SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

As I’ve said to others, to thank me for writing on SI is like thanking a drowning man for clinging to a life preserver. I did it for me. But I am glad that my story was a means by which so much wisdom could be poured out and so help others.

Your wife was unable to, ultimately, find empathy/true remorse. How do imagine the "Virginity Problem" might have asserted itself in the presence of empathy/remorse? Could that "casual disgrace" of something so precious to you still possibly have been too much, even in the face of her being genuine? Again..unfair question I know...and even beyond that, I know I am the only one who can make that determination for myself, but still, I can't resist asking. Men in our position (with the Virginity Problem as it specifically relates to being sexually betrayed) seem so, anectdotally at least, RARE, I just have to ask.

In the grand scheme of things, I think it was a minor factor for me. Like she used a serrated knife instead of a smooth one to stab me in the back. It’s maybe a little more damage. The stabbing is the real problem.

I don’t believe that it would have stood in the way of R if my wife had been remorseful and honest. There were much bigger things in my mind that I was prepared to overcome, and even larger had, in order to R.

I don’t hold the same sacredness view of sex anymore. The affair destroyed it, and I’ve looked back at my views of where it came from in the first place and found my reasons questionable. I still have a high view of it, but not the mystical divinity I once held. From your writing, it sounds like you’ve held onto that conviction. Maybe it’s worth asking if you are making too much of sex. Even the most precious thing can be over-valued.

Thanks for posting, wounded healer. I remember some of your threads and posts distinctly, and you come to mind sometimes and I wonder how you’re doing.

Our stories are different in many ways, but I think we come out of the same or similar culture around sex. I was raised in a conservative religious environment where sex was presented as sacred and where saving yourself and preserving your virginity for your spouse was presented as a very high and important goal. I think there was some good in all of it, because it acknowledges the beauty and importance of sex as an intimate, bonding force between human beings who deeply love and are committed to one another. However, I think the messages I got were entwined with a lot of misogyny, and that no important distinctions were made between a committed, healthy exclusivity and jealous control/ownership over a partner’s sexuality. I also think that over-sacralizing sex can keep people from having the more experimental, playful, casual (but still responsible) approach toward sex that allows an individual to figure out and be comfortable with their own sexuality. This may not be relevant to you at all, but I feel like it’s worth saying, at least, because I think we’re coming from similar backgrounds.

I don’t have the same virginity problem you describe, but I do think you’re onto something in terms of how infidelity impacts people whose sexuality has been exclusively or almost exclusively formed and shaped by a long term relationship that you enter into as a teenager/very young adult. My husband and I were 18/19 when we met. My sexual experience prior to him was 1) long term CS abuse and assault, and 2) non-intercourse sexual activity in two short early college relationships. (As an aside, one of those guys was gay; but we weren’t in a setting where he could admit that even to himself, so our relationship was a desperate attempt on his part to make himself straight. It’s actually heartbreaking to look back on that, and it’s another problem with the view of sexuality I was raised with).

My husband’s sexual experience was limited as well; he had sex with one high school girlfriend. In our super conservative Christian college setting that was something he was encouraged to apologize to me for by our pastor in mandatory premarital counseling sessions. Even then I thought that was silly, because I didn’t see myself as the owner of his sexual past, or he of mine. (CSA will give you a pretty jaded view of people waxing eloquent on the sacredness of sex).

Anyway, any healthy development of my own sexuality has been completely in the context of my 27-year relationship with my husband. It was rough starting out because I had so much baggage from the CSA, but we are (or were? Still figuring it out) deeply compatible in many ways in this area. We had normal ups and downs due to life circumstances, and his desire has always been on the higher side than mine, but our norm was reasonably frequent, good to mind blowing sex.

His infidelity wrecked me in this area, though. We had a long period of intense hysterical bonding after DDay, but once that was over I realized I had lost the sense of safety that had allowed me to be experimental and fun and playful and edgy in our sexual relationship. We have sex regularly, and it ranges from ok to good, but the free/playful/mindblowing stuff hasn’t come back for me, much to his dismay. I don’t really share your need for extreme detail about his sexual encounters with his affair partner. I wanted a lot of detail about the affair in general—I badly needed to get as many of the puzzle pieces together as possible—but five years out, I feel almost indifferent to the sexual details. I believe him when he says the sex wasn’t as good as what we had. But it doesn’t really matter, because the real issue is me and where I’m at in terms of my own sexuality and in our sexual relationship. As I struggle with that, I’m trying to feel the feelings and heal and move forward. I don’t know what the outcome will be. Sometimes I feel ok, and other times it feels depressing, though it helps that overall we have a really great, supportive, satisfying, enjoyable relationship.

