SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

I wish it were possible to tag people on this forum! I just wanted to respond to the most recent comments.

Yes, working on yourself is really quite the challenge. My therapist seems good: when I start to explain things using analogies (which I do a lot, both to myself and to others) she guides me away from analogies and generalities and back to the specifics of my feelings. Recently, she has challenged me on my fear - why I'm afraid to express my needs, desires, likes and dislikes in simple terms - and what our marriage means, given the lack of sex at present. Sometimes I feel it easy to respond to what she asks me and other times I'm dumbfounded. What, exactly, am I afraid of?

A few days ago, I plucked up courage to have a conversation with my wife, leading on from the letter. She reiterated that she understood what I was saying in the letter and was grateful that it didn't make her feel guilty. I spoke about my need for physical intimiacy - sex - and she said how she had no natural urge but would be open to developing a physical relationship given that it's important to me, and we discussed some specifics regarding that. She said she was glad we were talking about now and the future, rather than anything "historical" (her word.) More than this was said, of course: I can't reproduce everything here.

I came away from this conversation glad that we'd had it, pleased with how it had gone and, at the same time, with the strong feeling that it can only be part of a much longer process, in which we will face difficulties. Forum members may not believe me when I say I have no desire for her to feel guilty but, at the same time, I do think it's important for her to understand the cloud I've been living under for the last decade and a half - not to punish her, but to bring her gently to an understanding that our marriage will be so much better if we can face what happened together, and make commitments to our relationship in the future.

I'll reiterate something I've believed for a long time, and I've said on this forum: affairs happen. They're part of human nature. Yes, they're bad - but they're a consequence, at least in part, of the very strong influence sex has over our lives which, in reality, we very rarely talk about, especially at the beginning of a relationship. Imagine how that conversation would have gone in my case. Me: "I have an unquenchable sexual attraction towards you, and am intimidated by your past (apparent) sexual confidence;" her: "I've never felt it's a big deal to have one-night stands; sometimes I've done it because I felt I couldn't say 'no'; sometimes I need to feel desired, in an animal sense, by a man who I could never love but perceive as more masculine as you." Obviously, I'm making up my wife's side of that conversation - but that's the point: these feelings exist - something caused her to have sex with another man to the point of intoxication - but, I would argue, these feelings are really pretty normal and common.

As for the natural urge—-

Studies show that women largely have responsive desire. I have some natural desire and initiate sometimes but largely even then it’s because we have been more affectionate around that time or have had extra emotional connection.

For some women, sex can also be transactional. Maybe not even consciously so. It is always my suspicion when men come and report a dead bedroom, yet their ws seemingly had a very sexually charged situation with the ap, I often believe there was some unrealistic expectation of what the payoff would be.

What I mean by that even may not have a lot to do with the AP. It certainly did not in my case.

In an affair there are various stimulants. One, it’s forbidden, so of course the adrenaline that you are doing something you shouldn’t be.(which we can be replicated in marriage by occasionally taking risks - on hikes, long car drives, etc)

Two, the ap isn’t often someone we know in a deep way and we project things onto them- oh he is romantic, or he will cherish me in a way that I never have been. Not in all cases, but in a majority of affairs that have been studied the payoff for women is about emotions and unrealistic expectations, escapism. Three, there is instability so there is a lot more effort to keep this unstable thing going for whatever pay off they are seeking and it’s really just their own narrative they are putting on it. Anyway, that’s my view of why someone could be more hyper sexual in an affair.

As far as building a better physical connection- if you all aren’t affectionate, change that habit and be intentional about it without the expectation of sex. Embrace more, kiss more. Give each other massages. Both of you should become more intentional about non-sexual bids for affection.

The other thing that surprisingly helped us in the aftermath of the affair was we had gone to one of the Gottman conferences and the best part of it were these question cards we took turns with. You can get the app that has them or they sell them as a card deck. Take an hour here or there and do this. It’s a great way to spend time in each others emotional world and while the questions seemed simple we had conversations that were enlightening and very connecting.

Go on dates, trips, add novelty where you can.

I suspect that if you strengthen your emotional connection, and non-sexual physical affection, this will help. Also- I can understand how over time you have probably stopped initiating because of her lack of interest being so deeply rejecting. We had to have a lot of discussions around in order to overcome that to create a system that creates less risk for both partners.

It sounds like things are moving in the right direction. At least she sounds willing to work on it.

Thank you, hikingout: that's a great and useful reply. Not much else to say really. I'm continuing with therapy and I'm going to keep on with it, until I feel better - then a bit longer, with the option of resuming should I feel it necessary. I know as well that any insights I have during therapy need to be translated into some sort of action - the types of thing that you describe. That's the hard part!

@hikingout post #40:

I stand by what I wrote and how I wrote it.

The story of many fWWs and former female MHs here on SI tends to go something like this: I was in love when I married my husband. But then I had an affair because I was resentful or vulnerable to flattery. In my work and in my efforts to R, I came to true remorse and rediscovered integrity and realized how wrong I was thinking before and how much I truly love my H way more than I ever loved AP. It's no secret that I furrow my brow and shake my head no at a lot of this. This may be true for the fWW on here but I really don't think any of this is close to being true for a lot of WWs.

