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WS
How did you feel when you saw for the first time how devastated your BS was from discovering your affair (while the affair was still going on strong) ? Were you able to feel your BS’s pain or did the affair "fog" cloud your emotions? Did it gut you to the core or were you more detached/ indifferent?

Hi DG,

I was in an exit A, so my sympathy for my husband was near 0. Seeing him be physically ill and frantic made me worried for him and scared for myself, unfortunately. Since then, after a ton of work on myself, I look back on that day with a ton of shame. At the time I was incapable of providing him comfort or empathy. I wish I could go back and just hold him and comfort him. He never deserved any of this.

In the end, it's a complete lack of attachment, care and sympathy that leads most of us WS's to justify our A's. Since we didn't have empathy for our BS's before and during our A's, most of us don't have any empathy or very much remorse shortly after discovery.

I will say though, that mine was an unusual case in that I was in an exit A. I was completely detached, thinking only how to survive the next 10 yearsish until my kids were going off to college. The A was a survival tactic until I could D. The "pick me dance" that my husband did after DDay actually wooed me back- it showed me he was capable of caring for me. We had a terrible M before the A. BUT... cheating didn't do anything to fix it. In the end, here I am now wishing I could have done things differently. Not had the A, comforted and showed remorse right after DDay, showed determination to fix the M, told the full truth.

Waywards, for those of you whose BS chose to D you after trying for some time to R, because you couldn't take the anger, the bombardment of questions from your BS and the so-called "craziness", was the A worth it in the end for you? Was the A worth the damage you caused the kids, your BS, the family? How did you feel when your BS finally tells you that he/she can't possibly put up with you anymore? That you have no empathy, not putting in the effort and he/she just wants a D? Do you feel relieved, because now you don't have to deal with the anger and craziness from BS anymore? Would you run back to AP if there was a chance after D? I'm just curious because after almost 8 months of trying and despite thinking I will try to R for many reasons, as the BS, I've now got one foot out the door, as I don't think it's worth it to R anymore. I just want to know how a WS feels in situations like these. Thank you.

TPIR

I do not know your back story and I am not in the same situation as you are but I can offer my opinion on whether it was worth it or not.

I can say unequivocally and without hesitation that IT WAS NOT WORTH IT! The type of person I was and the level of betrayal that I perpetrated on my wife and child truly astonishes me. Here is a woman who stood by me during some of the darkest periods of my life. Dealt with me during my addiction and going off the rails for over 6 years. How did I choose to repay her? By having an A. It’s so disgusting that I’m actually wincing while typing this.

But the real kicker is seeing my AP for who she truly was. I really bought into the whole soulmate narrative for a long time. After I ended the A, I subsequently found out that she had been seeing other people during our A all the while professing her undying love and commitment to me. It was quite a sobering moment; here I risked everything for someone who was as broken as I was. I was so blinded to so many things and lied to myself for such a long time.

Hi TPIR,

It's fairly rare for WS to stick around here after divorce, and it's unlikely that anyone who did would be inclined to think the A was worth it. Once the marriage ends, the only reason for WS to be here is to do authentic work on themselves for their own sake, so the piners and the fakers evaporate.

We have had a few WS who gave it their all but whose spouses ultimately decided the A was an insurmountable dealbreaker. You might want to search for later posts by past members JBWD and LifeDestroyer, both of whom had to struggle with accepting D and moving on.

Thank you, ff4152 and BSR, for your responses and insight.

I'm not sure how I can search for posts from particular members but I'll look through the forums.

I'm not sure how I can search for posts from particular members but I'll look through the forums.

Under the members drop down choose Search members. Type in the two names given. That should select their profile. Use Recent posts or archived posts to look back at what they have posted.

ThePainIsReal,

My H divorced me immediately after D-day 12 years ago. I was free and clear to run off into the sunset with AP. I didn’t—mostly because I was ashamed, but also because I didn’t want to further rub it in my BH’s face (we all worked at the same facility).

BH and I eventually remarried, which was dumber than dumb, but regardless, the answer to your question is that I didn’t stay with AP, who was my ex and who I still very much legitimately cared for, when I had the opportunity to do so.

To WS and BS, anyone’s who going through this truly awful infidelity, who can offer some perspective. I am grateful to you in advance and would be lost without SI.

I am looking for help in trying to clarify if the things my FWH continues to say about the sex with the AP is preventing real R. My biggest fear is that 21/2 years out from DD that I am in false R and wasting my time. I have already been made a fool of for too long and I suspect some of the things my husband continues to say are an attempt to keep me feeling insecure, and him in the driving seat. I know from being on here I am not responsible for his cheating, that he is deeply floored and broken to have done this. The problem is - does he really see the reality of what he’s done and his deep seated issues or is he just trying to rug sweep and blame shift.

