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Ah. If we're extending the definition to include subconscious motivations, then I can think of several affairs on SI that would qualify as an intentional Fuck You to the BS.

I don’t know about punishment.

But I think in many affairs, including my own there are resentments built up. In my situation, I was in denial about a lot of that.

While unwinding it all I realized the resentments I harbored were my fault. I never spoke up, I never requested a change, and worst of all I was blaming him for things I caused. (Example: my people pleasing was about getting him to love me, and I kept escalating it to get more love. It wasn’t working that way and it was all transactional)

I don’t want to punish him. Consciously at least. I think it was more I was a coward who couldn’t ask for a divorce when that was what I thought I wanted at the time.

I had to come to terms with I needed to learn how to make myself happy instead of expecting others to do it for me. I think a lot of times the ws has convinced themselves the bs is not providing something they should have provided for themselves. And that can kind of ferment to a toxic cocktail.

I lacked courage to ask for change, or ask for a divorce so I started the affair subconsciously wanting to blow up the marriage. Not specifically to punish but because my thoughts and feelings had become Toxic due to lack of management.

[This message edited by hikingout at 8:19 AM, Tuesday, May 30th]

Hikingout...

Thank you for this response.

When I go back and think about that movie, I guess "Resentment" might have been a better word for them to use than "Punishment". As I previously mentioned, it was a Filipino movie with about 1/2 of the words spoken in English and the rest had subtitles. Maybe the screenwriters should have used the word "Resentment" in lieu of "Punishment" because it was more fitting.

However, as I recall, the BS used the word "Punishment" once... and once he said "Punishing".

Twice the cheating wife used the word "Punish"... once when she was responding to his accusation of having an affair as a way to punish him; she said she did not "punish" him... and once she told her gay friend that maybe she had "Punished" her husband by having her affair.

OTOH, she did twice very overtly speak to her husband in a very resentful "in your face" manner.

So, perhaps resentment should have been the word the screenwriters used instead of punishing or punishment or punish.

I could see where one of the motivations for beginning an affair could be a lot of resentment buildup and that is one of reasons or excuses a cheater might use.

You brought up a very interesting insight about being such a coward that you had an affair hoping to "blow up" your marriage. Your people pleasing attitude. Over my lifetime I have known many people that go out of their way to please others and I have found those types of personalities to be very shy and conflict avoidant in most intercourse with others. I could see where that type of personality might have an affair as sending a subliminal signal that they wanted out of their marriage.

Fortunately, or unfortunately, depending on how you look at it, I have never been shy or retiring. I have always been outgoing and once an industrial phycologist described me as having a very "strong" personality. Just the way I am.

I could never view you as the shy type

[This message edited by lrpprl at 1:13 PM, Tuesday, May 30th]

I am not shy actually. It’s more complex than that.

I don’t think I was shy with my husband. I think I was passive/aggressive with my husband. And I brought up my feelings in our marriage to a certain extent. I say certain extent because what I understood about my wants and needs is different than what I understand today. My boundaries over myself are different today.

The resentments fueled entitlement, yes. But at the same time I was convinced my husband didn’t love me, that he wanted a servant and and employee rather than a wife. I spent over a year working 18 hour days. We had our last kid at home for her senior year, he was building a business he needed significant help with and I was a CEO of a small company of about 30 employees. I was burned out and we did nothing but fight if we had time.

Did he deserve and affair? God no. Noone deserves that. I should have become serious about my boundaries and taking better care of me. Or asked for a divorce. Anything else.

Looking back on it he will tell you that he saw I was struggling and didn’t have concerns, he thought it was temporary and would resolve and we would get through it. I had diagnosed emotional exhaustion at the time my affair started.

That being said I take full accountability. I made a lot of bad decisions in managing my own life, I felt unworthy of love and believed I needed to prove myself worthy. But it never seemed to be proven to anyone. It was all dysfunctional in a way that has nothing to do with shyness. And I made the decision to have an affair, and that spoke volumes about my character. Shy is a personality trait and not often a dysfunctional one.

