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I meant to ask my attorney this today but with all the things we had to talk about I forgot so I thought I would reach out here.

Can you put in an agreement that the affair partner or partners in my case to not be allowed to be around the children? I will have physical custody but if my kids choose to go to dinner with stbwxh or come visit him they not I want any of these women around them.

I feel like this is probably not enforceable but just one of those things I was wondering.

[This message edited by Stayinghopefull at 12:38 AM, Tuesday, February 8th]

Unless you can prove they are harmful to your children or something serious such as violent etc then you will not get the courts to agree to that.

However you can TRY to explain to the STBX the detriment it will have on the children and hope the explanation is something the STBX understands a.

Doesn’t mean it will happen though. But you can try.

I can only share my experience with my situation. My DD was 6 when her father left us for his best friend's wife. This was hugely confusing to DD because in her little brain, daddy left her for the OWs three kids, who she used to play with. She couldn't understand why daddy left to be the daddy of these other kids she knew.

When I filed for divorce, included in the agreement was that for a period of a year, visitation with her dad had to be without the presence of OW. It was put in place to allow for my daughter to adjust to this new situation. While there were no visitation police per se, ours was a unique situation because we owned a B&B 130 miles away from where he was now living with OW and her kids. When he had visitation every other weekend, he came to the B&B and I left. OW was not allowed to join him for that year. What I found out was that he was dropping off OW at a hotel a half a mile away, and then would go pick her up after I left, and she would spend the weekend at our B&B with him and my daughter.

When I found that out, I called his mother for advice. She was a wonderful woman. She told me to take my daughter before he got there and have her spend the weekend with me, where I would go on those weekends. I did exactly that. He had no ability to go after me for breaking our visitation schedule, because I did it to thwart him breaking the rules of the agreement. He stopped doing that immediately because he knew it was prompted by his violation, because his attorney advised him of that.

So the short answer is that I was able to have that restriction put in my court order for defined period of time. It's not realistic to have it in place forever. But you can ask for a period of adjustment for your kids.

These are generally known as morality clauses. If both parties agree, you can most certainly have it included. Usually they are not directed specifically at APs (especially in no fault divorce), but rather new relationship partners in general. Enforcement, however, is very difficult unless you can prove they are a danger to the kids. And beware, it is a double-edged sword. If he discovers you dating at some point, he will try to use it against you as well because such clauses generally apply to both parties.

As always, every state is different so talk to your attorney.

I’ve never heard of a morality clause that banned specific people from being introduced to children, which would effectively give veto power to an ex-spouse over who a parent could have a serious relationship with or potentially marry. You could have a morality clause that said he had to inform you ahead of time before introducing your children to a new partner or that he needs to be in a relationship with someone x number of months before introducing them to your kids. But as others have said, morality clauses are notoriously difficult to enforce and considering that you will already have primary physical custody, there isn’t much you could do punitively if he violated it.

Your daughters are teenagers, correct? If so, they are perfectly capable of telling their father themselves if they don’t want to meet his APs and limit the time they spend with him if he doesn’t respect their wishes. One thing you will need to come to terms with as a divorced parent is that it’s not your responsibility to manage his relationships with your daughters. If he wants to screw it up, let him do it— as long as your daughters have you as the sane parent on whom they can rely.

Lastly, based on what you’ve said about his OWs and the manner in which your Stbx conducts his affairs, I doubt that he or any of these women have an interest in playing house with your daughters. In fact, I think he probably dreads the idea of shattering the fantasyland he lives in by dragging two sullen teenagers into it.

[This message edited by BluerThanBlue at 2:13 AM, Wednesday, February 9th]

Just echo other posts …,
In my area, can do by agreement, but no judge would order it
- hard to enforce w/o showing danger/harm to kids
- it may "cost" you in terms of negotiating

I agree with BluerThan. If your kids are teenagers, I’d let them decide what kind of relationship (or not) they want with their dad. If I had a nickel for every judge that’s said "how do you expect me to force a 14yo to see their mom/dad?" I’d have a heckuva lot of nickels.

I also think that supporting kids (to the extent you have the bandwidth) in navigating relationships can be a real opportunity for growth. It ain’t always easy to hold boundaries with someone we love, but it’s a valuable life lesson.

In my State, SC, yes, in a way.

In fact you can get some great ideas online by searching Judge Brown’s standard SC visitation.