My FWH had a 2yr PA with a COW. It became physical almost straight away. FWH cites working away, a new job, FOO and watching too much pornography as making him vulnerable to an affair.He also has issues with binge drinking at times of stress. His AP was older, higher up at work and divorced. According to him, she was predatory, wouldn’t take no for an answer. She came on to him and at first he resisted. But he like the attention and being wanted. He says he wasn’t initially attracted to her - but once they had sex - he became more attracted to her and less to me.

He says that the sex was what drove him, that he really enjoyed the sex and they never had a bad sexual experience. After IC and MC - he continues to say how amazing the sex was years out and that he’s just being honest. He says I just have to accept that this part of the affair was enjoyable and that AP was very experienced sexually. He can’t change what happened or how he felt at the time.

Yet, the first 3 times they went to a hotel room he couldn’t get an erection. This is something he has just brushed over. He says she suggested he get viagra and the thought had never entered his head. Not sure how long he would have kept on trying but if the sexual chemistry was there- why did he need it? She kept pushing for it yet he was the one who had go to the chemist and buy the tablets ( he says it was embarrassing) and continued to do so throughout the 2years. That’s a lot of tablets and surely at some point he must have questioned it’s sustainability. I am baffled that she wanted sex so badly she had to persuade him to get viagra and both be so reliant on it. He would regularly get nose bleeds -which would halt their amazing sex!

His reasoning behind it was he was intimidated by her and needed to please her sexually to keep her sweet He even said viagra is a wonder drug and he can see why everyone raves about it

How he can glorify a tablet that enabled him to betray me, destroy our marriage and hurt our children, is very troubling. How he thinks the dynamic between them was healthy and the sex so fulfilling I will never know. To me it seems dysfunctional from the start - so I struggle when he simplifies it as - it was just great sex. I think he’s missing the point of having an IC and becoming a safe partner. He doesn’t seem embarrassed now by any of this.

The other thing that creates great insecurity in me is that once the affair started, especially in the early days when he couldn’t get it up ( Christmas 2017) he started criticising my appearance. Especially my weight. Saying my weight gain over the 20 year marriage made me less attractive to him. Nothing about how my incredible body had grown and carried our 3 gorgeous children and undergone 3 c sections in 4 years. No I wasn’t the same as when we met at 17 and when I had an amazing toned stomach It literally came out of nowhere but continued throughout the affair. My IC said this was verbal abuse and there is no excuse for this behaviour.

I understand that he needed to vilify me to justify his despicable behaviour then. Now he says I am gorgeous and he finds me attractive, but I don’t feel it. The problem I have is that as long as he continues to put her on a pedestal where sex is concerned, saying how much he enjoyed fucking her. I am constantly going to be comparing myself to her and that I am not enough for him sexually or thin enough!

He says he’s just being honest and if I don’t want know then I shouldn’t ask. That he’s no longer attracted to her, she’s ugly and old and he hates her and what she did to us. But as long as he talks about the " great sex " - the affair is being glamorised, and so is she. He just doesn’t seem to get it. He says he remorseful but he continues to traumatise and confuse me whenever we discuss his why’s. I know people talk about a shame spiral but he doesn’t seem to be ashamed. Just very black and white. Often he appears emotionless.

I have read a lot of WS posts who look back at what they did and feel deep shame and disgust at their behaviour. Most see the affair for what it was - nothing good came of it and it only deepened their problems. I am concerned that my H still thinks great sex is a good explanation for his double life. If that’s all that mattered to him - why didn’t he just leave to have great sex with her forever. When I ask him this - he says because it wasn’t real

But it’s real enough to still have good memories for him and to have completely destroyed me and my self esteem. I don’t know what great sex is anymore? I thought we had great sex but if that were true why was he buying tablets to have sex with someone else. It seems like he was determined to cheat as soon as he got the chance and was willing to do whatever it took, with anybody just to perform sexually. Sex with us now, after the initial HB feels empty and without connection. I think I am holding back as I am scared to be vulnerable with this man who feels like a stranger. I don’t want to be compared to her.

Is it just time to end it? Am I flogging a dead horse. He’s had so many chances to change but essentially he’s still very selfish and lacks real empathy for how this affects me and our family. Thank you for reading - sorry it’s so long.

3StarsInTheDark

Perhaps a bit of my experience will help. I apologize and this will be slightly graphic.

The only sex acts my AP and I did together were kissing, petting and her performing oral on me. To say she was quite gifted in the particular skill would be an understatement.

