SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

I myself am right around the 3-month mark after finding out about my ww's "first affair." Until I found this forum a few weeks ago I felt that my situation was very unique.

March 2009 my wife left her cell phone ringer on. Her friend (female colleague) that she seemed to always be hanging out with texted her at 1:16am. The vibration of the phone on the wooden nightstand woke me up. I knew she was having an affair that very second when my ww told me it was just her friend (I refuse to say her name) letting her know that her plane landed. Really, who sends a text to a friend at 1:16am to let them know their plane landed? - Long story short, we recovered. She was sorry, no more contact with AP (only appropriate due to being colleagues), marriage counseling, individual therapy. I would say she did all of the "right things" I am reading here except she blamed me for the affair and to this day believes, to a degree, that I forced her to have a 6 month affair. During our recovery I learned that the affair ended when AP refused to come out of the closet to her family. If she was willing to "come out" my marriage would have ended. Discovering this set me back quite a bit in the recovery process.

This past July (2023) my ws confessed that she had a sexual affair with a professor at her university (she was not studying under him.) We were engaged and living together. This was un unprompted admission, completely out of the blue. She said that she had cold feet and the affair began when she went to his apartment seeking advice regarding cold feet marrying me. This revelation undid the past 13 years of recovery that we both worked very hard on. Up until the affair in 2008 to 2009, I felt that we at least had those magical days of first meeting, young love, yada yada. That first year was truly the happiest year of my life. Since this recent reveal I feel like I have lost everything. I have been unable to concentrate at a very stressful, mathematically intensive job. After 2 months of "faking it till I make it at work" I had to resign. I was not happy with my work, I was unable to give them my undivided attention and felt continuing to take the company's money was immoral. I do have another job now, it pays less than half of what my old job paid. Money will now be a slight hardship but at least this new job does not require much from my brain.

I was thinking of responding to KiboGaAru's "3 Days Post DDay" under "Just Found Out" but decided that it probably would work as a standalone post instead of a reply.

I have read so much good info on this forum. Thank you. I wish I knew about it back in 2009, but I am relived that instinctually I took many of the advised steps here.

Areas of concern are that
1) She remembers so few details of the affair with this professor. She does not remember exactly when, she can not remember his name, she can not remember how many times she slept with him. [I find this impossible to believe.] She also gets angry and shuts down if I bring it up.
2) I am shocked that something that happened so long ago can devastate me to the point that I could no longer perform my professional duties.
3) I never got tested for STDs because first AP was a lesbian. I am embarrassed to go to our family Dr. to have a STD panel taken. Any advise regarding getting tested?
4) I am now realizing that my wife has a mental disorder that makes lying and cheating very easy for her, and I am obsessed that she had many other flings and affairs. I traveled a lot without her. She had the means and opportunity. She would say I gave her the motive because (I paraphrase here) I spoke with a harsh tone a few times when I was upset.

I can not believe I am back in this awful place emotionally. I do appreciate all of you here and as many have testified, it really does help knowing we are not alone, and our situation, despite how embarrassing, is really more common that we realize. When I read others' stories the pain is palpable. I am sorry for all of our suffering. I feel better knowing I am not alone in this, yet in my physical world I feel alone often, even when I am with ww. I have a great therapist and it is helpful, but oddly I am realizing I have other pressing issues we are working on other than my marital issues. No matter what happens I will come out of therapy with a better understanding of my trauma (much from childhood) and how never dealing with this trauma has caused me to be remain in unfulfilling familial, romantic, and professional relationships. Understanding why I accepted less than honorable treatment from many others is going to help me navigate my future. I also understand now that there are worse things than being alone.

First, your reaction is entirely normal. The A was long ago, but the revelation was recent. It's knowledge of being betrayed, not when the betrayal occurred, that is traumatic.

Second, you will get better, whether you stay together or split, if you let yourself heal. IMO - the metaphor I use, you may use another - is that healing for a BS is processing the fear, anger, grief, and shame that come with being betrayed out of your body.

Third, I'm sorry you quit your job, if you liked it. If you had talked with your management, they probably would have made an accommodation. As you heal, you'll have more and more of your mind available for interesting things, so you're likely to have a choice between a challenging career and one that allows more life balance.

