SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

I think InkHulk and I need to go have a beer

Name the time and place, I got first round.

I hope you are healing, glad to hear about the positive progress.

🛶

If you do go back to reconciling I would suggest thinking of terms of what that looks like for you, rather than a comparison of anything else.

This is a very nice succinct description of my position on passion. I’m going to quickly open and reclose the box on "for him, not for me", but I will not hold her to a standard of "you owe me anything you did with him". I will, on the other hand, listen to my gut and heart and refuse to accept a sex life that I don’t deeply enjoy. Same about emotional connection.

Box is closed, again asking for no commenting on this.

But mostly, I hope you find a peace and happiness whatever road you take.

♥️

I do my best not to take differences personally. One can be liked even if some of one's ideas aren't (liked).

*****

I know ... asking for what I wanted seemed unintuitive; maybe it just IS unintuitive. From some POVs, that is. My bet is that experiments will be positive - it's really nice to be specific and get a 'yes' or 'no.'

An alternative approach is an ultimatum - 'If you do/don't ____, I will do ____.' It really clears and cleans up communications. It speeds up negotiations, too.

*****

I read recently that the love language stuff isn't confirmed by social psych experiments. Most of those experiments are don on college students, and they may not be mature enough to understand.

Asking what one's WS does to show love can be very revealing. My W, a CSA survivor, is scared by touch. I placed little value on acts of service. When I started to see her AOSes as love, R took firm hold.

BTW, I used to touch my W in passing, very briefly and lightly. I did that because I saw that she sort of panicked when I touched her, so I concluded that briefer touches would be OK. W said she didn't like being touched briefly, but she thought she would like touches that were firm and lasted for some seconds or more. Which was what I really wanted.And I could have asked for it, too, but was afraid she had already rejected it

But since she was afraid I'd reject that sort of touching, she never asked for it, and we missed 43 years of touch. (Of course, since it was about touch, I would have been happy if she had told me what I wanted.... )

*****

I'll do some thinking on when asking is useful vs when it's not.

Now that I've edited this post, I think the main benefit of asking is that it requires the requester to figure out what they want and to risk rejection. But I'll think some more on it.

I read recently that the love language stuff isn't confirmed by social psych experiments.

I was just about to post this. There was an article about the love languages in the Washington Post this week. It's behind a pay wall, but I can gift it if you want to read it.

I am aaaaall about authenticity and transparency being the key to happiness. My opinion is that one should bring their authentic self to the table and only act outside of their natural wheelhouse if it doesn't ick them out to do so. If what you're able to give doesn't jibe with her authentic self and what she's able to give, then you get to decide whether or not that's a dealbreaker. I don't need to try to manage H to make him happy, and I don't want him doing that with me. I can give him things that I know that he enjoys but that don't do a thing for me, sure, but not at my expense. Maybe that's where your W is coming from right now.

I spent a lot of years trying to be what my H wanted me to be. I finally got to the point where I was DONE with that, and told him, "This is me. Take it or leave it, but stop pushing me to change." I meant it. I was ready to walk. We are who we are. We can grow and change and do better, but our fundamental selves aren't likely to morph into something new. Your W is who she is, and you get to decide if that's enough for you.

That is interesting about the Love Languages, I’ll have to read that. Years ago my work group was doing an event and we all did the Meyers Briggs. It got me interested in the foundation of that test, I looked into it, and oh man, that was developed based off some 🦇💩 crazy ideas. Yet we all know if we’re an introvert or an extrovert, don’t we?

Everyone shits all over the Myers-Briggs these days, but I think it's pretty accurate. It's usually the ST types who don't like it.

It's usually the ST types who don't like it.

I do believe that is your generalization quota for this thread, right there.

I do believe that is your generalization quota for this thread, right there.

I'm an ENFP (shocker!) surrounded by NFs. Everyone in my tight friend group is either an ENFP, INFP, or INFJ. Even my H is an ENFJ, which is a rare type for a man. All of my friends' significant others who discount the MBTI are STs. There's my anecdotal evidence!

I have to remind myself that not everyone is dealing with an intuitive feeler WS, and that can make a very big difference in one's ability to R, IMO.

Soul sister- very interesting.

I think love languages are overblown. It’s nice as an intro to kind of discuss needs but just doing the top one or two for your spouse is not going to cut it.

For example, My top two about a tie- physical touch, acts of service. My middle one is quality time and my bottom two are words of affirmation and I score like a zero on gifts.

Our connection suffers the most if we don’t have quality time. And him telling me I look nice probably made my day better, but if he gave me a gift that probably would make my week. Yet, I score so low there. We don’t buy each other gifts for anything, we aren’t big holiday people so I guess that’s why it would stand out.

And tmi maybe, but there are parts that my husband might want to touch a lot (like breasts) but I could name many other areas I would far more feel love from including things like handholding or kissing. So just because he is touching me doesn’t mean it’s something I am receiving as love.

That’s why I find love languages to be overly simplified, probably something I would give to a newlywed kind of as a jumping off point.

I agree with Sissoon about the communication. I am thinking that maybe the reason that’s not hitting the right note with Inkhulk is because maybe he hasn’t been shy about asking. For me, asking for what I wanted was buried under fears of rejection. I didn’t speak up for so long I lost touch of what those things even would be. It was all suppression and avoidance.