This is insanely long. I’m sorry. The TLDR of it is 1) be careful of the line between a healthy, honest, exclusive relationship and owning/controlling another person’s sexuality, 2) focusing on your own healing and sexual relationship feels a lot healthier than dwelling on grand ideas of sexuality or hyper focusing on the details of her affair sex, and 3) there are some strong commonalities in the disorientation, long-term pain, and protracted healing processes among people who have experienced betrayal in a good, long term relationship that began early and has spanned all of their adult life. Also 4) I feel you and am so sorry for your pain.

Hey

I saw your post, and have a couple of thoughts. I am 60, and grew up in a conservative Christian environment where sex was for marriage only. I had 2 one night stands on my way to marriage, but the sex was really just a young man’s release-I used these two women ( and they used me as well).

My WW had a higher body count going into our dating relationship. That was ok, it all happened before we got together. We had sex for a year before marriage, and it was how I connected sex and love.

I think for Christian guys who don’t have a big body count, sex is a little mixed up. Sex is "dirty" outside of marriage is what we are taught. It’s not, sex is Gods gift to mankind. Sex is so much better inside a loving safe relationship. However, I know if I and my FWW divorce or she dies, I will continue to have sex with other women. And I think I will enjoy sex outside of marriage without guilt.

I read your story, and just a couple of things.
1. People get behind a keyboard and think they are F. Scott Fitzgerald and writing the great American novel. It’s mostly bullshit.
2. The second guy was probably lying about his penis. His wife had affairs, so he is building himself up. Your wife talking about your penis not measuring to his is bullshit. I know this hurt you real bad, it would hurt any guy. If your wife was truly unhappy with your penis, she would leave. She has already shown herself to be selfish enough. But she has not left and still accepts you-all of you-when you guys make love! If you have not done so, I would tell her how much this hurt you. As an aside, all guys want to think they have a big dick, but in truth, most guys are within a 1/4 inch of each other.
3. Get no more Mr. Nice Guy and read it. Determine who you are, and your wife can join you. Don’t try to meet her.
4. Masterbate. Yes, that "sin" we Christian guys are so embarrassed we do. Do it for your own pleasure, get to know your body. This is not to deny your wife sex, but to enjoy yourself as a man. God gave you the ability to do this, so enjoy yourself. Don’t use porn, just enjoy the experience. If you know your own body and what pleases it, you can teach your wife to please your body as well.

I know how the sex hurt. It sounds like you are not over that. It takes a while, and I thought about it constantly for years. For men, sex with a woman is the ultimate sign of acceptance, so ergo, so your wife’s sex with another guy is the ultimate form of betrayal.

After you fully process the sex, the emotional attachment she had to him comes next. That is what really hurt me-and still does.

I am 26 years out. The sex no longer matters to me. The fact she could risk everything for nothing bothers me. And she could so easily fire me as a husband when we had a good marriage.

Anyway, even though I was not a virgin, I understand your background and why you feel that way. I have not turned my back on my faith-it’s stronger than ever. I am just more realistic.

PM me. If you want, happy to chat

...isn't NOT feeling the feelings the ultimate goal here?

The metaphor that works best for me is:

Feelings are fleeting. That applies both to pleasant and unpleasant feelings. Emotions are reactions to what goes on in the here and now. An emotion is a bodily sensation, and one feels it and thereby processes it out of the body.

For BSes, then, healing is the process of feeling the emotions that come with being betrayed, which lets the feelings go. It takes a long time to process feelings from being betrayed, though, because they come in great quantity and intensity. Also, virtually all of us meet resistances to feeling and letting go, and often it's hard work to take those resistances down.

The ultimate goal, though, is to feel one's feelings as they come up, because feeling lets the emotions go.

*****

Most of us get tied up in thoughts about feelings, rumination, that keep us recycling emotions. Stephen Karpman saw that some people create 'Drama Triangles' out of their rumination.

Ending the rumination - the constant replaying of the trauma - is the ultimate goal, but ruminating is not feeling. It's a barrier to feeling. In fact, one of the best - if not the best - way out of rumination is to ask yourself and answer, 'What am I feeling right now?'

Keep asking until you get to a real feeling - anger, grief, fear, shame.

That’s amazing advice, Sisoon. Thank you.

Happy Weekend Everyone,

I'm away from a reliable way to fully respond to these very thoughtful replies right now, but am reading, reflecting, and will respond more fully as soon as I can.

Thank you all so very much,

WH

[This message edited by Wounded Healer at 9:05 PM, Sunday, May 25th]

WH,

Some will disagree but you are not out of Infidelity. Your wife's Infidelity is not physical or emotional currently but it lives in your mind and soul. It will always remain there! Currently you are consumed by her betrayals with no end in sight for you!

If you stay with her, be prepared to accept this is your life from now on.

Peace to you

Greetings again SI,

I have been absolutely swamped this post-holiday week and am just now coming up for air, but wanted to acknowledge, again, the help I've recieved in this post.