So, in SC, no affair partners around the kids at all until the D is final. (It was easily enforced when my atty called his atty). Then when D is final, in SC, no overnights with boyfriends/girlfriends. (I called my atty again on this. So, xh texted me and said he guessed he would have to get married. what a loser now that I look back on this). Once the WS gets remarried, then yes they have overnights, but I got first right of refusal. When xh had to work on his weekends, I got our children.

It really sucked for my kids bc their Dad included ow kids in his visitation with our kids. Yes really.

I got my children into counseling without telling their Dad-so they could have a safe place to process everything. Please try to get your children around some good role models who are men. That really helped my kids a lot. And as soon as they could drive they would just visit their Dad like on Sunday afternoon, and leave ASAP.

I hated this D for my kids, but I became friends with a woman who’s husband died. She said she was trying to raise her daughter to understand that life doesn’t always go a certain way, and that you can’t be bitter about it, but have to work to still have a good life. I realized at least my kids could still see their Dad, and I could help them to handle the chaos their Dad created.
And I gave them a safe, secure home. They tell me now they appreciate all that. They grad college, have jobs, are good people and keep their Dad at arms length as he and ow are toxic people.

You can put something like that in a divorce agreement, but you will be bound by it as well. I wanted to put "no overnights with the opposite sex while the children are present" but my ex blew a gasket about it. Don't know why--I had the kids 95% of the time, so he had plenty of time to spend with the AP and others. Not to mention it's very difficult to enforce.

Whatever you put into the agreement will bind both parties, so be prudent and consider this carefully.

Cat

I think there is an argument to be made in favor of morality clauses (such as no overnight visits, notice of who the parent is dating) when children are very young and a parent's poor judgement in the past has put the children's safety and well-being at risk. For example, the parent has current or past APs with criminal records, allowed APs to babysit without the other BS's knowledge, or had sex with APs while the children were home, etc.

Otherwise, morality clauses amount to little more than an attempt to police a former spouse's life. The effort you spend trying to enforce the morality clause will keep you deeply entrenched and invested in your ex's life, which will impede your ability to heal and detach yourself from him mentally and emotionally. It will also put your kids in the awkward position of having to decide whether to keep secrets from you (to protect dad from getting "in trouble") or telling you what's going on and incurring his wrath or disapproval. Similarly, your STBX has always been able to rely on you to shield him from the consequences of his behavior on your daughters. Once you're divorced, he will have to learn how to parent and how to cultivate a relationship with them on his own.

I think your situation is much different than those of Charity411 and homewrecked2011. Your daughters are not helpless young children and there is no indication that your STBX is trying to push your daughters into accepting a new woman or family before your divorce is final. It would be a much better use of your time to empower your daughters to feel comfortable speaking up, advocating for themselves, and setting boundaries, not just with their father, but with anyone else.

For example, if he asks to them to meet an OW, they can tell him no. If he simply shows up with an OW, they can leave (or if they're not able to leave on their own) ask to be taken home (ask your lawyer, but I would say don't pick them up because that could be viewed as interfering with his visitation). If he complains to you or tries to blame you for your daughters' rejection of OWs and subsequent conflict with him, simply say: "I haven't forbidden our daughters from meeting or spending time with you or your girlfriend(s). Who you date is none of my business. You and [daughters] will need to figure out how to resolve this problem without involving me." END OF DISCUSSION.

[This message edited by BluerThanBlue at 3:34 PM, Wednesday, February 9th]

Probably not. I see this request as a personal favor as supposed to be a risk/safety issue for your children.

Thank you all for your input. It’s crazy all the things that you have to think about when preparing a separation agreement. I am just going to mention it too my attorney as it will just help my thought process through all of this. And I do agree that with my kids being older that they also can decide for themselves who they want to be around and they both have said they don’t want to be around any of these OW. It’s just disgusting what my stbx has done. He’s not only cheating on me but cheating on these OW too.

[This message edited by Stayinghopefull at 10:21 PM, Wednesday, February 9th]

Probably not. I see this request as a personal favor as supposed to be a risk/safety issue for your children.

It's not always about "risk/safety". For many people, it's about morality and emotional health. A parent might not want their former partner running a revolving door of casual lovers in front of their child. Other parents might want their kids to have TIME before observing their parents in a new relationship dynamic. Sometimes the kids know who the homewrecker is and don't want to be around them. In those cases a morality clause can protect them while they're processing their feelings. Of course, it's not easy to enforce a morality clause, but the offending parent is more likely to regret their flippant disregard of it than not. Kids aren't stupid and they hear everything.

