SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

As long as she won’t bend to what I’m asking for in relationship work, I’m not investing in the relationship.

What exactly have you told her you need her to do? Why is she refusing?

So all that to say, I’d prefer if you guys say what is on your minds.

Alright I will keep this in mind going forward. Sorry for Sugarcoating all this time! [laugh]

I agree with what HellFire said right above ^^ it's a good question, and I must say that there is too much truth in what I have been saying in all your other threads about your WW seeming to change very little (or at least not enough), with you consistently acting as a sort of cheerleader for her continued subpar efforts. Maybe this thread YOU are finally reaching your limit though.

[This message edited by WontBeFooledAgai at 8:38 PM, Saturday, February 10th]

Sounds wise to me.

You’ve read stories of what reconciling BS’s (who don’t regret it all) see in their WS, when they decide it’s worth one more whirl.

Tanner’s old posts can be found on Google and are one good perspective on it.

I think my wife struggled to know what to do. Before I did the 180 I think she was looking to grab on to some life change which would make it obvious to her that she should leave me. The reality of that prospect seemed less good.

One thing she did was gardening. She hadn’t done that very much before. I just watched, helped with heavier things, waited to see if she would continue or stop. When she didn’t stop I read it as a start, and in her way representing that she was no longer planning her exit.

This might Register with you InkHulk. We have both managed to be pretty good parents. I did sense a change in her tone when speaking to or about me around the kids. Just a bit more respectful.

For me those things were enough to settle a little. The gardening thing almost seemed comical but I chose to see the intention behind it.

Eventually I could sleep more than 3 hours a night again.

What exactly have you told her you need her to do? Why is she refusing?

I correct that, Hellfire you should totally hold back

Specifically I have asked for her to be intentional in our physical relationship. Doesn’t have to be anything over the top, just giving thought to it, even if it’s designed to overcome sexual trauma as we start.

It’s a balance: she has her sexual trauma from the past, and she also feels hurt from our sexual relationship in our marriage. We have some serious dueling trauma here. It’s part of why I have not pushed incredibly hard, and even now am not asking for much. Why she won’t do even the smallest amount, while I’ve worked on this, I can’t answer that. That’s her choice.

Edit to add: I feel more vulnerable than usual talking about our sexual relationship in our marriage. This isn’t an area that I’m going to be open to deep diving, I’m going to be pretty judicious around anything else there, just fyi.

[This message edited by InkHulk at 10:08 PM, Saturday, February 10th]

Thoughts from a morning walk: I think she is reverting to our "tried and true" anxious/avoidant dynamics in all this. She has been able to call me into action by withdrawing from me in the past. My KISA/Caretaker instincts along with my fear of abandonment would drive me to pursue her.

That shit ends here. No matter what she feels and believes she has against me, she isn’t going to withdraw and spite me into returning into this relationship. If she wants to leave, then she should leave. If she wants to stay, then she has to deal with me and my needs and my hurts and my trauma. And she actually needs to fucking convince me to stay. I appreciate the comments around her effort in the affair. Indeed, she put a TON of time and effort into it. And then to make matters even less unbalanced, during the affair I pursued her like she was Cleopatra during our "Summer of Love". If she wants me as a husband, she is going to make me feel it. And if she doesn’t want to do that, well, I’ve got the paperwork started.

Second thought from said morning walk:

Emergent, it’s been about a year now since you told me I was in denial. I half jokingly pointed out that I hated that term because of how my mother weaponized it, and you were kind about that. But as I reflect on my journey over the last couple years, there is no question in my mind that I’ve been in denial. I’ve appreciated reading about it recently in Codependent No More (more thanks to WBFA!), it describes denial as the brain’s shock absorber, giving your conscious mind only as much as it can handle. This has been a slow, painful journey thru myself and many deep rooted poor assumptions that my life has been built on. So many things are getting undone, I would have lost myself completely for them to all fall apart at once. So just a little more thanks for the wisdom and guidance. I feel like the best way I can pay you guys back for all you’ve done for me is to let you I’ve listened and it’s been impactful.

What you have written takes me back to the struggles we had. One thing to understand is that unless your W has ever been betrayed, she will never truly understand. Prior me becoming a BH, I had a very ignorant opinion of infidelity, "sucks to be you", attitude. I figured the BS would be pissed off for a couple of weeks and then get over it. Sadly most people have this same attitude, until it hits them.

My W would always ask "what do I need to be doing?". Honestly, I wasn’t sure, I definitely needed some space but my answer was "I’ll know it when I see it". I always let her know how I was doing. I’m not excusing her, but also understand she will never truly understand.

Honestly I would probably get a little more strict in the separation. These walks are a distraction, you are having it with someone who hasn’t had time to change much since before the separation.I was confused a bit about you talking about physical intimacy- I assume you were talking about before ihs. Being separated really shouldn’t include intimacy because it muddies the water so much.

