SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

This has been on my mind a lot lately and sure enough, a wise member here mentioned it on another thread. Seemed like a good enough reason to share what I am working on and feeling. This will probably be all over the place. Sorry.

I never considered myself conflict avoidant. In fact, I felt quite the opposite. I rather enjoyed conflict, as long as I was in control or it lacked emotional baggage. I loved playing devils advocate in a debate or involving myself in someone else’s problems. I’d throw out a rather simple solution and feel good about myself for being so smart (even though I lacked empathy and I usually was wrong).

But I am/was avoidant of anything that makes me emotionally uncomfortable. This was especially true before my world blew apart last year. Saying I love you to my then wife, made me uncomfortable. Singing a lullaby to my daughter made me uncomfortable. Being emotionally available to anyone was extremely uncomfortable. So I just didn’t do it. After all the confessions last year by my xW and I, sitting in the unknown was so fucking uncomfortable. Not knowing the outcome made my skin crawl!

Unfortunately, damn near everything makes me uncomfortable now. So, I just cannot continue to avoid it. Even SI makes me uncomfortable. When people would accuse me of running, or punishing, or minimizing, I’d get angry and just pretend they were wrong. Afterall I’m a special snowflake, they didn’t understand me. My IC has been great about making me sit and squirm in those awkward feelings. Trying to get me to become comfortable with being uncomfortable.

My sister passed away last week. We knew it was coming (cancer), and I had made plans to visit. She died the day before I was supposed to arrive. My family history is complicated (surprise!), so I’m not very close to many of my family members. I was supposed to stay with these blood related strangers during the trip to visit my sister. Old avoidant me would have used plenty of easy excuses to not make the trip. I mean I’m just a stranger after all, plus my sister already passed, and let’s not forget about COVID. I was ready to call and cancel my flight and car reservations. I could feel myself hiding from being uncomfortable. I was going to ignore her death, like I did my fathers. Shed a quick tear and try to never think of them again. I was going to take the easy way out.

But I couldn’t. I’ve done that all my life and look what that’s gotten me! So I went……and I am so grateful that I did. We cried, we laughed, we even baked. Within 30 minutes of arriving at my stranger nephew’s house (he’s my age), we were underneath his Jeep replacing the starter. I no longer consider him a stranger. I love him and all the wonderful people I met or re-met after 20 years of disconnect. There were difficult uncomfortable moments, like sitting down and talking with my nieces after their mother passed. Or trying to comfort my other sister (they were very close). I didn’t know what to say or do most of the time, but at least I was there. At least I tried.

I’m still not comfortable being uncomfortable. But I am trying.

Close or not, I just wanted to say I'm really sorry for the loss of your sister. I lost mine unexpectedly last year and it seriously knocked me sideways. Losing a sibling is so different from losing a parent. I'm so glad you went! I think that was an awesome decision.

I'm so sorry for your loss, N, and am very proud of you for taking such a huge step in your healing.

You should be proud of yourself N, you are doing good work. Digging through the muck of our lives and focusing on the painful details sucks, it just does. And that feeling of being uncomfortable is hard to fight, I feel you.

For me, the changes made, and learning to be okay with being uncomfortable or not in control of the outcomes... while it was scary as hell to face those things, now that I have and have had the chance to change how I feel and react to those things... it's kinda beautiful. I like myself more. I'm happier. I'm more confident. I know who I am and where I stand.

While it is sad to hear about your sister, my condolences, it is so good to hear that you had such positive experiences and a chance to reconnect with loved ones. You get to experience joy and bonding.

Did you think you would ever be able to feel that way again? How do you feel about yourself, having made those changes in your life?

My condolences for your loss.

Way to go getting outside of your comfort zone!

Neanderthal:

Count me in on sending my condolences.

You know - shutting down and shutting out was something I learned to do many many moons ago. And it kinda worked...well...until it didn't.

Sitting in your feelings just sucks. It's scary and revealing and (for me) felt like I was telegraphing a weak spot or something so everyone could see just exactly how to hurt me.

But then I realized that shoving down all the shitty feelings meant I also wasn't capable of feeling anything resembling true joy or laughter - intimacy or inhibition.

Once I realized that I really couldn't protect myself from the "hurts of being human," I figured I better get busy finding ways to embrace them instead of running from them. (Oh, yeah - because I also realized feelings didn't just magically disappear on their own).

So good on you for being brave enough to literally head straight into a place of discomfort. Look at all the genuine moments you made with those people in a time of grief. You now have shared experiences that mark that hard time together. Good stuff in my opinion.