The A, at least from where I was sitting at the time, was great. She made no demands of me, told me what a wonderful guy I was and blew me every time we saw each other.

I only mention the sex act because it is something my wife will not do. She has no interest in oral, giving or receiving.

All of that being said, I have no fond memories of my time with my AP. Can I say it was a great blowjob? Sure. But it only elicits pain when I think about it. I hold no fond memories of my A or my AP. They only serve as a reminder of my betrayal and that’s something I wish I could forget.

Based upon what you’ve written, your H doesn’t really sound like he has real remorse for what he’s done. He may be paying you lip service but to look on this with any fondness belies his claims of remorse. After 2 1/2 years, I kind of get the feeling you know where your H heart truly lies.

I'm interested to see where this discussion goes, because it's the opposite of what I usually encounter on SI. In my experience, when this topic comes up, BS are usually angry that the WS is trying to rewrite history by minimizing their enjoyment of sex with the AP. A wayward's claims of lackluster affair sex are usually met with skepticism and resentment --"if they weren't loving it, why did they do it?" So I'm intrigued to see a BS approach this from the other angle.

I do not like to talk about the sexual details of my affair. I once did so to help a member who turned out to be a troll and vowed to never do it again. The basic summary, though, is that I enjoyed the physical aspects. It wasn't transformative, but it was successful by most measures of what constitutes "good sex." I've forgotten quite a bit of it and wish I hadn't done it. But if I said I hated it at the time or that it was physically unsatisfying, I would be lying. I can't go back in time and change how I felt in the moment. It was fueled by hormones and dependent on my willful ignorance of red flags, but nonetheless, it was pleasurable.

3stars,

My experience is possibly a bit different because I cheated with an ex boyfriend, so I already knew what sex with him was like and already knew that I enjoyed it. And I did enjoy it, the physical as well as emotional aspects. I felt deeply attached to him in ways beyond just sex. In terms of the sex, yes, I enjoyed it, both pre-A and during the A.

Like BSR and ff4152, I deeply regret cheating. It was an immoral thing to do and it very much hurt my H—in fact he divorced me because of it (we are now remarried to each other). I disagree with ff4152 in that I believe a WS can be honest about having enjoyed the sex while still being remorseful for having committed adultery and having caused extreme hurt to their spouse by doing so.

3starsinthedark,

Hi, I am a former BS, 3+ years into R.

I so relate to some of your feelings! I too, have gone there myself in the first two years of our R. The thoughts of comparisons, asking why’s, asking about the sex they had, their intimacy, trickle truth etc.etc.

Sex during an affair. Ugh!

During the affair, the "infatuation" between AP and WS puts them on a pedestal for one another. Usually, the spouse is a non-entity.

It’s great with the newness, the excitement that develops. That was the case with my husband during his affair and during our separation when he was living with her. 17 months of excitement, viagra, both enablers for mutual heavy alcohol intake. She is three years older, a professional retiree with lots of money and single at that time. Very proud of her own slim body ( no children) and her sexuality according to my husband. She also engaged in stalking my husband/our home during the first two years. Year three, silence.

Some graphic here: she would whisper into his ear at a restaurant that she had no underwear on. She would wear his dress shirt, with nothing underneath to greet him in the evenings in her house. Oh and let me add, and I do not wish to offend any readers: she had a lasered/shaved pussy. Well to some men, like my husband this was definitely a turn on! And absolutely he enjoyed fucking her! She made him feel young, exciting, wanted, desirable etc. etc. That is the reality in many affairs.

Gently. This was normal infatuation behaviour. I was not angry, nor pissed off at him for feeling and experiencing sex/intimacy.

I was hugely disappointed and so hurt by his lies and his abandonment. And his heavy drinking.

AND it had nothing to do with ME! I know my worth, my value. I am on the heavy side having had three children a very long time ago. I wear my wrinkles proudly. I love my grey hair. That in no way diminishes who I am or what I want.

My husband started answering honestly in year three. I don’t know how I found the patience for this man-child of mine. Does he remember the sex escapades? Yes, but in time those memories become fuzzy. Does he compare today? I don’t care to know, His actions show how much he enjoys our intimacy. That is what is important to me.

Scared to open up fully to a man who feels like a stranger? Yes. My husband in some ways is a stranger to me. I will keep part of my vulnerability/love to myself. That is one consequence of his cheating. He knows it.

I have learned to accept that I will never have full answers to my questions. My therapist helped me understand how to live with this uncertainty.