I think that is why I was bad at win wins, or negotiations. My way of dealing with it was to default to him. After spending time in IC, I definitely went through a rigid time where I was basically done giving because I saw that as self abandonment.

Like I said it’s one thing to understand a topic, and other to integrate it. It requires what I would describe as a new level of mindfulness. It’s quite tedious for a while and can really add to the exhaustion on both sides. Eventually, it is new habits with more common sense mixed in, rather than "this is just how we have always done it." That’s why sissoon’s example of 40 years they could have been touching more is so revealing. Was it common sense to sit down and spell out how they like to be touched? Maybe. But how many people really do that? The process of getting through the millions of details that goes into renegotiating a marriage for reconciliation absolutely does require that kind of stuff. But only after both people have had a chance to develop the self knowlege needed to begin that.

We certainly had to learn some of it together eventually and learned there was great fun in experimenting with all that.

To bring it full circle that’s why I think love languages can be limiting. They are too generic.

I read recently that the love language stuff isn't confirmed by social psych experiments.

It was written by a minister, and I believe it came about through the counseling work he was doing. I can't remember what his degree is. I think it was helpful in learning some different communication styles, but don't think it went through any psycho-social studies. I think it was something that the author found helpful in his practice, wrote a book and became popular.

"Love languages" are generic and people do have their own personal limitations of what they can or cannot do... which is why I think your description, InkHulk, of "creative effort" is very apt.

Even if she sometimes gets in wrong, taking the initiative and putting in the work to demonstrate love and care in ways that are meaningful to you is, in itself, an act of devotion and a measure of her commitment to the marriage.

Even if she sometimes gets in wrong, taking the initiative and putting in the work to demonstrate love and care in ways that are meaningful to you is, in itself, an act of devotion and a measure of her commitment to the marriage.

I agree. Now I’m asking myself if I’ve missed something like this.

I don’t think you overlooked anything because every time she has shown even a glimmer of progress, you have celebrated it and given her credit for it.

#feettothefire

I agree with Blue, you have spent a lot of time studying her. I don’t think you have missed it either. I do think it’s worthless to compare what someone does in an affair (not bringing up what you don’t want referenced- more general than that- putting out different effort) because nothing is authentic - a ws is transactional across the board.

I think she is actually the one who has missed appreciating your devotion. Whether it’s out of delusional expectations or genuinely not being able to receive it. (I suspect it’s a bit of both)And if she isn’t receiving I think she has a harder time "going all out" in terms of effort.

That’s why detachment is important. This is where the rubber meets the road. You have no choice but to protect yourself, and she will either increase her determination or give up. Have you considered a time limit on limbo?

[This message edited by hikingout at 3:50 AM, Friday, February 2nd]

Have you considered a time limit on limbo?

When I announced it, I said 3 to 6 months. That seems like a timeframe where at least some degree of critical individual work could be done, some EMDR or whatever to get past some major blockages, whatever those might be. Or maybe this isn’t about blockages and she has no interest in loving me and fantasy intimacy is all she has the capacity for.

So I’m not going to put a hard deadline on this. I’m going to trust myself to make a decision when I’m ready to make a decision.

Also, I don’t think we should get too hung up on the Love Languages in the discussion. I think the more general question of how to manage the mismatch of how two people show and receive love is the core of it. It seems to me that with the right attitude and heart toward your partner, love can flow all around all of those options. Or if you refuse to truly see and consider your partner, loneliness and grief will take over as you wait for things to happen just to your liking.

It seems to me that with the right attitude and heart toward your partner, love can flow all around all of those options. Or if you refuse to truly see and consider your partner, loneliness and grief will take over as you wait for things to happen just to your liking.

Beautifully said.

I have absolutely no doubt that you will come out stronger and happier on the other side of this, regardless of where you land, because of your emotional intelligence.

HikingOut

I do think it’s worthless to compare what someone does in an affair (not bringing up what you don’t want referenced- more general than that- putting out different effort) because nothing is authentic - a ws is transactional across the board.

I know the "real/not real" "authentic/inauthentic" subject has been beaten to death (so I definitely don't derail the conversation by reigniting that debate) but I don't think comparing someone's behavior in their affair vs their marriage is worthless.

Cheaters can say "I was just acting this way to get sex/validation/etc, I didn't actually mean it," but that doesn't change the fact that a person's time and effort has intrinsic value, regardless of intentions. Time and effort spent on the affair was time and effort stolen from the marriage. InkHulk's wife won't ever be able to get that back, but she can apply that same degree of emotional energy and dedication to their marriage going forward.

I think she is actually the one who has missed appreciating your devotion. Whether it’s out of delusional expectations or genuinely not being able to receive it. (I suspect it’s a bit of both)And if she isn’t receiving I think she has a harder time "going all out" in terms of effort.

That’s why detachment is important. This is where the rubber meets the road. You have no choice but to protect yourself, and she will either increase her determination or give up. Have you considered a time limit on limbo?

On this I agree with you 100%, particularly on the time limit. As I've said before, though, the time limit should be for InkHulk, not as an ultimatum for his wife.