In reality, she is likely not consciously being avoidant. Your wife IS avoidant. It’s part of her being, and it’s not an intentionally evil part of her. I can understand you hating the avoidance but this is how she has coped her entire life it has nothing to do with her relationship with you. It’s her relationship with herself. She can’t find the courage to see past her hurt and join you in yours because she hasn’t healed that part of herself. Sounds like she is turning the ihs into her being a victim of something. She needs to find the courage to be the vulnerable one without just reflecting vulnerability when she sees yours. This ironically will come from her forming the belief she is worthy and loveable. Its difficult sometimes to get there when you have just spent so long being the worst version of yourself. She keeps looking at you to show her that.

You are correct, it’s up to her to win you back.

In the meantime, it’s up to you to protect your energy for you and your children. It’s a catch 22 though because how do you make progress on intimacy and vulnerability if you are separated? Well, you don’t. She is in the same house as you but you almost need to pretend this is. Full separation.

Otherwise you will continue on this rollercoaster. The other day was a good walk so you felt up. Today was a bad walk so you felt down. Ihs is for you to gain some stability. If she can figure herself out it will be obvious something has changed. Until then, you need to 180 like a mofo. You focus on you, she focuses on her and until there has been some sort of break through, there is no reason to go on walks unless you need to discuss your children in their absence. You are separated. This is a time for her to rise to the occasion and you to get some

Much needed stability.

If you want to set up some sort of meetings to talk I might would consider setting up a marriage counseling appointment once a month so there is a mediator who can help reflect back the behaviors they are seeing.

You have said a few times "hiking has claimed a reconciliation out of the ashes but I don’t see how you did it" I think there were some advantages in our case- we didn’t have the physical intimacy barriers. I was willing to keep making effort no matter how he was reacting. The second one I learned from being on this site and reading what bs go through.(agree with Tanner it wasn’t clear ever to me what he needed to the path through)

We had major disadvantages too, his affair being the elephant in the room.

You are not asking for too much, Hulk. I think you are afraid to let the wound scab because you will no longer be invested the marriage. That’s okay. Let that happen. It’s okay for you to move towards your healing. You might be surprised to learn that is as important for a new marriage to form as her learning not to be avoidant. And if she doesn’t do her part, then you will allow that scab to turn I to a scar and you will move on. I know this terrifies you, but take it one day at a time and keep reaching for what you need- which from my perspective is space from her and riding that roller coaster you have been on for 18 months and counting. You have to get to where her behaviors do not affect your mood.

And denial, we all have it. Your wife has it most of all. And while I agree it’s not your job to punish her, it is your job to allow her to face the consequences of her actions and not being her safety net. You are truly a loving man and she knows that. This was absolutely a struggle in our marriage. On my clearest days one of the things I am most ashamed of is I banked on that loving man to stay. When in reality I was someone who did not deserve him.

Learning to be the woman who did deserve him involved learning to give myself love and happiness and inviting him to show up to a whole person who was able to give and receive love and respect because I now had it for myself. We can’t give what we don’t have.

These walks are like taking a cancer patient to the doctor every day and being disappointed they still have cancer.

[This message edited by hikingout at 7:09 PM, Sunday, February 11th]

Oh and one more thought about physical intimacy:

Loving yourself means that you want to enjoy your life to the fullest. Physical intimacy is pleasurable; a source of joy and connection. Your wife should want this for herself, rather than finding it in her heart to give it to you. That is another aspect of her relationship with herself.

People will point out she had it with the Ap. But did she thought? Likely not in this framing. My therapist one day suggested to me that it was a way of going back and touching this unresolved trauma. To allow myself to be abused again. It took some time to come to the realization she was right. It’s hard sometimes to see that when one is systematically sexually abused by someone they trust, there are still often positive feelings that confuse the issue. I personally got out of it a twisted sense of validation. Negative attention was attention, especially for a young girl who lived in a home where mostly only negative attention was given. It taught me a transactional view of sex. It’s so fucked up. I absolutely feel as much trauma from the affair sex as the molestation. In both cases for me it was willingly given at least on a surface level.

That’s all I will say on that, no response needed I am not trying to get you to dive deeper in that area with the group. I merely wanted to point out a healthy person wants that joyous intimacy for themselves. You don’t have to convince them to want that. They can’t give it to give something else. That’s where the needle in the meter has to go.

And it goes without saying you do deserve to have a satisfying intimate relationship with your wife. It’s a matter of her seeing she deserves that too.

In reality, she is likely not consciously being avoidant. Your wife IS avoidant. It’s part of her being, and it’s not an intentionally evil part of her.

Help me understand how someone so avoidant could be so invested in perusing and maintaining adulterous relationships?

Gra8tful, this was explained to me by several psychologist. Avoidant personalities still crave connection so affairs create a safe false intimacy where the stakes seem low (the cheater is confident no one will find out) and the dopamine hit pays well. Read on False intimacies. Quite common in affairs.

Help me understand how someone so avoidant could be so invested in perusing and maintaining adulterous relationships?

I think most ws are avoidant.

