply if feelings ever start creeping back.

In fact, the first person you betrayed in this whole thing wasn't your husband, it was yourself.

I bawled like a baby when I read this. It seems that I haven't fully accepted the pain and betrayal I put myself through. I don't want to seem like the whiny one. This is my fault after all. I did this. Everyone else hurt by it was completely innocent. They had no choice in if I had an affair or not. We even got a puppy during the affair a few months before discovery. She was the symbol of our long term commitment to each other, as this summer Fell seriously committed to working on our issues in the relationship. I told myself that I was committing too, but I was still having an affair. The day after we adopted the puppy, I brought her to meet Roy. After Fell learned this, he couldn't take being around the puppy anymore. And with everything going on in the immediate aftermath, we could barely take care of ourselves let alone a highly energetic puppy. It was my tasks to return her to the shelter where we adopted her. I've never done that before. It might be the hardest thing that I ever had to do in my life. I feel so awful every time I think about it. That poor puppy had a family who loved her and cared for her, then all of a sudden they didn't, then she finds herself back in the shelter with none of her siblings. She was a great dog, just needed training like all puppies. She didn't deserve that. Next to that, how can I really complain?

But what you said also reminded me of something Fell said to me earlier in reconciliation. He said something about me not seeming bothered by what I had lost. I said something about not feeling like a right to complain when everyone else has lost more than me. He said something like, "I think you need to accept how much you've lost because of this. You did loose the most out of all of us. You're not graduating in May, you lost your paid internship that was really good for you, your professional reputation, your dog, your friends - including your best friend from childhood, my lifelong commitment to you, any chance of having another baby together while we're still young enough." I still don't feel like I have a right to grief on some level. Shame and guilt and disgust but not grief.

5. Your level of integrity is admirable. I've learned from this that the little lies really matter. If I can tell little lies, I can tell big lies. I'm working on lying less but sometimes they slide out of my mouth. I also realized through this that I'm a total people pleaser. I didn't want to admit that about myself. It feels so weak and yucky. But I want people to like me even if I don't like them. I say yes when I want to say no. I keep in contact with people that I should cut out to not hurt them.

6. I use lazy but maybe complacent is the correct term. When I've tried in the past to do major self work, I would start out motivated, but if I didn't find resources right away or felt they weren't helpful, I'd sort of resign myself and give up. Or just fall back into autopilot. Or I'll "try to be better", convinced that all I have to do is just make the right choice when I know what is it. The underlying belief is that I just need to be disciplined and make the right choice. So I fail and I'm like, "I'll make the right choice next time since I know what it is." But I didn't address the underlying issues so I just set myself up for failure.

A recent example occurred with reconciliation. I got busy and wasn't able to make meetings and do as much work, but when the busy period was over, I didn't go back to reading and working on affair specific recovery as hard as I should have. I went back on autopilot. After a few weeks I "woke up" and gave myself a kick in the pants. This past week I've been revving back up.

7. Yes, please speak frankly. I need more compassionate frankness in my life.

I think your assessment is right on the money. There's a lot of unspoken things, on both sides, and I have avoidant tendencies. I grew up in a family where we never talked about anything difficult. Never. All those important milestone conversations that you're supposed to have in childhood? Not in that house. When my parents' finally divorced, my mom was driving with my sister and I and just said, "Your dad and I are getting a divorce, but we'll always love each other. And we're not talking about this anymore." Literally. I'm not paraphrasing or anything. That was the whole "conversation". Needless to say, I don't really know how to bring hard things up, but boy am I learning. I have to now.

I think specifically with this I'm worrying that Fell will feel pressured by me asking. I think I'm also scared that he's going to say nothing's changed, that he still is only living with me until our child moves out or it becomes untenable, and that saying "I love you", being more affectionate, and doing all that stuff for my birthday and after (he ordered more clothes for me online!) was just his way of surviving in this relationship until he has a way out. If so, I'll have to accept that's where we are and probably where we'll be for the next 10ish years, but it would be gutting. I think that's really what I'm avoiding.

8. Everything you said here is so true. I hate being alone and not being the center of attention. The former I knew, but the latter is one of the surprises I've uncovered in this process. It has been a lifelong struggle. I know I need to be ok with being alone, disliked, disagreed with, and sharing the spotlight. It's a major reason I'm in therapy. I feel like it's going to be a long time until I'll have developed a solid internal validation system. I'm scared that between now and then, I'm seriously going to hurt Fell again because of this fear. What was helpful for you in developing an internal validation system?

I was tired of living a life of lies, tired of living with the threat of my AP sending a text message or calling me while my wife was around or holding my phone. I wanted to live authentically and be who I really am and to stop hiding who I am from the whole world.