I am so sorry for your loss. I'm glad you forced yourself out of your comfort zone though and went. It's a good remminder for all of us.

[This message edited by landclark at 2:56 PM, December 16th (Wednesday)]

I'm sorry for your loss.

Accepting that life is not all - what? - chocolate mousse cake (that's what I wish it were) is a great, GREAT step forward, N.

I am sorry for your loss. Grief can bring out many hidden or stuffed away issues. Keep up the hard work of acknowledging the pain you have caused and working towards being a better man as well as a safe partner.

wildbananas, Thank you. I'm very sorry about your loss.

I lost my mom this time last year as well. My sister had a bunch of photos of all of us when I was a child. One of the pictures was of me sitting on my moms lap with my sister (the one who just passed) sitting next to us. My mom and sister where laughing when the picture was taken and they looked so happy. I immediately started to cry when I saw it. I was grieving for them both at the same time. I was able to get copies of all those photos to take home.

I like myself more. I'm happier. I'm more confident. I know who I am and where I stand.

That's the goal. Sometimes I feel like I am getting there. I think I know who I am, but then I question myself. The other day I helped a complete stranger who was in a pickle. It took 30 seconds and then I was back on my way. Afterwards I must have analyzed it for an hour. What was my motive? Why did I do it? I hate that part of me now. Nothing is simple. Unfortunately I really struggle trusting other people as well.

Did you think you would ever be able to feel that way again? How do you feel about yourself, having made those changes in your life?

It's tough. I mean I didn't realize just how closed off I was to family or love. It was a gradual process to completely wall myself off like I did. So having the weekend with a bunch of goofball family members was pretty amazing. I feel good about myself for going. That sounds selfish though. It should have been about my sister.

Sisoon, I am sorry for your loss as well. Thank you.

This is a great post, N. Something for all of us to keep in mind.

You and LD strike me as two of the great success stories of SI. Both of you are almost unrecognizable to the people who first showed up here. Wherever your lives take you, I think Mangled Heart and Deeply Scared's idea for building this website would be justified by the growth in the two of you alone.

This place really does change lives.

Sorry for your loss, N.

I think plain "avoidant" is a good thing to recognize. I am also avoidant. For a lot of my life if it wasn't easy or happy I just ignored it. And worse, would pat myself on the back for just being stronger than everyone else. Yep, I am pretty sure I thought that arrogantly. Why couldn't everyone else just get over it?

I lived in a bubble. The thing about the bubble is it's still penetrated, things are still absorbed. We just carry those things around with us and never really process them. What you are describing to me sounds like the painful process of turning that faucet on and allowing more cognizant processing. At first it's a little overwhelming, but after the faucet runs a while you will start to feel better and it will be much more manageable. At least it was for me, and I suspect if you keep at it then I suspect it will be similar for you.

I wouldn't say I am an alcholic but I know years ago I drank wine too often and in excess. So, I abused alcohol to a certain degree, I just didn't have a problem turning it off when I acknowledged it, and have gone long periods of abstaining altogether without even noticing much. Anyway, I am bridging this here because I know that's one of the tools you used to avoid. Often those things get replaced with others. Being completely sober from alcohol and not replacing it with another unhealthy thing is probably exacerbating these feelings for you. I hope you have outside support and don't feel you can do all of this on your own. I have found some folks through meetup, I don't know or remember if you do IC or AA, but definitely don't just white knuckle your way through this time. Try and learn to harness some of it, and to me that means talking with others and really listening to our thoughts.

I have recommended the book "The Power of Now" many times to many people. I think this is a good juncture for you to read it. And, if you are not a big reader, go out and find some Eckhardt Tolle podcasts or such. The reason I think it's helpful is he really teaches you to think about the idea that nothing else exists other than this exact moment. All the stuff we load into it is our ego doing so. And, he teaches a lot about being a conscientious observer of our thoughts. So much of what we think isn't even true, and in that way we get in our own way. The book is not a quick read. It took me 6 months to finish it the first time I read it. Because you really do have to put it away after a few pages and try and absorb and practice some of it. It's increased my awareness and ability to be in the present moment without as much anxiety or self-induced pain. Eventually that practicing taught me how much Joy and the present moment are important to one another.

There are also some books by Pema Chadron that also were interesting follow ups reads. I don't think there has to be any order of which you read first, but I did find that it helped me grasp concepts by reading the Power of Now first as it allowed what she is trying to convey to resonate a bit more.