Hiking - Of course I can't thank you enough for basically going point by point in my ramblings with your compassionate desire to help me. Thank you. I am trying to take to heart your observation that, if we feel like and/or tell ourselves we have unique reasons to be deeply (deeplier?) wounded, or that the unique parameters of our situation will be significantly harder to overcome...that that can become self fulfilling. This is pinging some for me and I am trying to listen to it.
As you note, I probably do hold back some. If I had to venture a guess about some potentials there...I think I actually (weird as this is, because I do think I have been pretty visceral at times in my descriptions here on SI) think I am way more devestated by this than I am able to even describe here. I think I hold back some to kind of protect my wife maybe, too. SI is a collection of (lovely I might add) internet stangers here...and I still think I want to make sure I paint wy wife in a fair and honest/positive light light...but the reality is she behaved like a cheap and easy, low rent, piece of @$$. That's likely the worst thing I have ever stated in "public" about her. Weird, as this comes out as I type this. In terms of what I am still afraid of? Again, there's lots of potentials I think...but the one I'd give the best chance to is that I am afraid that this is a dealbreaker...and I do not want it to be. There. I said it. Also, I don't know if this is quite the same dpeth, but I do fear that I will never feel better about this. That I'll be stuck here until death does it part. So many other helfpul observations in your post...cognitive dissonace and my perhaps overvaluation of the affair sex they had. All helpful considerations of course. Also, thanks for the insights into what role you think your affair might have played in your husband's (destructive & inexcusable) response
of having his own. ALL greatly appreciated

Inkhulk - Thanks so much for the reply. So helpful for me to be able hear from someone somewhat in my shoes. It's interesting for me to consider that it was the betrayal that changed your view of sex. As you correctly note, mine didn't. Just sex in terms of my wife did. Thank you again.

Grieving - So much thanks to you for that sharing. I (possibly due to age/stress/trauma brain...as awesome as all that is) am bothered that I did not know or remember your CSA story. As I read your response, I could totally see how, being that your growth into healthy sexual experiences were completely in the context of your husband...that would be absoultely wrecking. I cannot relate to the CSA dynamic, but my sexual "self" being tied completely to my wife connects here. Wrecked. I am so sorry this has not come back for you.
I have been challenged before here (very respectfully) regarding the potentital hangups present in conservative Christian culture regarding a sense of "ownership" of one's spouses's sexuality as well as the misogynistic slants (at the least) that many corners of that religious culture has inherent in it. I have reflected deeply and intentionally through that specific challnege several times during this "stuckness" in this particular trap I find myself in and I just, humbly and honestly, can't see it. I sort of just barely dodged the "purity culture" bullet being an early Gen X'er. I think that whole thing didn't go full throttle until after I was married. That's not to say I wasn't possibly inflenced by it, but perhaps my saving grace, ironically, was that the church I grew up in...was kind of lame. Sex wasn't railed against...it was ignored. I know it's hard to imagine, but I truly feel like these things were somehow hardwired into me. I honestly just kind of decided my sexual ethic/approach/value system on my own as a very young man. Now, when I got to college it was there...the purity stuff and some of that associated negativity (99.9% of the "accountability" talks in my guys dorm was sex related)...but my general approach to sex (save myself for my wife for numerous reasons, but a big one being to spare her the "imagery" and associated assumed distress of me ever being sexual with another person) was formed way before then. If I am being totally transparent, I feel like I was born with some mate for life gene that I can't veto. It feels...weird.
I know it seems (at the VERY least) that I obesess over the sex...well...I do do that...BUT it doesn't feel to me like JUST that. It just feels like it's connected to semething way deeper that I still can't after all this time, identify. IC's have suggested abandonment, powerlessness, all the way up to almost personal/non consensual violation (which actually resonates some) but seems...idk...disengenous to people who HAVE been actually violated. I think I'm rambling now...but just wanted to thank you again for your very helpful and vulnerable sharing. It's very much appreciated.

Sisoon - I have been spending what little moments I have had since your reply honestly trying to parse the difference between a feeling and an emotion...while also reading (a little at least) about drama triangles. I'm not very far with either of those. I know, rationally, this is likely untrue, but any rumination I do seems virtually involuntary to me. I mean, I know how TRIGGERS work and how to do a decent job at avoiding spiraling from something specific...but this whole thing I have been talking about...the sexual part...just seems to be a fairly constant background track in my life. The trauma certainly DOES kind of repeat on a loop for me, but it doesn't at least FEEL like active rumination. It just seems to be running in the background no matter what else I am doing...even up to literal, intentional distracting myself. I will keep looking into the DT and the processing of feelings vs. emotions though, for sure. Thank you again.

I have run out of time (and functioning grey matter) for now. I thank each and every repsondent here. You are helping me.