This is where I am now, though I'm having to start with hiding from myself first. It's wild how many things you can not know about yourself.

Also, hey fellow Trekkie!

10. What I mean by messing up reconciliation is when the betrayed partner brings up the affair, going to defensiveness, blaming, minimizing, stonewalling, etc. I'll go into more detail about how I messed up. First, we had a big fight in the very beginning of reconciliation. Fell said something when he was venting that I disagreed with but held my tongue, which would have been fine but I could also feel myself getting angry about it. It was the first time I felt anger toward Fell since the discovery (this was day 8 btw so very fresh and raw.) I tried to just stuff it down as he continued because I didn't want to be mad at him. It wasn't the time to be nitpicking over details. It wasn't a big deal to get mad over. But I was mad. So a few minutes later when he said something else that I thought was wrong, I snapped. I argued with him about it. I tried gaslighting him about it. At one point I shouted, "This isn't fair!" I knew as soon as I said it, what an incredibly selfish, thoughtless, whiney and immature thing I had said. Rather than admitting it and profusely apologizing like I should have, I tried to say that I meant to say that it was unfair to him (it is but that's not what I meant) and didn't apologize. As you can imagine, that escalating the argument even more. We have had a few more fights since then where I've attacked him, tried to manipulate him into not being upset, gaslit him, got defensive, minimized, shifted blame, all that good stuff.

Also. the timeline is taking me a long time to type up which is bothering him. I had started an appreciation journal for him that I told him I would update every day and ended up falling weeks behind on. That was really upsetting for him. I didn't know it at the time but the journal was gave him something to hold on to in the beginning of the relationship, and when I stopped keeping up with it, it crushed him. He felt, once again, completely unimportant and devalued by me. Fell also has said that I'm not doing enough to find my own resources. For example, he bought a few books/audiobooks for me to read and told me about this forum. I admit I'm not that good at research. I didn't know so much of this stuff existed. Neither did Fell though and he still found it.

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Last but not least, hikingout,

I cried the first time I read your post. Thank you for being so blunt yet thoughtful. My big fear is that I just have too much work to do to be a good partner to Fell who will never traumatize him again. It scares me more than losing him, though that's not a small fear either. I don't want him to stay out of complacency or settling. I'd rather Fell be free to live his life than traumatize him again or him be with me but miserable if those are the only two options. I'm scared that they are. It's Fell's decision to leave the relationship again. I've reflect on what you and atomic said, and I feel like at this point being like, "I'm just too fucked up. We have to live as separately as possible for your sake. Good luck healing from this all by yourself. Peace," would not actually be merciful or kind to Fell. He's not asking me to give up on reconciliation. He's telling me I need to work on reconciliation whether or not there's any hope for us. I don't know if I can do it but he's worth the effort. And I am too.

Just staying away is not going to do it because you don’t have the fundamental values behind that.

I agree with you that I have serious boundary issues. What do you mean by fundamental values?

You haven’t ruined your life.

I guess not, but I have a hard time really believing it. It surely feels like it from where I am now. From August to December Fell and I had grown so close. I had the relationship with Fell that we both wanted and we both put 10 years of work into (a lot of it Fell) to get. Whatever comes next, even if we do reconcile and find deep intimacy again, it won't be the same. We lost all this time. The threat of losing my family and home is so close. I already have lost it I guess, and we're trying to see if we can build something new. My professional reputation has also been tarnished before my career really began. I was supposed to be graduating in May. Fell was buying us rings. I had a job offer with my kick ass internship. Fell was planning out the timeline for us to have another child. Ugh. Affairs are the worst. It was so incredibly stupid of me to do this to myself and my family. ughhhhhhhh. It's hard to imagine that I could have deep intimacy with anyone else if we do split and I start dating again (that would be a looong time from now). I should probably just put all that aside for now. I can deal with separating and returning to dating if it comes to that. Too much to think about now.

The biggest thing is getting to the bottom of this neediness/fear of abandonment that you have.

Yes. This becomes more and more apparent to me every day. I need to learn to be ok on my own and not look to others to fill the hole in me. It doesn't work anyway. I was even more lonely with two men saying they were in love with me than one.

As for mitigating the lingering feelings, can you switch schools? Or programs or classes? You need to have zero contact with the AP. Zero.

The day after discovery/disclosure, I took a leave of absence from school, so we're not in class together. I have been no contact with Roy since December 6, 2023. EDIT: December 7, 2023 The one exception was when I was pressing criminal charges. The police officer asked me to do a pretext phone call to see if he would admit what he did to me. (He did not. He clammed up and cowered like the slimy snake he is.) I asked Fell's permission before doing so and he approved. The only "contact" we have is through the Title IX process. We were in the investigative process, but this wasn't projected to be over until after graduation. I talked about it with Fell and switched to the informal process. If we can reach an agreement, then the whole thing can be over maybe in a week or two instead of extending to June.