You are on a very good track. I read a lot of humility in your words today, and I feel like that eventually lends itself well to vulnerability and self compassion. That's a powerful trio that will be helpful in strengthening your connection with others. Glad to see this happening. None of us have the answers, we are all failing and succeeding and failing again, and we are all worthy of more than we have allowed ourselves so far. Take care.

[This message edited by hikingout at 8:41 AM, December 17th (Thursday)]

Why couldn't everyone else just get over it?

I was the same way. I think mainly because I had zero empathy for pretty much anyone. Without emotions everything seems so simple, matter of fact, black or white. Plus I always played the get over it card, because I had endured plenty of things in life, and look at me....I'm doing just fine. Boy oh boy was I avoiding some stuff.

My journey with alcoholism is still ongoing. I was over 4 years sober before dday. I excused myself to drink that day. Utter bullshit. I new it was wrong, bad, damaging, and very stupid. I allowed myself to be a victim, and ended up losing my sobriety. Something that I was very proud of. Fortunately I got to start over. At first I was ashamed to go back to AA, they weren't ashamed of me. They welcomed me back. I got my 24 hour chip, then one month, 6 month and so on. Now I'm almost to 17 months sober. I am proud of that too. But I know I am not healed, It's a life long journey.

I'm also in IC. Unfortunately the local support groups are for women only. BAN doesn't haver a local chapter here either.

So much of what we think isn't even true, and in that way we get in our own way.

I definitely have a problem with that. I have gotten better about stopping and redirecting my thinking. Questioning why I feel that way. Hell, I've even asked the people around me (Friends, family and IC). I'll ask them: "Does this thought make sense? Do you see me as that person?" I don't know if that's a good way to handle it. I don't want to turn to external validation.

I'll look into your book recommendations. Lately I have been having a very hard time comprehending what I read in books. I am a fast reader, but I don't seem to absorb it anymore. I've tried slowing down and rereading. But the white noise in the background of my brain just keeps me from focusing. I don't know if that makes sense. Podcasts are hit or miss too. I can't focus like I want to.

No, I have had periods of that. I used to be an avid reader, and am experiencing the same thing. I used to read before bed, now I play tiktoks forever. It started around the time Covid hit, everything is so heavy.

I don't have an attention span right now either. He has some youtube stuff, I haven't looked at it, but you might be able to get some of it just by watching what he puts out. Not sure.

Afterwards I must have analyzed it for an hour. What was my motive? Why did I do it? I hate that part of me now. Nothing is simple. Unfortunately, I really struggle with trusting other people as well.

It is a struggle. For what it is worth however, it's a positive process, a necessary one, at least for now. I'm curious, before now (before the A) did you ever go through this process? I certainly didn't. But it seems like something a healthy person should, and maybe just naturally would, go through now and then. How else do we really know who we are, what we stand for and against, and check our beliefs and perception against newer information? For me, if an emotion is strong enough to notice, then I feel I need to pay some attention to it, and run it past a few sanity checks. Am I being selfish? Do I understand what the other person is really asking for? Am I triggering, and if so, why? Should I respond or should I sit in it first? Am I the asshole here? Did I do something nice for someone because I want to be a nice person, or because I needed ego kibbles? It's a constant process. To be fair however, it is not endless. After a while, you start to know yourself a little better. Triggers get replaced with newer, healthier messages. The KISA gets replaced by someone is capable of empathy, and nothing done with empathy is selfish. Go ahead and hate the need for the process, but don't hate yourself for it. You aren't that person anymore and you are working to be someone better. As much as we may hate our previous actions and the damage done, we now get to love ourselves for being someone we can respect. Give yourself credit for going through this process, even if you hate doing it. There are many WS's that can't even bring themselves to this level of the recovery process. You are doing well.

I feel good about myself for going. That sounds selfish though. It should have been about my sister.

One does not in any way invalidate the other. You should feel good about going, and be proud of yourself even, if even just a little. That wasn't easy for you. You think differently now than you did during the affair. The selfish thing to do would have been to NOT go, NOT make the effort. And I'll tell you something, and this is just my opinion, but I believe that, well... your sister is gone. She no longer knows nor cares what happens on earth, that is not her realm anymore. However, I do believe that she would have wanted what was best for YOU now. And what was best for you was to reconnect with the family, having a chance to rediscover yourself, and being there "for her" not because she'll know, but because you'll know, and you need to respect both her and yourself. You did so by going. That is the opposite of selfishness.