Blessings,

WH

Wounded Healer - I have skimmed most of these messages, but I had a similar experience as yours where sex with my WW was pretty exclusive (but I wasn't the first person to her). So after my WW's PA, I decided to take some matters into my own hands: I hired a few very high end (and very expensive) escorts to see what sex with other women is all about. These women arguably have the best bodies in the world. Turns out .... sex is just sex. LOL. Everyone can just tell you that, but you have to experience it to know. And that was same for me. Now the sex part of my WW's A doesn't impact me any longer.

Again, this above is just how I approached this and just want to share here. Please don't judge. :)

Please don't compromise your morals like PB has recommended. This site is to help you get out of infidelity, not to recommend continuing in it or becoming a MH.

Wounded Healer,

I use 'emotion' and 'feeling' to refer to something that words can't describe. My reco is to not hang yourself up on differences between the 2 words, since neither describes the phenomenon very well.

Also, I found that my thoughts and feelings about my W were quite separate from my feelings about being betrayed. That is, like you , I had a lot of bonds to my W, and I really wanted her to have a good life. At the same time, that did not mitigate any of the pain I felt. I thought it should, and that slowed down my healing, but they're 2 separate things, I suspect, and healing requires resolving both sets of issues - one's own pain and the connected but separate feelings about one's WS.

IOW, your pain is your pain, no matter how virtuous or unvirtuous your W may be.

My experience, too, was that my pain was so deep and so overwhelming that I couldn't describe it, either.

But it only seems overwhelming. I believe it's impossible to process the pain out of one's body overnight, but I believe it's possible to process it a chunk at a time. It may seem as if the process will never end, but it will.

If your job is healing others, can you use what you say to your clients/patients to help yourself?

but my general approach to sex (save myself for my wife for numerous reasons, but a big one being to spare her the "imagery" and associated assumed distress of me ever being sexual with another person)

I relate to this, but I think you should consider that this is just an expression of your own value of sexual exclusivity that many (probably most) people don’t share. This thing that you regard as precious and sacred, most people don’t give a fuck. And it seems like your wife was one of them. In the spirit of "do unto others as you would have done unto you" you acted in a way that you wanted for yourself, but unless you find someone with a matching value in that area, all you get out of that is a clear conscience (which is a good thing), but not the actually thing you wanted in the first place.

If you read my story, you heard me talk about "The Great Divorce" by CS Lewis. He does such a masterful job in that book of showing how high loves (like that of a mother to her son, or a man to his duty) can get distorted and become problematic. I understand you do have that view of sex. You seem uninterested in asking yourself if you should. If I had a long held conviction against modern medicine and then ended up with cancer, it would seem like a good time to make sure my beliefs were on solid enough foundation to suffer and die for.

[This message edited by InkHulk at 7:32 PM, Saturday, May 31st]

Heyo, Wounded Healer.

I don't post very often, but your situation is pretty much exactly mine. In fact mine got "worse" afterword, because in the authenticity we fostered in building our new marriage, she copped to sexual encounters with another 3 men before me, making me 8th out of 9 total.

Now, everyone who has posted so far, including Pacific Blue, has posted some very excellent, and comprehensive items for your consideration, so I won't really rehash their input. Instead, I'll list some high altitude view changes and alterations that I have had and made in my relationship without advising you in yours at all. If you can benefit from them, great. If not, that is simply the nature of human conversation, and there's nothing wrong with that situation, either.

In no particular order:

(I should add for context that I'm a Christian, church of Christ flavored. (The small "c" is deliberate. IYKYK ))

1) The only thing that had been sacred about our marital sex was me, my purity, and innocence. She is the one who held something sacred, pure, and unique, and took a total dump on it. That marriage is dead, and she killed it. That man, really, is dead, and she killed him. We aren't reconciling, we're building a new relationship, with a new man, and everything is different. Everything is different, because everything was ruined. Everything new has its own set of considerations because it must, in light of the new man and him figuring out how to mpnavigate these new waters.

2) The main reason I stayed with her to build a new relationship is convenience, and to avoid damaging our children. I already know from research and conversation that she's a bit of a freak, and I'm an above- average performer. Sex has gone from being bonding and special, to merely something fun to do, finding another woman who has her characteristics and eagerness would be a hassle. And, well, I'm closing in on 50, so that particular fire just doesn't burn as brightly anymore.

3) She isn't my wife anymore, and never really was. That's a biblical term for a woman who has completely joined herself to a man in purity and total dedication. She didn't bring purity to begin with, and she proved her dedication. Now her official status is "concubine." She hates it, but she's accepted it. Note that I changed this status without malice or bitterness, it's just a fact. She is alwats so worried because of FOO issues that I'll abandon her for some young thing. I told her to pay attention to how many times I've abandoned her in the wake of her adultery while considering myself free to do so. She asked if she's exclusive, I told her I have a desire for monogamy, but she has no demand or right to it.