Fourth, like you, I'm unconvinced that your W can't remember her ap's name, etc., unless it was so traumatic for her that she has suppressed the memories. Besides, it ought to be possible to find out the guy's name - there's evidence that the best way to remember something in one's memory is to work to remember, though I can't remember where I read that.

I think her nt wanting to discuss her A is a big red flag.

Fifth, you can get tested for many STDs by giving blood. Also, I made my W get tested, and the folks who did the work (doc, nurse, phlebotomist) were not judgmental in the least. You're the victim here; I think you can expect outright kindness. Given that the A was so long ago, you're probably OK, though some STIs hide for a long time.

I think you can have a lot of confidence that you're not harboring any STIs, but I hope you make sure of it.

Also, lesbians can get STIs, too, especially if they're not monogamous.

Sixth, lying isn't a diagnosable mental disorder. All WSes lie, if only by omission. They just do. Lying is their mode of living because it has worked. Not letting it work anymore may change that mode of life. IOW, demanding honesty from your W may be all that is needed.

Demanding effectively requires you to be honest with yourself and with her (and probably with everybody else, too). One way to this works is by determining and defending your boundaries.

One way to do that is to tell your W she has to come up with facts about the A or convince you she has lost the memories. Another is to tell her she has to discuss the A without anger or lose you. But don't do it unless you'll really leave if she doesn't meet your requirements.

Not so BTW, one requirement I'd make is for her to start IC with a goal of changing from cheater to good partner and with a release that allows her therapist to talk with you.

Seventh, her confession may be a greeen flag, depending on why she confessed. Do you know why she told you about it?

I hope you realize that everything you are feeling is to be expected.

Your W took away your confidence in your marriage, her, your ability to choose had you known the truth and all that goes along with it.

For you, I hope you get counseling Just for you. You will be able to vent and discuss all the issues and feel you are being heard.

You did not force your wife to have an affair. Cheaters love to blame the spouse/partner for their unhappiness. It’s typical cheater behavior.

[This message edited by The1stWife at 5:51 PM, Tuesday, October 17th]

Hi,

Sorry you have such a mess to unpack.

Just to clarify you are a male, do you have children?

Thank you sisoon and The1stWife for your thoughtful replies.

Sisoon,
1) Thank you for helping me understand my feelings here.
2) I never really fully anticipated the somatic effects from all of this stress, yes!
3) I did not love the job. I could have coasted a bit longer, but it honestly was time for me to make a change. I will look for better opportunities when I feel I am ready. This brain break is actually very nice, especially for me right now.
4) Agreed. This is a huge red flag here. But I can be patient a little while longer. I can't explain why I need to know more, I just do. That should be a good enough reason for her.
5) This is not my highest priority but I really would like the assurance of knowing.
6) The lies pierce my heart like a dull knife. I have also been gaslit like the rest of us, no doubt.

I have not been consistent with my boundaries. I was doing better last week and weeks prior. I allowed non productive stuff to spin around in my brain. During this latest round of our disagreements, I started stuff bc I failed to reinforce my brain with better thoughts. Started with the stupid "what If" self talk.

We are not yet in a place where I can insist that "she has to come up with facts about the A or convince you she has lost the memories. Another is to tell her she has to discuss the A without anger or lose you." I am not prepared to really leave emotionally or financially, yet. And I really do not want to. I want the R. We did it successfully for over a decade once already.

She is in IC. Not sure if she would be willing to give consent, but that is actually a very good idea.

As for the confession about the professor, she was in training for CME credits. The memories came up after 4 or 5 days of EMDR training. So this very well may be the green flag you refer to. However, few humans on this earth have met another human as intelligent as my ww. She is off the charts intelligent. So her not recalling the name is totally not congruent with my understanding of her intelligence and knowledge of her ability to recall nearly every time I used a harsh tone of voice during the past 23 years. I am calling BS here.

The1st Wife,
Thank you for giving me the context that I need here. Folks that have not dealt with infidelity really have no idea of what we all have had stolen from us. WS's steal all the good faith so many honest, loving, and considerate folks deserve and may not get when bs's that D start dating again. I need to understand more about the way cheaters operate. It's like I grew up in an alien culture where folks are kind, honest, and sincere. What planet do cheaters come from, seriously?

Thank you all. Have a peaceful night and day to come.