If you don't mind some unrequested advice, it seems as if you are still struggling with some guilt and shame issues, and still defining yourself as that person you hate. That's okay, we all go through this stage, and lord knows, I was literally stuck there for years. Just do yourself a favor, and when asking yourself your "why's", ask them in both directions, past and present. Ask yourself why you thought as you did in the past (what made it okay to have an affair?), but also ask yourself why you are who you are today. If you did things in the past because you didn't love yourself, then how would things be different now if you did learn to love yourself? Why should you pursue that? What happens if you don't?

DaddyDom,

I didn't really know how to respond to some of your questions. My timeline is so wonky. My infidelity was years ago and we rugswept. Although I did take steps towards becoming a better person, I never really dealt with the core broken values in me. It was until after LD's affair that everything was out in the open. I was analyzing everything. So no, if I did something nice for a stranger, I didn't question it. I just patted myself on the back and moved on. Since 18 months ago....I break down damn near every decision I make until I no longer remember what I was looking at to begin with. I do usually just accept I was an asshole though.

The KISA gets replaced by someone is capable of empathy

This really struck me. I always thought I had empathy towards women. Especially older women. My mom was much older when she had me. She was in a wheelchair most of my life and eventually died due to MS complications. I saw her survive a physically and mentally abusive cheating husband, multiple suicide attempts, and being stuck in a nursing home without her permission. She managed to live on her own for many years beyond what most of us thought possible. She was truly a remarkable strong woman.

But It wasn't until recently that I viewed her that way. Before I saw her as weak. Not capable of doing basic tasks, reliant on others, selfish (suicide attempts, I was 9?), and in need of a KISA! That was my job as a preteen and teen. I took care of her and resented her at the same time. I looked down on her. Then I moved in with my sister and she was just another weak woman that needed a KISA! She was an addict, bad marriage, and very emotionally broken. She also had a young daughter (my niece). For a couple years, I helped raise her. Many days I was the only sober person in the house. Again KISA reared its ugly head.

Then came LD. She had a history of bad boyfriends, all kinds of FOO issues, and fit perfectly into my KISA narrative. I was her savior. How fucking sad is that.

Sadly at some point I started viewing women as less than. Needing my help or they couldn't possibly survive. I didn't have empathy for them, I just looked down on them. I had to save them (sometimes from themselves).

So the other day, when I helped a random mom get her car unstuck in the mud (her boys and I pushed her out). I questioned my motives. WTF was wrong with me? The thing is, it happened so fast. I didn't think, I just acted, and helped. So is that muscle memory KISA? or just being helpful?

If I just opened my eyes...I have many incredibly strong women in my life. I had 4 bad ass sisters who somehow survived trauma that would end the best of us. My mom was a fucking rockstar. My mom in law didn't need a KISA either. Look at LD, she certainly doesn't need help from the likes of me.

I want to believe I have empathy, not just KISA. How do you correct a lifetime of wrong thinking? For my daughters sake, I hope I am on the right track.

Wow that took an ugly turn. Yeah I have plenty of guilt and shame issues. The more I uncover, the more I have to be ashamed of.

Hey N-

Great journey you are on. I’m a BS but on a similar journey myself— we are all very imperfect and the stressors from infidelity have a way of illuminating them quite clearly.

As you get curious and think back, remember that some of what we do is what we were trained to do. It is all we knew. Now we know better and we do better.

Keep going on your journey. You are worth it.

Great thread, N - thank you!

can't focus like I want to.

I think this is common for the BS side of the equation. I still can't really read on paper - I've switched to audiobooks and it's better (like podcasts), but still FAR from what I had before dday/PTSD. The book "the Body Keeps the Score" speaks to this as a fairly common reaction to trauma. Even tho I'm not triggering all the time, I guess our limbic system is still working stuff out?

Just wanted to say you are not alone on this front.

Oh N. 'The likes of you' isn't a bad guy. Have you fucked up? Yep. But so has everyone. The first step in any journey of self discovery is acknowledging the problem. Put it this way, you're light years ahead of my xwh!

But not only do I see you acknowledging your issues, I also see you consciously challenging your beliefs that you recognize are problematic. Please give yourself credit for that because that is not a small thing.

We all just muddle through this shit the best we can. I know my own journey hasn't been easy. I made choices back then that I definitely wouldn't make now, but I didn't know then what I do now. When you know better, you do better. Don't beat yourself up for the choices you made and the beliefs you held years ago. You did the best you could at that time. Now you know better and you ARE doing better.

Your daughter is a lucky kid N. She has a dad (and a mom) that adore her and that are working so hard to be better versions of themselves and finding their way forward to coparent her with love and genuine affection. You won't get it exactly right, but that's what you aim for. You have come such a long way and I for one commend you. I think you should too.