4) She feels like used and damaged goods...but... honestly she was already that to begin with. If anything, I'm already experienced in dealing with that situation. I accepted it 25 years ago because I was young and horny, and that situation hasn't really substantively changed. It sounds harsh, because it is far from the ideal beginning, far from the hopes I originally had, but it's once again simply a fact I have had to come to terms with. She not unique and special. None of us are. She has her unique needs and issues to work on, and it is my obligation and joy, as her husband, to care for them and for her.

5) No one gets to tell me what to make of my situation. I will manage my self and my house with careful consideration and righteousness, and everyone's participation in it is voluntary. I don't make complaints, I make decisions. My power and energies are always in service to others, including myself, and as such are deserving of respect--never demanding, but deserving. Every conflict must be resolved without abuse or neglect towards anyone, including myself. My business in our home are boundaries, order, safety, and an endless supply of love. When I'm doing this, I'm doing it right.

I said I wouldn't advise you, but perhaps you'll see the value in stepping back from focusing on one very narrow aspect of the situation and seeing where and how it fits in the overall context.

All the best,

-Mindjob

This is somewhat similar to my situation only the positions are reversed. I had been with other women before meeting my wife, but she was a virgin when we met, and I was her first and only until she had a PA. That had always made our relationship even more special to me. It's no longer the case that I've been her one and only. It adds another layer to the betrayal and really bothers me deeply.

WH, I appreciated your long and thoughtful response. I’m glad you’ve had the opportunity to reflect on the traps of purity culture, and that you escaped them on the whole.

Partly in response to you, but more in response to other posts and larger trends on this forum, I have to say I’m uncomfortable with how women’s behavior in an affair is sometimes/often portrayed differently than men’s. There’s this jump to define women as sluts and whores when they cheat, and I find that troubling. I also get disturbed when the Madonna/whore dichotomy pops up. It’s complicated and I’m reluctant to get too deep into it, but I feel like there’s some (unconscious?) misogyny at play here where women are categorized as objects according to their sexual behaviors in a way that men aren’t. Can we not see our cheating spouses as people with significant flaws/issues and proceed accordingly, rather than writing them off into categories like "concubine?" These ways of thinking about women’s behavior seem to hijack healing and reconciliation (if that’s what a betrayed partner is wanting).

But that’s tangential and doesn’t take away from the fact that you are in deep pain and struggling with a long healing arc. I think you’re on to something about being violated by betrayal. I’ve puzzled a lot over how my husband’s betrayal of me felt like a violation on par with the CSA I experienced. I hate even typing out something that raw, and I don’t equate the two things, but there are too many parallels between my emotional experience of them to ignore. When my husband’s affair came to light, I had not given my CSA more than a passing thought in nearly a decade. When I did think about it, it no longer felt very painful. But boy did all that emotional mess rear its ugly head after DDay. Intimate betrayal is a kind of violation, and I think some people feel that more, and it makes their healing arc longer.

I don’t know if this helps or is relevant to you, but I had a quiet, but significant breakthrough in my healing over the past year (I’m 5 years out from DDay). I was in a lot of despair over being four+ years out and feeling like I was still struggling, significantly at times. I started thinking that maybe this is just how it is. Betrayal changes you, and you’re always going to struggle with grief and pain to some degree, and your relationship will never be as good or as close or as fulfilling. The breakthrough occurred when I slowly resolved not to let that be the narrative that controls me. We all want narratives that explain our experiences and values and beliefs, but sometimes those narratives—or even the process of trying to find one—hijacks our healing and progress. I don’t have a very satisfying narrative right now, but instead of spending a lot of energy forming one, I just tell myself I’m on a path of healing, and it takes as long as it takes. I try to focus on the here and now of myself and my relationship and make all the little choices that promote healing and reconciliation. I don’t know what the outcome will be, but the path feels like a positive one. Each year I can look back and things are better for me. I feel more healed, even if it’s slow, and even if I sometimes still feel a visceral pain and sadness over it all.

On the whole, do you feel like you’re on a path toward personal healing, even if it’s slow? That’s the question I ask myself these days when I struggle.

I’ve puzzled a lot over how my husband’s betrayal of me felt like a violation on par with the CSA I experienced.

Your gut instinct isn't ever wrong. It's not detailed, in the way our cogitation is, but I maintain that betrayal is every bit the severity of violation that SA is. It is by no means the same KIND of violation, as you said, but it does violate what SHOULD be. Betrayal torches the most important and valuable thing that we were promised and thought we had, and the effects damage us to the core. Our whole world is wrongfully upended and it leaves us floundering, rudderless, and tryingt to figure out which way is up, all while in excruciating pain. Definitely rises to the lelevelof violation, especially in a marriage where we swore an oath to exactly the opposite at its very beginning.

Can we not see our cheating spouses as people with significant flaws/issues and proceed accordingly, rather than writing them off into categories like "concubine?"