Thanks survrus.
I am male. Kids (3) are grown and out of the house for a decade or more.

I allowed non productive stuff to spin around in my brain. During this latest round of our disagreements, I started stuff bc I failed to reinforce my brain with better thoughts. Started with the stupid "what If" self talk.

I don't think that's a bad thing brother. While I do believe that positive reinforcement and mindset plays the biggest role in our healing, I also firmly believe that we have to embrace our grief and to feel in the moment to help process through our emotions on the way to recovery. Feeling the pain, questioning, self doubt is all part of the grieving process - but you have the right rational mindset to know where you need to be. I have no doubts that you will heal - it is a matter of time and energy to work through the process. I shared a story here (https://www.survivinginfidelity.com/forums/?tid=661689), that perhaps might help shed some insights into yourself.

I am not prepared to really leave emotionally or financially, yet. And I really do not want to. I want the R. We did it successfully for over a decade once already.

What does reconciling look like to you? What do you need to be happy in a relationship with her? For what it's worth, I will put it out there for you to think about - did you meet that definition of truly reconciled with her before, if she wasn't being totally honest and transparent and forthcoming with her past activities?

I'm not saying you should divorce or reconcile - that's your decision to make based upon your circumstances and needs. But I do think it is worth your time to reframe the situation in terms of your needs and your wellbeing, instead of a singular focus on the marriage. You can only be responsible for your healing, she can only be responsible for hers, and it takes both of you to make a marriage work, no matter how much effort one partner puts into it.

Your feelings are perfectly valid. It's okay to hurt. And it's okay to know that you will be okay.

My W was an academic star. She held a couple of prestigious fellowships in grad school. She was well-thought of in 2 professions (serially, not at the same time). Her profs in her 2nd profession lobbied her to get a Ph.D. and teach. Some of her 1st profession work has been pirated and sells on various sites and free on at least one site. She has terrible trouble placing events in time and putting things in sequence.

Also, she had a couple of traumatic dates, and she has long since forgotten their names. One was the son of a C-level guy at a MAJOR corporation, so I know his surname - but I've always read business pages of newspapers, and W doesn't.

Lies, lies ... the sex of my W's A hurt, but what hurt most was the lying and the lack of trust. That's true for many, if not most, of us. You're in good company.

If your W isn't willing to allow her IC to talk with you, I'd be very concerned. You can suggest discussing it in a joint session with her IC. I think a good IC would tell you that specific questions would be answered only in a joint session and that the IC would want your W to answer your questions. One thing I wanted to avoid was my W telling me she was working to R and using IC to prepare to leave - which I saw in a member of a group therapy group many years ago. The therapist could not warn the guy's W because he would not give her permission to talk with his W.

IDK about 'patience'. I do know - and you need to know - that an ultimatum won't work unless you're willing to impose the consequence that you threaten. Even more important, you need to know that you need to find your own healing path. Sometimes that comes quickly, sometimes not, and you have no need to defend yourself if someone thinks you're too slow. If you're not ready to force a choice, so be it. Besides, tactically and strategically, you know yourself, your W, and your sitch than anybody else does. You get to - and must - do what you think is best. It's your life, and no one here can live it for you. I know you're not having fun right now, but the fact that it's your life is really something to celebrate.

Hang in, life gets better.

[This message edited by SI Staff at 5:43 PM, Monday, October 16th]

Hi SerJR, thank you for taking the time to read my story and taking the time to respond so kindly.

I also firmly believe that we have to embrace our grief and to feel in the moment to help process through our emotions on the way to recovery. Feeling the pain, questioning, self doubt is all part of the grieving process - but you have the right rational mindset to know where you need to be. I have no doubts that you will heal - it is a matter of time and energy to work through the process. I shared a story here (https://www.survivinginfidelity.com/forums/?tid=661689), that perhaps might help shed some insights into yourself.

I took the time to go and read your post with the campfire and wolves. I am going to go a little off topic here but my point is that dreams are very important to me. I rarely dream. I have dreams that are typical, pedestrian, but I also have had a handful of dreams that foreshadowed (in my interpretation) events that would happen very soon. Usually within a few days.