I also do not think it has anything to do with people pleasing. People pleasing is about feeling unworthy of love. And eventually that causes you to be open to receiving less and less from your partner and doing more to prove yourself. It leads to dead feelings inside towards them. I don’t think you have to be shy to people please, those two things come from different places.

[This message edited by hikingout at 4:18 PM, Tuesday, May 30th]

Thanks. I appreciate those distinctions and your response. I had never given much thought to the subject. My wife has always been on the shy side, however, one should never cross one of her boundaries... they would get an ear full

For those of you who wrote a timeline, what were your worst fears about the timeline? Did you worry about how it might be put to use? Did you worry it might trap you in a lie? Did it compel you to reveal a little more? Were there things you intentionally left out?

For those of you who wrote a timeline, what were your worst fears about the timeline? Did you worry about how it might be put to use? Did you worry it might trap you in a lie? Did it compel you to reveal a little more? Were there things you intentionally left out?

The night I wrote everything out was the night that I finally let go of the outcome. Up until then, I was so consumed with fear of the end of my marriage that I just couldn't bring myself to come clean. The timeline was only possible because I saw something even worse than the destruction of my marriage, which was the destruction of my BH. It finally, finally clicked that even if something I wrote was a deal breaker for him, it wasn't my choice to make.

Writing it all down helped me step back from my minimizing instincts. I had time to look at what I had just written, challenge myself, and edit to give a clearer picture. Oddly enough, the one thing that I remember slipping through the gut checkpoint was an account of what I was thinking when OM held my hand. Given the graphic things I wrote in that timeline, it's crazy that I chose to hold back on something relatively minor, but small lies with bigger implications were my Achilles heel. (I caught and corrected it on a later reading.)

That timeline has been such a useful tool, because the difference between telling almost all the truth and all the truth is vaster than I ever imagined. Now that it's all out, the last thing I ever want to do is to create anything new that I would have to confess. It's so damn freeing to know that if my BH said he'd scheduled a poly tomorrow, I would be fine. I have nothing more to disclose.

That's how I feel now, of course. In the moment, it was terrifying to give the last of my power away. I felt a surreality that was ironically similar to the affair -- like there was no way this was actually me, deliberately putting my head in the noose.

Stillconfused2022

I didn't write a timeline.

We emailed and texted a ton, but it took the form of a Q&A

My BW and I spent many nights over several months talking over the details of my A, my frame of mind, my actions, my AP's actions, etc.

In some ways I found it quite effective for us, as my BW was analyzing everything and making me see things, and understand more than I had, and also we were able to tease out a lot more detail as the convos went on.

Timelines are great. But realize that things will be missed. It is more like you can expect a timeline Rev0 and then X number of addendums as you dig into things. That doesn't always mean there were trickle truths. In my case I found I was amazed at the details I could recall after going over the points in different ways with my BW.

To your question though - I had no fear at that point. I laid myself bare for the first time in my life and I was refreshed. It was kind of like that moment of realization that sharing my passwords is a good thing. That is an immeasurably hard thing for a wayward to bring themselves to. It really was all due to my BW being analytical with me. It helped me open up more.

MCS: thank you for your reply. It sounds like you found a process that worked for you guys. I am glad to hear you were honest.

BSR: would it be uncomfortable to share what you said you were thinking during the hand holding. Originally and then later?

My question for the WS is this, especially for those who were full TT....

What was your "come to Jesus moment"?

What was the event or trigger that made you pivot and tell the full truth?

What was the trigger that made you say, I can't be like this anymore, I have to change my ways?

My grandmother was one of the sweetest truly Christian women I have ever met. She was so loving and kind and respected.

But she told the story of how she got "saved" as a young lady. SHe talked about running around on her BF and having multiple sex partners and every sin imaginable. She said that there was a point where she said that she "was just sick of herself".

What made you sick of yourself?

[This message edited by TrayDee at 6:29 AM, Thursday, June 1st]

I’d love to hear from a wayward (especially a woman, but man okay too) who believed what their affair partner told them. My husband’s affair partner was also married, so a cheater and liar too, but for some reason allowed herself to believe that she was the one person he didn’t lie to. She believed all the BS he told her was real while he only lied to me?🤷‍♀️ how does one get to that point of delusion? She truly felt like the betrayed one when it came out and WS dropped her cruelly and right away. She was angry that he was such a liar? How did she not see she was just as bad? Do waywards think that as long as they aren’t lying to their affair partner then somehow they are a respectable liar?