ChamomileTea:

For many people, it's about morality and emotional health. A parent might not want their former partner running a revolving door of casual lovers in front of their child. Other parents might want their kids to have TIME before observing their parents in a new relationship dynamic. Sometimes the kids know who the homewrecker is and don't want to be around them.

Upon reflection, I think that if Stayinghopefull's ex is constantly bringing women around and having overnights during his parenting time, the morality clause might benefit the daughters if they no longer want to visit him and, consequently, he tries to take Stayinghopefull to court on the grounds of custodial or visitation interference. Stayinghopefull can then point to the morality clause and say, "We made an agreement not to have overnight dates with romantic partner while the girls were in our care, but he violated the agreement. That is why [daughters] refuse to visit him."

But there is no court on earth that is going to allow an ex-spouse or children (unless in cases of sex abuse) to dictate who a person is allowed to date and eventually introduce to their children, which is what Stayinghopefull wants. While the state has an interest in enforcing child support decrees, which help prevent single parents and children from resorting to government assistance in order to fulfill their basic needs, the state has no reason to support morality clauses, except in cases when there is a clear danger to children that would likely require intervention by CPS or the criminal justice system. Stayinghopefull might end up draining tons of money on lawyers with nothing to show for it.

And, as others have said, the morality clause will apply to Stayinghopefull as well. She might not foresee a time when she will be in another relationship, but that day will come, perhaps sooner than she expects. Narcissists and other malignant personalities can behave in really unpredictable and vindictive ways when they have lost control of an intimate partner. I would not put it past her ex-- particularly if he isn't happy in with his post-D life-- to use the morality clause to exert control over her romantic life, especially if he has the income at his disposable to drag her in and out of court.

Of course, it's not easy to enforce a morality clause, but the offending parent is more likely to regret their flippant disregard of it than not. Kids aren't stupid and they hear everything

I think a decent and rational person might feel regret, but not a serial cheater like this guy, who really doesn't seem to have much of a conscience or ability to be circumspect. He will either blame everyone else in the universe for his choices (Stayinghopefull, the daughters, the courts) or throw himself a pity party without actually taking any responsibility for anything.

Thank you bluer than blue and chamomile tea for your insights. I don’t want to control who he dates or brings around the kids forever. Even if it was just during our separation it would be nice for him not to try to introduce any of these current ow to our girls too soon. They don’t want to meet them or be around d them. I guess I’m just bouncing ideas off my head. Since we are getting closer to signing the agreement I want to make sure I have everything covered. I know one day they will be around him and some other woman and I am okay with that. They are old enough and smart enough to make their own decisions and develop their own opinion of any woman he dates or maybe marries one day.
I appreciate all of your advice!

Even if it was just during our separation it would be nice for him not to try to introduce any of these current ow to our girls too soon. They don’t want to meet them or be around d them.

I agree. Kids need TIME to wrap their minds around the change. If I were divorcing with kids at home, I wouldn't hesitate for a minute to invoke a morality clause. It's just good sense.

I wanted to put "no overnights with the opposite sex while the children are present"

I did have this in my agreement (and it only applied to him, was not mutual). Did my ex abide? NOPE.... Not only did he have woman (and their teens) stay for overnighters with my children....he ended up moving woman in.

Look at it this way - if this person did not respect your M agreement, don't expect them to respect your separation agreement.

One would hope they would for their children's sake but that is not always the case.

I am actually going through this situation at the moment. I live in NJ and work in a law firm that practices family law. NJ is a no fault state and judges are not huge on morality clauses. However, as we all know, every situation is different. In my case, when I began drafting and negotiating the terms of our MSA, I had no morality clause incorporated into our agreement. I also was basing child support on my STBWXH having both our children every other weekend and vacation time. I did this because that was "our" goal and he was not really asking for more time than this. (He would also be picking them up for a couple of hours every Wednesday, but no overnight.) I did this with hope that his relationship with our children would have gotten better and he would be more involved in their lives. Silly me. I have given him plenty of time as well as opportunities and he has only made things worse, especially with our 13 year old daughter. In my case, my children were put through enough and his actions directly affected them tremendously. Our daughter has voiced to him several times that she wants absolutely nothing to do with the OW. While he says he respects her decision, I don't trust that he will follow through on his promise to not bring her around my kid if he ever begins spending time with her again. The reality is, why should I or any of us believe him? He spent years breaking promise after promise to us and has done nothing to make things better. At the moment, our daughter told him that because he is still involved with the OW, she wants no relationship with him. However, I am thinking ahead here. So, I felt it was best to implement some language in my MSA to protect my kids. (And I say kids, because our 9 year old son does not know or understand what his father has done. Before he personally makes a decision on whether he chooses to be around the OW, I feel like he should be told the truth in an age-appropriate way.) I will not allow his dad to not be honest with him while introducing her because the last thing I need is for him to build resentment in the future if he forms a relationship with her and then finds out everything they both did. I feel like it is only the right thing to do and then the choice will be his to make.