Late night Thursday March 12th 2009 (or early am Friday Match 13th 2009.) At this time my wife and I were not close (rarely having sex at that point) but I really did not know she had been in a very serious 6 month affair with a woman, a colleague, also a casual acquaintance of mine as well. In my dream I was being chased by a pack of wolves. The wolf that was closest to me and gaining ground was a black wolf with really bright yellowish / amber eyes. I remember the eyes so vividly. I was terrified, panting (I could really feel the terror, the fear, the physical exhaustion.) I could not run any further. I decided to yield, to stop running, to allow myself to be devoured by the wolves. I woke up sweating in a panic. I woke up and decided to commit this dream to memory because it was NOT just a dream (in my opinion.) This was the weekend her AP went on a vacation with her "boyfriend (he was just a "beard" because she could not come out to her traditional family.) I remember telling my W about the dream (but honestly back in those days she may have been courteous but she neither actually listened nor cared.) I remember seeing my wife get dressed. She looked great and I noticed that she lost weight. I put the dream on the back burner and was thinking about how good my w looked all day at work. I began sexting here and she responded very passionately. I could not wait to get back home after work. We pretty much stayed in bed all weekend. The kids were away for the weekend (me one from my prev marriage, here 2 from her previous marriage) with their respective other bio parents. -- That Sunday night (actually 1:16am Monday) was when my wife was distracted and must have accidentally left her cell phone on vibrate. The vibration from her AP text woke me up. Now I tend to dabble into fantastical thinking and in my mind the dream with the wolves was either my guardian angel preparing me for something or my intelligent body (my gut) telling me that it had enough information to prompt such an intervention. This sounds crazy probably but it is what it is.

SerJR, I also want to address the pain that I felt in the days, weeks, and months after I found out about this affair. I remember feeling like such a fool, a buffoon, so insignificant, a poor excuse for a man, a zero. The self talk was absolutely brutal. It was just as brutal to her also, and justly. I did not sleep for 3 or 4 days. I stopped eating (also stopped drinking water and got a kidney stone which hurt less than the pain of the affair.) I remember driving our youngest to school 2 days post D Day. I desperately wanted to just start rage crying. I do not know how I did it but maintained my composure until she was out of the car and into the school yard. I started crying as I drove, but it wasn't the "real cry" that I needed. I knew of a private wooded area in the middle of nowhere and just felt the need to go there and cry. I parked the car and just started screaming, wailing, crying for 20 minutes maybe longer. I ran out of tears. I remember calling my mom and balling, sobbing, shaking, as if I was a little boy. My mom could barely understand my words and she just said just come home. I drove to my mom's home, about an hour away. I slept all day. I drove back to my apartment and ww that night. For the next several nights I would go to the most private place I could find and just scream, cry, moan, self-sooth by rocking my body back and forth. None of us can aptly put words to what we all felt at that time, and we do not need to. We all understand this pain.

But I do think it is worth your time to reframe the situation in terms of your needs and your wellbeing, instead of a singular focus on the marriage. You can only be responsible for your healing, she can only be responsible for hers, and it takes both of you to make a marriage work, no matter how much effort one partner puts into it.

Well here I am thinking we were in recovery, my ww had all these opportunities to come clean yet she never told me about the first affair with this un-named professor while we were living together and engaged to be married. And now all of these feelings are back with a vengeance, and yet it's worse because I no longer have the illusion of a honeymoon. I trust her less than ever. I am angrier at her than I have ever been. I have put in my time and effort, of course I could have done better because I did not know about the techniques I have recently read about here. We did MC and she did IC. I should have done IC, but we were in an incredible amount of debt at the time and felt she needed it more than me (totally wrong assumption I understand now.) My needs and well being may require me to heal without having to worry about her. I have been poor for so long and we finally got out of debt (college, grad school loans almost paid in full without any gov bailouts, proudly.)

I keep hearing about the pain she was in that drove her into the arms of others, the pain that caused her to self harm (cutting), the pain that made her overeat and gain 60 pounds at one point in time. But I also understand that she had all of these things to temporarily relieve her from her pain. I had no such outlets other than to sit and deal with my thoughts and somatic pain (or so I thought at the time.) So what does my recovery look like? My therapist tells me that being a kind, sincere, honest, and ethical human is my nature. He said this because I said at one point "I am going to cheat on her, I am going to have an affair." He immediately said, maybe instead you should look at what your life may look like leaving her and being alone, starting over, being poor and living in my trailer on some vacant land despite being almost 60 years old. He said that nearly anytime you (meaning anyone) need to go against your deeply help moral values just to fit within the framework of a relationship it can and usually will lead to more unhappiness.