I was avoidant in doing the hard work to fix my life and marriage in a way that I would be happier with it.

I see affairs as escaping reality and responsibility. You are avoiding fixing the problems in your own life and basically getting high instead. It’s as destructive as drugs or gambling or any of the things avoidant people abuse to avoid their reality.

The affair is all based on artificial circumstances and is a destructive distraction from what is really going on. They aren’t pursuing the ap (well at least most aren’t) they are pursuing the way they want to feel in circumstances in which they don’t share a life, bills, health issues, children, a home, stress, or any of it. They are in a bubble in which they just keep getting high.

Do I think true love is available in an affair? maybe but that would be a very very hard sell to me. All that’s is available in an affair is avoiding who you are and what you are supposed to be doing. It’s the pure definition of avoidance.

And the ws didn’t just arrive there they have been there likely since childhood. I used books a nd friends houses to avoid the chaos at home. I ised busy-ness to avoid feeling my feelings in my marriage. I could go on and on, but if you have read much research this is almost always a ws trait. Many bs are avoidant too- they avoid rocking the boat for example. It’s the opposite of facing something head on.

What you have written takes me back to the struggles we had.

Tanner, I only know the bare bones of your story, I’d be very open to you expanding more on what you mean here.

I’d like to clarify, today was a solo walk, just rolling things around in my head, trying to understand my life. The two posts this morning came out of that.

I fully agree with OTOSOH and HO regarding avoidance. My wife desperately desires connection, and she is her own worst enemy in getting it. I can totally see that the affair was a way to feel that, whatever the cost.

I absolutely feel as much trauma from the affair sex as the molestation.

This statement scares the shit out of me. I’ve been worried about something like that for a long time. I can have infinite sympathy for my wife’s trauma from the past and from ways I’ve hurt and mistreated her. But can I tolerate my life being worse because of the way she traumatized herself in the act of betraying me? I honestly don’t know.

I’d like to clarify, today was a solo walk, just rolling things around in my head, trying to understand my life. The two posts this morning came out of that.

Good. My bad for misunderstanding. Please understand that I just want the best outcome for you, and I think letting her figure it out is still the only way. Providing insight on her is only there to help you detach your responsibility from it. So if I am being too much, I do apologize. In all reality I am rooting very much for your wife to snap out of this, and for you to have what you would ultimately want in your marriage. And if that’s not possible, then I want you to have peace. That requires being a little hard nosed right now (and I see you are getting there) and doesn’t have to wait for her.

I’m going to think a lot about the nature of our IHS going forward. The joint walk the other night did in fact lighten the tone a lot. And for as dark as my tone has gotten, I absolutely still love her. There is no question in my mind that we need to spend this time focused on ourselves, our own healing, managing our own emotions. I don’t know how much separation from her I need to do that. And if it’s hard 180, I’m going to struggle, I can already see that.

#fuckingrollercoaster

Good. My bad for misunderstanding. Please understand that I just want the best outcome for you, and I think letting her figure it out is still the only way. Providing insight on her is only there to help you detach your responsibility from it. So if I am being too much, I do apologize.

HikingOut, you owe me no apologies ever.

This statement scares the shit out of me. I’ve been worried about something like that for a long time. I can have infinite sympathy for my wife’s trauma from the past and from ways I’ve hurt and mistreated her. But can I tolerate my life being worse because of the way she traumatized herself in the act of betraying me? I honestly don’t know.

Well, I should have also said that I feel like I have healed the trauma from both. In fact seeing the correlation was a big aha moment towards that end.

I think a lot women who have been sexually abused either present on the promiscuous scale or maybe lean a bit more frigid to maybe highly frigid. I led with my sexuality for a lot of my life. I wanted to be the cool wife. In fact, you may think terrible of this but before h and I were married we even tried swinging. I had to shut that down because it was destroying me even though in the surface I seemed willing and even driving some of it. It may be confusing for some, but I am very monogamous at heart. I love the idea of being with just one person for my whole life. My lack of self live and respect told me I better go along with some of these things to be lovable. I probably would not have married h if he wasn’t fine with the idea we had some experiences and that door was now closed.

Trauma doesn’t have to hold one back from having a full and wonderful life. I think finding your way past the shame of the past and believing you are loveable and worthy is enough to be mindful to go forth with courage and vulnerability. But it is a journey to get to that belief.

In other words I don’t see it as a life sentence. Or something that isn’t something that can be overcome. It’s more a shifting of perspectives. If she is in emdr therapy she is making steps.

Instead of leading with my sexuality these days, I lead with love. I don’t see it as something I have to do to earn love, I see it as something I want to do to feel love.

[This message edited by hikingout at 9:49 PM, Sunday, February 11th]

Tanner, I only know the bare bones of your story, I’d be very open to you expanding more on what you mean here.

Like I said the first thing I had to understand is that she really doesn't understand. She doesn't know the fallout of betrayal.
We were in a limbo phase, she was like a live in gf that I wasn't ready to marry.