Hi, I am a female ws, married too.

So, you are asking a rational question about something irrational.

Many women like myself subconsciously got into an affair because we are seeking something that makes us happy. Many affairs are born of existential crisis. I believed my AP because I needed to believe my AP. I needed those illusions to remain in my fantasy and hide from my problems.

Many affairs become addictive in the same way gambling does. They start out with conscious choices and then you can’t stop because you need to keep chasing the highs.

If I allowed myself to see the situation for what it was that would not help prop me up, make me happy. I needed to keep getting the thing that made me feel alive. (Primary validation)

It didn’t make me feel alive because of him, but an actual chemical reaction in my brain. Making just one more bet, losing, and needing to try once more. Affairs are often delusional at least on one side of it if not both. And the ups and downs of them make those highs higher.

But it’s not like when you are lit up because you are actually in love. It’s a desperate low place to be to be digging for something there that will me never truly be available to you. It has many of the same characteristics as trauma bonds because of the often roller coaster an affair actually is. And it has very little goodwill for that other person actually attached.

[This message edited by hikingout at 4:33 AM, Tuesday, June 6th]

Hiking Out,
Thanks for replying. Five years out this is the one thing I still struggle to stomach or fathom in the least. She was pissed, heartbroken, and scorned. She was the victim (well we both were in her eyes) 🙄. Yet, she was the one who at least knew he was a liar. She knew she wAs sharing him. She had all the choices and knew the score, yet still claims to be the mislead and betrayed. Angers me and makes me happy at the same time. Weird. Husband left her almost giddily… (well except for the shit storm at home) which he said was the reason he cowardly strung her along so long to begin with. He avoided it as long as he could. Anyways, I’d like to think she has grown and developed a similar perspective as you, but I’ve heard recent stories from mutual "friends" that this is not the case.

Hikingout: in any affair there are numberless lies which boththe wayward spouse and the AP tell, and the very worst, most destructive lies are those they repeatedly tell themselves. In my WW's 15 month long affair with her immediate supervisor a surgeon at the hospital where she worked as an RN she told herself that the deep.cloak of secrecy they created by consummation the affair in private rooms on the hospital premises would be sufficient to keep me in the dark. Then too, she told herself that even if I found out about her twice weekly honking sessions, I would get over it quickly...
Some of the lies they told each other were fascinating too..but then in a fantasy lies have a currency and value more effective than the truth.
And you're absolutely correct about how empathy towards the BS collapses under the weight of revisionist narrative creation.I vividly recall how I was dismissed, belittled, humiliated, rejected, and cruelly scorned ad her dopamine flame addiction to her AP burned her up and the serotonin levels dropped. The Neuro chemistry explains a lot about changes in her demeanor, and still didn't make it any easier to forgive her, something I have to consciously do every day...and as for forgetting? It will always be a scar on my heart til the day I die.

Othersideofhell,

I know that not everyone grows from these things. They just go out and repeat the same things until the lesson is learned.

The ap likely had a love addiction, as did I. After the A ended, I saw two choices. One, I could see if I could be "fixed" or two latch on to someone else to avoid the pain of the dopamine withdrawal. I chose path A but I can’t say that I didnt wonder around in the wilderness for a long time afterwards. It’s been a reckoning for me.

At some point it will become a reckoning for her or it won’t but the longer on the path there is more to clean up. So on the one hand the ap is getting her karma, on the other it would be nice to know there was a life lesson that cost her something to learn. I feel that way about my husbands ap too.

[This message edited by hikingout at 5:57 AM, Tuesday, June 6th]

A question for WS relating somewhat to my situation.
Have any WS started a PA with a "player" as in someone that was more attractive or even had a much better profession than their BS thinking that the player was really interested in them as a complete person not just a sex puppet only to be dropped like a ball as soon as they have had fun and moved on to their next conquest? Do you think you would ever fall for one of these types of low life again hoping that they may stick around to boost your ego?
This is what my wife did to me about 22 years ago but for some reason I can't put my finger on it. I just keep thinking that if someone showed an interest in her again, she would jump ship.