In mean, I do understand, it is I'm going to guess much harder for a fWS to stick around SI if this is not quite their story. But my thoughts on this still stand. What I have observed in regards to marriage has made me a lot more cynical about human nature:

--Many people marry their spouse not truly being in love with them, i.e., they settled. On that note, some people marry for money, he is a good provider and the respectable safe choice (even though he doesn't really get her wet), he was never that attracted to her but she is the first woman who gave him his sexual release, ect.

--Many people are genuinely more attracted to their AP than they ever were to their spouse. And they feel more of an emotional connection.

--Many to most BHs who stay, going by anecdotal evidence, are pretty miserable, tied to a woman who barely loves him and who hardly respects him--nevermind has sexual desire for him.

Now we cannot change Eric's story's beginning, but I truly do hope that the ending of his story is truly fulfilling to him. He deserves to have the real deal kicked to him.

[This message edited by WontBeFooledAgai at 2:10 PM, Friday, April 17th]

Many people are genuinely more attracted to their AP than they ever were to their spouse. And they feel more of an emotional connection.

If you didn’t know the AP at the time of the wedding then obviously this cannot be true.

I think the above quote may be true for a period of time. Only exception would be for those that cheat with the same AP before & during the marriage.

^^^ Oh it absolutely can be true, no matter when WW met any of her APs! I don't even see a rational as to why it could not be true.

[This message edited by WontBeFooledAgai at 9:13 PM, Thursday, April 16th]

** Member to Member ** (but my mod hat is on)

We have here a number of unsubstantiated generalizations about men.

Someone, I don't remember who, said they focus on a male perspective because they're male, so they can't speak for women.

The thing is, no single man and no small group of men knows enough to speak for men, either - one can speak only for oneself.

I don't understand how a person gives themself a pass on speaking without sense or permission for one gender without giving themself a pass on speaking for another gender. Speaking for others without data and without permission is committing the same fallacy no matter who one presumes to speak for.

There's no need to violate the 'no (over-)generalization guideline.

*****

I agree there are men who look miserable in R. I believe Eric accepts some things from his W that I don't think I would, but I could be wrong. In any case, Eric's posts don't show misery - they've been showing optimism and confidence, with good reason.

So I'm reluctant to judge or draw conclusions about my fellow SI members. Maybe they include all relevant data in their posts - in all likelihood, however, none of us do that. We're all too complex to be totally accurate in posting a few words on the web.

My reco is: be slow to judge, and be slow to draw conclusions, because we don't know much about each other here.

*****

As far as I can see, WHes who redeem themselves say essentially the same thing that WWs do. Don't get me wrong - as a BH, I had a hard time. It's just that I think WHes stand on the same moral low ground that WWs do. A remorseful WW is still a WS. A remorseful WH is still a WS. They should never have needed to redeem themselves. Still, I can accept a redeemed WS as a brother or sister. I won't do that for an unredeemed WS, of any gender. I just haven't seen meaningful differences between genders. Maybe that's because I focus on healing, surviving, and thriving instead of endless analysis of how s/he did me wrong.

I think there may be differences between men and women that affect healing, but I haven't seen any in my own experience or reading about infidelity, which includes 15+ years on SI.

And healing is what counts, because it's healing from being betrayed that leads to surviving and thriving.

And this is crucial: one heals as an individual, not as a member of a group. One heals by doing what one needs to do for themself. IMO, it's best to focus on figuring out and doing what one needs to do.

That means looking inside, not looking outside, which can tell one only what other people have needed to do to heal them.

[This message edited by SI Staff at 5:45 PM, Friday, April 17th]

I have posted on this forum, and others, several times and discussions often reach the same conclusion: "Why are you still married?" or, equivalently, "What are you getting from your marriage?" Coincidentally, my therapist has led me towards a very similar question, though I can't remember the exact words she used in reflecting it back to me: something like, "You say you and your wife love each other, but she had an affair and there's no sex. So what does that love look like?" These, of course, are very challenging questions - but that's why I'm here, and why I go to therapy: to be challenged. I would say I'm making progress; at least, I'm coming to a clear understanding that I have the right, and probably the responsibility, to express my feelings and to have them heard. So, yes, my wife and I have had a couple of difficult conversations recently, but I still need to tell her that I can't tolerate areas of our relationship we can't visit: the affair, and why we don't have a physical relationship. Therefore, I will be addressing those things with her, but I want to do it in a tactful and "skilful" way. I don't want to just go blundering in, so that she shuts down and progress becomes even more difficult.

There are several things people on this thread have said which are helpful. Most recently, this:

In any case, Eric's posts don't show misery - they've been showing optimism and confidence, with good reason.

I'm doing everything I can to strengthen my confidence, so that I can speak my feelings simply and clearly, without bitterness, but without avoidance. And I do have a certain degree of optimism; despite everything that has happened, that's a good thing, provided that I am focussing on the best possible realistic outcome.