Generally, if women want to keep having relationships with men, they'll eventually have to come to terms with men's opinions about their sexual histories.

Specifically, this is something that I did to clearly define where my spouse stands with me, and it's the closest biblical example that I can find to it. Nothing changed between us. She's married, I am her husband, and she can expect love, support, permanence, and safety from me. Additionally, the only reason I mentioned it here, is the overall idea in this thread, that sex no longer feels sacred for the OP, which is something that I shared in the aftermath of the adultery, specifically due to my Christian- oriented worldview. I did try to make this clear, as well as stating I did this without malice, bitterness, or hate.

I earnestly hope for your continued healing and recovery.

-M

Happy Monday SI,

My continued thanks to all who keep investing in this me-continuing-to-beat-a-dead-horse-to-death thread. As always, I appreciate it immensely.

PB - while I can't go along with your approach, I AM thankful for your perspective that you discovered that sex turned out to be sex with different people. That sex is sex. I think for us "onlies" there's always just a sheer human level of curiosity about that, but it goes on steroids under betrayal circumstances.

Sisoon - thanks so much for the further clarification on feelings/emotions basically being feelings that are beyond description. I have struggled with this over the years and always wind up using the word "cocktail" to describe it...just that mixture I have spoken of, parts rage, parts deep sadness, parts grief and loss, parts disgust and shame and embarassment...ane even still there are layers I can't even get a close enough word to even make the attempt. And for me, the most intense feelings, right, wrong or indifferent, always seem to settle in or around the sex parts. Thank you also for the insight that you had dual things to resolve emotionally...how you felt about your wife and how you felt about the betrayal. And how those are processed separately. Also, my experience I have and have gained as a helper to others is likely the main reason I'm still here still attempting this after all of this time. Thank you again.

Ink - Thanks to you too for your continued investment here. The crazy irony here is that she actually does value exclusivity...obvious insane hypocrisy aside, she readily admits she could not do what I am doing (reconcile under simiiliar circumstances) and also that she would have struggled with me having a long list of priors. She stopped having sex with me during her PA and actually apologized to him once for a single attempt at sex with me during that time that she ultimately shut down. She values exclusivity. What a mindf*ck. Also, I think the reason that I appear disinterested in reevaluating my sexual value system is becuase...I've already done it. 1000 times over actually. Cognitively, there is a straight as an arrow path out of this cursed forest for me...just devalue sex, as you note, just like most everybody does. I guess it is a pretty entrenched value for me. Somewhere in my foundations there is something that says it's, ultimately, best and most, (designed?) to be between two people. As I've noted here a couple of times, a mate for life kind of thing. I don't equate this with the cancer vs. modern medicine analogy. Having this value isn't going to kill me, and the issues and nuances are also nowhere near as clear. But I obviously DO see the increased suffering, prolonged healing timeline etc. this might (will?) mean for me. I guess, at this point, I'd just conclude that sometimes valuing/overvaluing something is...costly. I do also appreciate the Great Divorce reference as well. I need to revisit those portions I am sure.

Grieving - So much grace and gentle thoughfulness as always in your contributions. I am glad for your participation here.
I do, as a whole, absolutely agree with your sensitive observations that unfair dichotomies and shame labels are so easily attached, particularly to women waywards in general as it relates to infidelity. I did that myself here even in this thread (but I assuure you it wasn't easy...not that it makes much difference?). That is the "rawest" thing I'v ever uttered in "public" about her. In my defense (not that I am actually defending), it's an unfiltered raw thing. My dad cheated on my mom when I was 20 years old...and I had the exact same feeling (obviously in a different context) about him. That he was destroying his family with his d*ck...and also have the same sentiments, maybe even WORSE, for cheating husbands. Men behaving badly sexaully is not one ounce less disgusting and shame worthy, often times it's more (to me anyway.) But I DO see what you speak of. And yes, this may be tangental, but perhaps our repsonse to cheaters in GENERAL that simply reduces them to their physical acts of betrayal is unfair all around. My wife being a "cheap piece of @$$...my dad thinking with his d*ck. It was way more complicated than that in both regards. But...when our soul flesh is on fire with the napalm of betrayal (even years later..like us)...raw, visceral, and perhaps even inappropriate thoughts, feeling, words, sentiments...happen. But we do do well to do what we can to not let those things develop into fixtures in us. Harder done than said. I've proabbly said too much already with this, but can't resist this further thing...it was the added layer of the shocking speed for me that makes my head spin in my wife's case. And I know I am certainly not alone in that. But I mean, some messaging, a quick cheap dinner, and then zero to nudity in light speed. I mean, at the risk of perpetrating further stereotypes, my wife was likely his "easiest" "conquest" ever. I don't think that's slut shaming...but it is SOMETHING, you know? Since I'm on a roll, I'll go even one further. Akin to what Ink is getting at a little bit in terms of looking at just devaluing sex a bit, along with your thoughts on harshly judging female sexual behavior here...there are fleeeting moments I have that feel like twinges of relief when something like this pieces together occasionally in my heart/mind/soul:

I don't blame her. This man was an Adonis. Pro trainer. Objectively, physically and sexuallly speaking only...any woman's dream. He might make any woman's, with any cracks in her character, or FOO, or midlife crap etc...knees buckle. Of course any woman would want to have sex with him. My wife likes sex. He's insanely sexy/sexual. The pure physical MATH of just that much makes it, even how "easy" she was...logical at least, if not understandable. If I can keep this particular thought process kind of captive, I can see a way out sorta with this. The trouble is, I can't keep a grip on this. And again, this doesn't account for any betrayal dynamics at all of course, but I have noted if I could keep the sex part on just a purely physical level...I can see how that might help me. I guess it's neither here nor there since I can't seem to do it anyway.
Also, thank you so much for that last insight in your post. It seems akin to what Hiking has said here about making a decision to be okay not being okay. I too feel that "late in the game" sort of pressure (shame?) to be much less affected by this by this time (I am 4 years out from final DDay). It does take the edge off to just let it be what it is somewhat. I mean, I have done IC, read, study...pray. It sort of actaully IS just what it is right now. Just letting myself be okay with that for now might be key in actually getting better. I guess we will see. Thank you again. Sincerely.

Thanks also to Mindjob and Pogre for your concern and time and sharing here as well. I appreciate all of your perspectives.

Blessings,

WH

Mindjob, I don’t fully understand (or maybe I understand and just don’t agree) with your statement that women have to come to terms with men’s view of their sexual history if they want to have relationships with them. I feel like how my partner views my sexual history is important and relevant, but why would I have to come to terms with how other men see it? Also, I don’t think our view of someone’s history or sexual activity has to be set in stone; as we age and change and grow and get new info, our views can change too.

But I feel like I’m off track and hijacking a bit, and more importantly, I think you have some wise words about violation, and I appreciate your kindness and well wishes a lot.

WH, as I think about what you’ve posted and try to puzzle through the mess of sex and betrayal in my own life, I wonder if the answer isn’t so much to devalue sex as it is to acknowledge and somehow absorb how complex sex is, and how many different things it can be. It can be casual and playful, shallow and devoid of meaning, merely procreative, or the most intense, intimate bonding of body and soul between two people. It can be misguided, regrettable, fun, responsible, irresponsible, transactional, selfish, selfless, reciprocal, delusional, manipulative. It is fraught with culture, power, and gender dynamics, and it can be used as a tool to violate, terrorize, and demean. But I think you can hold onto a deep conviction that sex is special and sacred while acknowledging that it can be a lot of other things too.

But it’s all really difficult and painful. I think I struggle with my own post-betrayal sexuality because sex is closely tied to the things in my life that have hurt me the most. It’s weird, I don’t feel very hung up on my husband’s affair sex, but the betrayal had a profoundly negative impact on my emotions related to sex and on my sexual expression.

This is a lot. I’m not sure I like being this vulnerable on the internet.

Hmmm ... how much of your angst comes from the mistakes you say you made during the last 15/16 years? How satisfied are you with your actions in your recovery and R?

You outline some mistakes, like getting hoodwinked by your W and not realizing how much work is required to recover. Do you beat yourself up for trusting your W? Because about the only way not to be duped by one's WS is to not trust them. What sort of partnership would that be?

You also outline some very constructive actions, like staying in touch with your love for your W, deciding to ask your questions and get answers, dealing with your W's emails - not just the comparison between you and the ap, but also the expressions of love and desire to leave and be with ap.

I see a lot of strength and a lot of actions that set you up for real healing. I think other readers would not use the same words I do, but I expect they'd see the strength, and they'd see that you got yourself onto a healing path.

But external validation isn't enough. What really matters is the story you tell yourself about what you've done.

I apologize if I've addressed the wrong tree in this forest.

*****

I do think you might get closer to where you want to be if you reframe how you think of the problem. You seem pretty comfortable and. You don't really write like someone who regrets your choice.

IMO, the sexual betrayal is horrendous on its own, irrespective of how many partners the BS had.

I'm writing to suggest that your focus on the virginity question is keeping you from fully comprehending the impact of the sexual betrayal, the comparisons, the lies, etc., etc., etc.

Also, d-days 14 years apart strike me as a much bigger burden that multiple d-days close together. IOW, give yourself a break. Remind yourself that you took in the betrayal and then found out it was much worse than it seems. As I say, I think that adds to your burden.

For me, the lies were the worst part of my W's A. I had loved her for 45 years, and she never took in that I loved her for who she was.

But the sexual betrayal hit me on a very visceral level.

Yup, Hiking is right - it's OK not to be OK with any of this.