But I value his honesty above all. He is staying with me. He is trying to change and his change efforts sometimes fail, as do mine. We persevere. We are a team. Though sometimes we act as if we were on opposite teams…and that’s OK. I no longer fear arguments nor conflicts. He still does. But for now I trust my gut, and my gut says stay the course. My gut tells me keep validating myself, my resilience, my patience, my body. I do it for me primarily and it spills out into our marriage.

What I have seen with my experience, is that it is impossible for two spouses to heal the same way, in the same timeframe, with the same tools, with the same intensity and with the same efforts. What is critical is the honesty and commitment of both spouses to keep on trying. It does not matter who puts in "more effort" or "less effort" as long as both spouses recognize genuine effort.

And as a former BS, I will never again allow myself to be hurt, be diminished, be invalidated, be abused through his actions or comments or answers to my questions.

God bless.

This is a reminder that BS members are not to respond to other BS questions. Please keep your posts on topic to your specific questions.

This needs to be a safe place for the WS to answer authentically without it being up for discussion.

Thank you

WalkinOnEggshelz,

Oops, then please remove my post. I apologize.

Thank you for the responses. I really do appreciate all of them and your honesty.

It’s hard to stay in a relationship where I don’t feel loved, respected or cherished. I don’t know how I can ever get over this. It’s just heartbreaking and it’s not getting any easier. Something just feels off all the time and I think it’s my gut trying to tell me something.

Regardless of how much he enjoyed his affair. I can’t change any of it. But I don’t accept the way he treated me then and I feel even more pissed of with the way he treats me now. Surely he gets just how traumatising and damaging his affair was. It’s very brave of a BS to offer the opportunity of R. I can’t help think deep down my WFH thinks I am the lucky one, in that he didn’t leave me for AP. He’s still very much in defensive mode and the whole you have to let it go is making me worse. I don’t think we are in real R - and certainly don’t feel like Not a boring wife said - that we are team. We go round in circles with his conflict avoidance and his lack of true remorse and empathy.

Basically I have to suck it up and move on and he got the massive cake and really enjoyed eating it. I got the shit sandwich! And it’s left a really crappy taste in my mouth that I can’t get rid of. Sorry to go on but I feel really low right now, stuck down a big black hole and I can’t get out. Why can’t I just leave. He has given me every reason under the sun to divorce. Nobody would blame me - yet I feel so much shame. Shame for staying and shame for leaving.

Can any FWS out there tell me how they helped their BS to believe in their reconciliation efforts? Or is it just up to the BS to heal themselves. How did you show them you were grateful for the second chance and the marriage and the BS were your number one priority. Did it take years? Is my FWH behaviour normal or worrying at this far out?

Tonight he told me I was so annoying after I was triggered because tomorrow we have a meeting in the area FWH used work, where the affair took place. He actually said it’s triggering for him too, like I should have empathy for him. He always ends up playing the victim and I feel so invalidated. Just once I’d like him to just see it from my perspective- to stand in my shoes.

Hi stars,

I understand a bit of what you are saying, at some point the narrative should have changed. I don’t think it’s that he enjoyed the sex at the time that bother you is the lack of change in the narrative. I mean, at the time as others have pointed out there is a newness, it’s a fantasy world, and it’s also forbidden.

Our lens should change. It’s hard to look back with any fondness over that time because it wasn’t ever worth it. I think between his other behaviors of playing the victim, his lack of empathy, it adds up to someone who is not showing remorse, showing you that you are cherished, or trying to truly amend anything.

I enjoyed the sex and attention at the time of my affair. At the same time, I look back at that time and I hate who I was, what I was doing, what it did to my husband, myself, our family. There is no way I could ever sit and relish it or feel anything but dread when I think about any aspect of it. I think your intuition is speaking and you need to listen.

[This message edited by hikingout at 8:43 PM, Tuesday, August 9th]

Question for WS (perhaps specific to WW).

We are coming up on 20 months past DDAY. We have been separated for the last 14 months but are still trying to reconcile. On DDay and for the next 6 months i would break down uncontrollably on the floor sobbing. This was initially due to the blind-sided nature of it but then continued due to the ongoing affair, lies and gaslighting. During those times my WW would just get a dead look in her eyes -- stone cold.

So my question is after these months when i ask what her about that -- what she was thinking -- what she was feeling the answer i get is 'It is common for WW to do that." Which really does not answer the question. So WS what did it mean to see your BS that broken at the point of impact? What do you think about it now?

Jason,

Personally I had spent a lot of time numbing myself even before the affair. The thing about numbing is that you can’t isolate it to where you only numb good or bad feelings, it’s across the board.

Then during the affair, cognitive dissonance had me justifying my actions because I knew they were wrong. So that is typically where you see most of us rewriting the marriage and being critical of our spouse. We use them as an excuse.