I was offered the opportunity to sit down and confront Roy face to face. As a survivor, this is the option that felt most empowering to me, but I knew that it wasn't going to be ok with Fell. When I discussed the informal process with Fell, I told him all the options for how contact between Roy and I would go while negotiating. Fell picked the least contact option. Basically, we don't talk to each other. We communicate through email with the Title IX coordinator being the go between. No emails are exchanged directly between Roy and I. I thought before talking with Fell that not being able to have the option I wanted was going to take time to let go, but instantly after he said what he wanted and I agreed, I felt at peace with it. I had acted with integrity, chose my wounded partner over myself, was honest, and have no doubt that I will be able to follow through with this agreement. I made a choice that I can live with over what felt right in the immediate short term.

Right now, I am seeing what Roy will admit to and what consequences he would find acceptable. Ideally, he needs to be expelled. He is interning with vulnerable women and children and that's not something an unrepentant rapists/emotional abuser should do. But if it would cut the process in half and Roy is repentant and willing to meet certain conditions, I might consider suspension. I checked first and I would still be able to return and graduate before he could start again. I have a feeling though we'll have to switch back to the formal process because he's a git. The lingering feelings were coming more from the fact that the whole process is a constant reminder of him. It doesn't help that it also means my own story is being picked at and questioned, which sometimes leads to me questioning it. But no, he is a shitty rapist. I'm not making it up or crazy.

[This message edited by morted at 11:12 AM, Friday, March 29th]

Congratulations on your recovery and healthy current relationship. That's inspiring. Do you feel like you're now someone who could never cheat, or like you could have another affair but you have all these tools and skills to keep you from seeking out another one?

I am sorry about your financial difficulties making separation impossible. My wife and I never had to struggle financially. Even though our incomes were comparable when we first married, her career took off after a few years. She is/was the main bread winner once her employment took off. We had already owned a home and were established before our kids came along.

Some folks say that given the right circumstances anyone can cheat. I can unequivocally my wife would never cheat. She is so loyal and loves me so much that it bothers me at times. My wife is a special person. Early in our marriage, I definitely had to self-impose boundaries knowing how I could be. I didn't want to hurt her like I did the ex-W. Now that I am 70ish, I rarely interact with any women. I am not sure I have any tools or skills to cope other than just saying NO, LoL!

For example, he bought a few books/audiobooks for me to read and told me about this forum. I admit I'm not that good at research. I didn't know so much of this stuff existed. Neither did Fell though and he still found it.

Kindly, your betrayed partner should not have to drag you through this, you didn't know the first thing about having an affair and you seemed to manage that just fine without his input. As someone who has managed to find themselves in a graduate degree program, I know you are capable of finding credible sources and learning, so it really seems as though your issue is putting in that work, which is probably what your BS is seeing a well.

Also, hey fellow Trekkie!

I had a colleague once reframe the whole thing for me, he wasn't a Trekkie, but he was absolutely in the category of what we would call the "classic nerd" archetype, but he owned it and he used to say to his wife "nerdy pays the bills babe" and that has always stuck with me. The amount of self-confidence that he had with that was an inspiration to me that I needed to lean into who I was and shed my younger jock mindset, because in my teens and early twenties, I was an athlete first, despite being academically successful and graduating with degrees in Chemistry and Biochemistry. Now I sit here today and I lean into my enjoyment of video games, smart home technology and the like because I'm no longer hiding from myself or the world.

I think specifically with this I'm worrying that Fell will feel pressured by me asking. I think I'm also scared that he's going to say nothing's changed, that he still is only living with me until our child moves out or it becomes untenable, and that saying "I love you", being more affectionate, and doing all that stuff for my birthday and after (he ordered more clothes for me online!) was just his way of surviving in this relationship until he has a way out. If so, I'll have to accept that's where we are and probably where we'll be for the next 10ish years, but it would be gutting. I think that's really what I'm avoiding.

A couple of things here, first off, this is no healthy environment to raise a child. Your child would be better off living in two separate homes if this is how your marriage is going to be. Sticking around as "roommates" to raise your child is not going to be a stable home for the child to grow up in. Gutting out X years until the kid is out of school is not the same as giving R a serious shot because you are tied together with a child. What do I mean by that? Well, my wife and I were just short of 10 years married and just over 12 years together when everything came crashing down, so we did have time together as a factor, but also a nearly 10 year old child. We both agreed throughout the process that if there was no child, we would've gone our separate ways, but we both put our sons needs at the top of our list of the marriage, because despite our feelings towards each other and all the hurt that relationship had caused, we both still very clearly wanted the best for him and we felt that being under the same roof was best, but only if we were going to function as a couple and not roommates. So for us, when we had kind of reached the end of the road for us, we looked back and said, let's give this a shot for him and if it doesn't work out, he will be better off in separate homes. But, for the most part, our North star in all of this was his well being and what can we do to make that happen.