Greetings again SI,

My apologies for letting the most recent gifts given in this thread sit so long without acknowledgment. I have been extraordinarily buried in work and family this last week or so. I think daylight is coming soon in that regard...but this has caused this delay.

I am super appreciative of the most recent replies. Mindjob. Sisoon. Grieving. Thank you.

It's so so odd how, even 10 days, can feel like such a different spot in the cycle of healing. I was in a pretty visceral pain when I first ventured to put my original post in this thread out there. That visceral-ness is a lot less today than it was on the 2nd. I guess I say this because, as I re-read some of these replies, they hit different today than even last week. And I missed some things in that more visceral spot that I want to continue conversation on if there's still interest here.

Grieving...my goodness...I kinda skied right over your connection to the violation things as it related to your husband's betrayal...how you recognized that the emotions it uncaged were very similar to your CSA experience. (I also note you expressing not being sure about being THIS vulnerable on the internet...which I 1000% respect, so I am not asking for a personal reply to this...just processing out loud here a bit...and your vulnerable sharing of that was a catalyst for for a lot of what follows here...but please do not feel any need to say anything further about it...what you have already shared has been super helpful just to know that the association is legit... thank you).

The violation thing has been the thing, through alllll the counseling journey that I resonated with the most. Honestly, I am not sure my counselors were best equipped to go "that far" with me. They mostly just validated the feeling wiihtout a whole lot more evaluation of it. But I feel it acutely. A powerlessness combined with somehting akin to assault (I am going with that term...but am using it very loosely and respectfully). Personally. Almost like OM was f*cking ME...without consent (now I'm probably treading at MY vulnerability limit here...). But this is the truth of what I feel.

I am not sure if this is related, and I hesitiate to even bring it up...but IDK...SI has always had such insight...I'm going out on more than a bit of limb here...but here goes I guess...

One particular detail about her first encounter with him is just...sigh. In their first sexual encounter, after extended foreplay, his first intercourse move was to penetrate her anally...without invitation, conversation, expectation, preparation, or consent. She said it was horrific...hated it...pain...did not want it or, obviously enjoy it at all, couldn't wait for it to be over. He did that to completion...rolled off...and fell asleep when she went to bathe afterwards. As a sidenote, we had experienced this together occasionally, in moments of particualr passion, but done with much preparation, necessary precauction, and, well the associated freaking LOVE that goes along with such an insanely intimate physical act. So..I know...she needs a lot of loving, gentle, aided, setup for this. We learned this the hard way by experiencing the consequences of FAILING to do it this way early in our exploration. Anyway...the bottom line? She ultimately "consented". Bit her lip in the dark. Endured it. For him (that she returned to him for further encounters blows my mind even still). Anyway.....ALLLLLLLlllll of that horrow show scene setup to say....what an absolute midfuck of emotional turmoil that particular "scene" set off in me. I, simultaneously, feel:

The BLIND RAGE of a husband who's wife has been sexually assaulted.

GRIEF and compassion...for HER...at having had this done to her.

ANGER...at HER for CHOOSING to place herself in that situation.

Sadness? Disgust? Dismay?...that she chose to endure it.

Some primal something...to SCREAM into that scene...TELL HIM NO!!! TELL HIM TO STOP!!!

And then of course...betrayal...she is there with him because she had rejected me. Wrecked.

Failure? To protect her.

I want to show up like Rambo into that scene, throw the OM into a wood chipper, scoop her up and hug the cotton out of her, then scream into her face, WHAT THE F*CK ARE YOU DOING!

So wow. Writing that out...in print. Damn. Just damn.

I had a lot more to say and wanted to respond more directly to Grieving and Sisoon, but I think I need to step away from the keyboard for a sec.

I don't want to just leave this totally hanging though. I just wonder, is it possible that when you are so deeply enmeshed, entwined, melded, melted, and welded..intimatelay with and to your mate...that their own "assault" and it's associated traumas and emotional hurricanes...can transfer? Especially when it's mixed with BETRAYAL? Again...DAMN. But...I know that this "feeling" of violation I have is not just limited to this particular "scene"...I feel it throughout all of the affair...especially the sexual parts of course. But I am wondering if this specific twist, as it were, takes that feeling of violation for me, and gamma rays it into an all out raging hulk that keeps beating the shit out of me.

And...I don't know why...and I have outstanding advice and things to chew on in regards to it...but it feels like we are so far into the weeds away from the original topic here...but maybe not. I think that she being my only sexual partner STILL would seem to make this sense of violation...even more violating. IDK. WHY DO I FEEL THIS? I'm pretty sure I am officially off the rails now.

I am already second guessing even writing this out...and I will probably regret posting this at some point...but here I go anyway.

Thank you for listening SI,

WH

[This message edited by Wounded Healer at 11:37 PM, Wednesday, June 11th]