Top that with the fact that many of us ( women especially) then fall limerant in the affair, which is basically an addiction to another person. I had to be treated for OCD as an effort to get away from the intrusive, obsessive thinking. I was about bat shit crazy.

So when I confessed my affair I didn’t have the capacity to have full empathy. I was cold, distant, and very wrapped up in myself. This was not characteristic of me in any way before my affair or by the time I was almost a year into recovery. It was a perfect storm of not having any coping skills, having a major crisis, and then making damaging and horrific decisions that piled a heaping pile of shame that it took years for me to get out from under.

Shame is a feeling that is very unproductive but any pain my husband showed was too much for me to take in because the shame was so big. I didn’t want to deal with the fallout at all, I had walls up for sure.

At the same time, I had gone to IC for two months before deciding to confess against the advice of two separate therapists. So it wasn’t that I didn’t know I was so screwed up but I just was in so much pain I couldn’t see a way out. I would sit by a pond for hours a day a pray and write down things to be thankful for. I was a mess.

Most ws do have a lack of empathy in the beginning. For some, they never had it, never wil have it. However for many it’s a temporary condition from the mental gymnastics they took themselves through in having the affair.

You are not wrong to know your wife didn’t love you during this time, didn’t have concern for you, and those actions are hard to understand. You can read a lot from dr frank Pittman and he describes it so uncannily you know that it’s a very common psychological response.

With that said, I have such remorse that the mismanagement of my life and my decisions caused so much pain to my husband who didn’t deserve it. I learned through the process that I had built up resentments over a lot of unstated and at times unrealistic expectations. I built a wall,and I blamed my husband for the lack of emotional intimacy. In reality I was probably 90 percent responsible for that distance.

After the distance was created, I told myself narratives of my entitlement to do some things for me. Ridiculous. I could have chosen a hobby instead of having an affair.

As I took more and more accountability, I soon realized that I was a big source of our marital issues, 100 Percent the sources of my bad decisions, and as I found the sources and eradicated the shame I had accumulated through my lifetime, self compassion returned, leaving me with a greater space for him and all the damage I caused.

All this to say sometimes we have to have a reckoning with ourselves before we have the capacity to look at all the pain we caused others. No one deserves another chance, but for those who do offer that gift it should be with someone who can probably tell you a little more why they couldn’t take you in. It sounds like she has read a lot, which is important, but by now she should be able to talk about the overwhelming feelings and how she has begun dissecting them and putting them away. Shame and guilt are overwhelming, but unhelpful. It’s remorse ( having the capacity to take in The trauma we dealt another) that can be transformative for the relationship itself. She is right that most ws are not empathetic in the beginning but related it to her journey in a more personal way. (What was she numbing, why, how does she cope with it now, what does she see that she did to you, to herself, etc) I would not be satisfied with her answer either.

[This message edited by hikingout at 8:50 PM, Tuesday, August 9th]

Can any FWS out there tell me how they helped their BS to believe in their reconciliation efforts? Or is it just up to the BS to heal themselves. How did you show them you were grateful for the second chance and the marriage and the BS were your number one priority. Did it take years? Is my FWH behaviour normal or worrying at this far out?

I was very reluctant to help my BS heal, or to do anything on my end to make things easier for him (or for me). It was 2 years before I even cared about wanting to help anyone (including myself). I continued to be angry and pissed-off at the world.

Honestly, I was not grateful for the second chance. I did not see it as the gift of reconciliation (I still don't, and actually dislike that phrase to this day).

None of what I just typed was hidden from my H. Meaning, he knew exactly where my head was at, and he knew I did not care whether he stayed or left.

My H stayed. Not because he didn't have the courage to walk out on me back then (because he definitely did), but because he believed in our ability to turn this thing around. And more importantly, he believed in my ability to turn myself around. We also both believe in "for better or worse".

Eventually, I figured myself out. But I had to want to figure myself out. No one could do that for me. And yes, when I finally quit stewing and brewing and having my own pity-party, I did have a courageous talk with my H, and told him I was ready to act like a grown up.

Note: My H cheated first in our M. I cheated years later. Not a smart move. I wasted years being angry. Years.

My advice to you, in your healing, is to work on freeing yourself from the bitterness of his A. If you want to stay in the M, forgive yourself for staying in the M. It's not wrong to believe in your M or to have hope that eventually your H will get it. Go have fun. Do what you need to do to fulfill yourself (in a healthy way). Love as much, and as hard, as you can. Practice gratitude. Go outside and exercise. There is magic in the sun and fresh air. Your body and mind will thank you!

Love, Marie