Secondly, you are missing out on an important chance to build an strengthen your bond here. You just expressed to this board a legitimate worry/concern you have about your relationship to a message board of total strangers. You are avoiding having this conversation with your spouse because you are worried about what might happen, this is an avoidant behavior that is still a wayward behavior. We often say around here that you have to be wiling to lose the marriage to save the marriage, and what that truly means is that the outcome of your marriage is unknown, but rather than worrying about that and trying to influence it one way or the other, you need to focus on healing, setting better boundaries in place and becoming a safer partner and letting the rest sort itself out. Frankly, if you are not willing to have this conversation with your spouse, you are still avoiding issues and you are also not advocating for your own needs in the relationship.

I understand that you feel like you are in a position of "I deserve this misery because of my cheating" and while there is a sliver of truth there, a cheating sentence is not a death sentence for you to martyr yourself on for the rest of your marriage/life. Reconciliation is about building a new marriage and laying the old marriage to rest together because it wasn't working for one if not both of you. Of course, you are avoidant, because I'm not sure what else screams avoidant more than having an affair with a third party over resentments you developed towards your spouse. The unwillingness to broach this topic with your spouse is an outgrowth of that avoidance. Perhaps, and this is just me spitballing, the challenge for you should be to recognize these things and start doing uncomfortable things like having these conversations. Let your guard down and have these difficult conversations with your spouse and share with them your inner desires and your inner fears about this situation. Either way it goes, this group here can help you through it, but I'm willing to bet that your BS also has a lot of those same fears. Having been a BS and a WS, I can speak to the fact that the BS' mind is upside down, sometimes in like the exact opposite way the WS' head is drowning in it all. This is a golden opportunity for you to connect with your partner and share something deeply personal with him and you may find he shares similar concerns and you can bond over this, a bond that will help with healing going forward.

You've gotten a ton of great responses here, many of which have been insightful for me too. I just wanted to add a couple things.

This process has revealed to me that I have a lot of deep seated issues. The affair isn’t one stain on a lifetime of honesty and integrity. Recovery isn’t what I thought it would be before discovery - Fell processing their feelings and us moving on eventually - it’s about me seeing that the affair was part of a larger pattern of behavior and the underlying beliefs powering it.

I am right here with you. I intentionally sought out emotional affairs consistently for several years. I would be grateful to others who can share experience coming to terms with this and the differences between this and people who "fall into" affairs.

If I may speak frankly, after reading your post, I think this highlights something that has been a struggle your whole relationship, there are a lot of unspoken things in your relationship, which leads to the distance between you. Even just the way you ask these questions shows that you are a bit avoidant in your attachment style.

It triggers my fear of abandonment and that’s something I haven’t learned to deal with in a mature way.

I certainly cannot diagnose anyone, but I am finding resources for people with Borderline Personality Disorder helpful with this avoidant tendency when it comes to abandonment fears. There is a workbook I've been working through, and DBT has also been helpful.

Kindly, your betrayed partner should not have to drag you through this, you didn't know the first thing about having an affair and you seemed to manage that just fine without his input. As someone who has managed to find themselves in a graduate degree program, I know you are capable of finding credible sources and learning, so it really seems as though your issue is putting in that work, which is probably what your BS is seeing a well.

Ugh that is what my issue is but I was making excuses. You're right that he shouldnt have to hold my hand through this. It's soooooo unfair. I'm supposed to be holding his hand through this.

you are missing out on an important chance to build an strengthen your bond here.

I did miss that opportunity. Fell called me out today because he picked up on me getting my hopes up. We're discussing it now over text.

He did say that his position hasn't changed. He still wants to stay together for our son (splitting up and everyone staying housed is financially impossible right now so that would not be good for him.) but also that he is not interested in long term reconciliation. He does love me, and when it's freely given he likes to do nice things for me. He wants to be an example to our son of how to show someone that you love them and that they are special to you. If he can't do that while living here then when it's more tenable in the future he would move out. We both love our son dearly. Our son loves us. He does best when he has lots of "family time".

Perhaps, and this is just me spitballing, the challenge for you should be to recognize these things and start doing uncomfortable things like having these conversations.

This is one of the lessons I'm taking from this thread.