Hi,

So, in my situation the AP was a married man who was a philanderer. So I think the term "player" is appropriate.

As far as social status or money, he didn’t have anything at all on my husband. My husband is a high earner this man was a high earner. Hell, at the time I was a high earner as well. I could have supported myself nicely all on my own. I tend to think women (though not all women, and this might fit your wife, it may not) have affairs for emotional reasons.

So let me break down what that looks like, removing status or money. I am not saying that couldn’t have added to the fantasy, but I doubt it was the driving factor. (Though fully admit it’s possible). Last disclaimer: what I am about to say is disgusting and in no way do I blame my affair in anyone but myself today:

-"players" are good at what they do. They know what women want to hear. They know how to charm them, they prey on their weaknesses and insecurities. They get the woman to believe they are magical.

-the women who are susceptible to them are typically low self esteem at that time. The AP’s lack of emotional availability is the challenge that drives behavior. The fact they are hard to win, whether it’s because they are married or just a commitment-phobe, makes the challenge become "if I am truly magical I can win him over"

So it becomes a situation where they subconsciously know the guy is full of shit but they go on a quest to win him over because if they do win then it is the ultimate validation of what the AP is telling them. In other words, they don’t believe what he is saying to them is fully true so now it’s a quest to get it to be true so the validation can be affirmed.

Now, you say this was 22 years ago, maybe look at did your wife grow from this?

Personally, I have grown a lot over the six years since my affair. I love myself now, I don’t need someone else to make me feel special. So in that regard I can honestly say hell no, that shit wouldn’t work on me today if I weren’t married. And I would never ever get friendly enough with a member of the opposite sex while married.

I guess the question I always have for men is why don’t you ask her? She is 22 years older and hopefully wiser now. Wouldn’t it be interesting to hear from her perspective? I notice that some bs, especially men, keep things bottled up. After the pain you have gone through don’t you feel you deserve the answer?

[This message edited by hikingout at 7:03 PM, Friday, June 16th]

hikingout (

She is not the type of person to have an honest conversation with. She is extremely defensive and blows up if she is criticized for anything she is the type where nothing is her fault. When she left me and the kids for him, I told her she was being used but she went anyway. Believe me she is not miss world, so I think she just got sucked into a handsome single guy wanting to screw her. I wish I had known more about infidelity back then because when she come back after a few mounts' things just sort of went back to the way they were before no MC no talking about it to each other the closest thing I got to an apology was her coming up to me with her bag in her hand saying you where write.

Believe me I would love to talk to her there is so much I can't remember about that time it's frustrating it seems to be blocked from my mind, but I know if I try to talk to her it would end up being a disaster. What we have now is good and I don't risk it I think it's just too late now to do what I should have done years ago. You may ask what is triggering me now. It's coming up to our 40th wedding anniversary in a few months and it has just brought back all the pain. That's how I found this website Googling why I am like I am at the moment. Sorry about any spelling or grammar mistakes it's not my strong point.

[This message edited by fhtshop at 8:23 PM, Friday, June 16th]

I am sorry to hear your story.

I feel the fact you can’t have an honest conversation with her is probably a big part why this could not heal.

It sounds as thought you rugswept the affair together and never got it out to examine together. Without that, it’s hard to ever be fully a team.

The only salve I have for you is she didn’t cheat in you for what you lacked. She cheated on you because of her own lack. Likely her lack of ability to have an honest conversation is tied to a lack of self esteem and an underlying shame. So do I think she healed what caused her to seek that validation? Probably not. However she may have been able to choose healthier things to validate her.

I think it’s sad though you have been made to feel you have to carry this around after the traumas she put you through.

How hard is it not to want to cheat again? Asking those with multiple DD. Is it like a drug? A fix? You know it is going to be exciting even if you get caught again. You will feel good even though yout BS is crushed? I know it doesnt make sense but why keepdoing it?