I did speak to one of the family law attorneys in my firm and he is aware of my STBWXH's past behaviors. He did think it was a good idea in my situation and if a judge becomes aware of everything that transpired, he is confident my request will be granted. He does feel that both my children were emotionally and mentally abused with everything that took place. It was a very traumatic experience. While many people made a great point about a morality clause not being enforceable unless there is proof that the OW/OM proves to be a danger to the children, sometimes there are emotional and mental impacts that are just as damaging, if not more. I will say that I do not agree someone inputting a morality clause into an agreement to be spiteful and attempt to control whom their ex spends time with. This should be solely about the well-being of your children. That is why I had no issue holding myself to the same restrictions as I am requesting of their dad. Even though I have both children 99% of the time and for some, this may "not be fair", I personally have absolutely no issue with it. My children are my number one priority. I have lived the impacts of my situation and the devastation it left with my kids every day. The last thing I would do is cause more confusion and hurt by bringing a male into our home for an overnight or on a vacation. My children need time and stability. They need a lot of time and stability. However, my ex has been living in unicorn land for years now. What guarantee do I have that he won't randomly ask to have our son for a night and have the OW over that same night? Honestly, I could see him doing something like that and I just don't feel like either of my children are ready for that.

My STBWXH has been a unpredictable for years now. No, he has never physically assaulted any of us. However, he has verbally abused us and his behavior has created so much damage. I do feel like this is such an important factor that many states still do not take into consideration enough when dealing with custody issues. Seems like a taboo issue within the court system. Everyone seems to be so focused on "physical" danger and abuse, however, many of us on here have seen the impact infidelity alone has on our kids. It is such a huge cross for our children to unfairly carry. Infidelity does have an impact on our children's emotional and mental well-being and it seems like the impact is minimized more often than not. I guess unless you live it everyday, you don't really understand how destruction it really can be on everyone.

With all this said, I decided to insert language in my MSA that basically bars either of us from having any party of the opposite sex spend overnights while the children are present or go on vacations with either of my children. (Unless they are a family member.) I also added that neither of my children shall be introduced or be around a significant other or "friend" if they voice they are uncomfortable with the situation or the person. At the moment, he only spends a couple of hours with our son a week. (He picks him up on Wednesday for dinner.) However, I do need to think ahead and if he randomly asks me to pick him up for a night and our son decides to go, the last thing I need is for our 9 year old son to come home more confused or hurt than he already is. I am asking that this clause be effective for a reasonable amount of time in order my children to heal and process things. What's reasonable? Good question......that is why I also incorporated that we both will follow the recommendations of our children's therapists as to the length of this clause. When the children voice they are ready to meet mom or dad's significant other and their therapist feels they are prepared, we will adjust the clause accordingly. I sent him the revised MSA with this language and some additional financial changes last week and he is having his attorney review it. I am sure I will hear something back from them soon. I am curious to see what his response is.

[This message edited by Mari104 at 6:47 PM, Tuesday, February 15th]

Thank you for your response Mari04. Sounds like we, unfortunately, have a lot in common. My kids are a bit older but they are still only 18 and 15. Just last night stbx was talking on speaker phone to a 23 year old girl (one of his OW that I found out about in June). Our girls could hear his conversation as we were upstairs and he was downstairs. They have friends that know this girl too. She’s only 5 years older than our oldest daughter. This is the 2nd that our girls have heard him talking to on speaker phone. I hope your stbx agrees and doesn’t put up a fight. Just seems like common sense to not do these type of things but I guess waywards don’t always have common sense. I’m like you too. I’m totally fine with the morality clause. My main focus is my girls and their mental well being and happiness. I know he’s going to talk to these OW but please do it in private and not on speaker phone where your daughters can hear. Just can’t wait for us to be separated.

[This message edited by Stayinghopefull at 12:16 AM, Wednesday, February 16th]