New news this morning. I just found out she had Whatsapp installed on her iphone even though we agreed 2 years ago to never download such apps onto any of our phones. Our middle child (her oldest from 1st marriage, I do not have much contact bc he has always been loyal to his bio dad) lives overseas. She claims she needed Whatsapp because it's the only way she could communicate with him. I called BS and said she can email him or call long distance.

So today, I begin to explore what my life will look like moving on. I came from a middle class family and was never really poor until I went to college (at 36 years old) and she went to grad school. We were still paying child support to my ex wife. It is tough being poor and I hated it it. But how much worse can it be than what I am feeling now?

Hi sisoon,

If you're not ready to force a choice, so be it. Besides, tactically and strategically, you know yourself, your W, and your sitch than anybody else does. You get to - and must - do what you think is best. It's your life, and no one here can live it for you. I know you're not having fun right now, but the fact that it's your life is really something to celebrate.

Hang in, life gets better.

Thank you for this. Intellectually I know it will get better (for me.) Unfortunately, I probably will not get to actually find out how bad it was, how promiscuous she was. I am a numbers guy (not in any way a mathematician however.) But I crunch numbers and calculate budgets for projects in the 7 digit range (well I used to be really good at this anyway...) In my estimation, I only think I have seen the iceberg above the water level. I love her dearly, I will miss her terribly if I decide to leave. I am terrified of staring over at my age. But I can't do this anymore. I need time to get my ducks in order. If I stay I will not begin healing UNLESS she begins to finally really talk-talk and remember stuff.

I am not perfect. I am human. I can get angry. I can use a harsh tone of voice. I can be impatient. I never screamed at her, never called her names (well I did have a few choice words in July 2023 and called her a "lying c-word" at one point and a whore at another point. I also told her at one point I hated her (but I hated the way she made me feel at that time.) I never had an affair. I have been preoccupied with work, my bio son's mental health, and this caused me to be distant and probably cold at times. I know this was wrong now. But I shared every thought, every dream, every fear with her for the past 23 years. This is the God's honest truth here.

I am absolutely terrified with the prospect of staring over again. OMG it's horrifying. What's more horrifying is that there were signs all along that I ignored.

My previous marriage failed because of stress caused by having a child with a mental handicap (Aspergers / Autism spectrum stuff, SI at an early age, 4 psych hospitalizations prior to being 15 years old for SI [no attempts thank God.]) Neither of us would have been capable of lying or cheating (both of us were raised in really ethical, moral, religious families), we just did not like each other very much and had a shotgun marriage bc having an abortion was absolutely out of the question. What I am saying here is that infidelity was not something that happened in our respective families (and if it did it was handled discreetly.) My ex w and I are pretty good friends now, my ww and I spent last Friday night with her and stayed at her home for a night. We have gone on vacations together. I do not think either of us could have maintained our friendship if we broke up bc of infidelity.

"Never underestimate the power of denial."

Your WW seems to still be in Love with her affair partners.

They exist in her mind as the ones who got away who were so close to giving your WW happiness.

Hence your WW still protects her affair partners and sees you as being in the wrong and keeping her memories sacred.

WW not remembering OM name is non sense except if your WW has had so many affairs, ONs, and etc that she couldn't remember them all.

After these affairs did she ever regain her love for you, did she ever kiss you passionately ever again for example?

I mean she might view you as useful and trustworthy but what does she really feel about you.

Did you go back and out the OW to her parents, drive a stake into the vampires heart so to speak, research who the professor is and expose him.

At a minimum have your WW write out a timeline for her affairs and take her for a polygraph.

Now I tend to dabble into fantastical thinking and in my mind the dream with the wolves was either my guardian angel preparing me for something or my intelligent body (my gut) telling me that it had enough information to prompt such an intervention. This sounds crazy probably but it is what it is.

I do firmly believe that sometimes, not all times, our dreams are telling us something. I've had very similar dreams in the past - where you're running but can't run fast enough (or even at all). I believe that this can be interpreted that, subconsciously, you felt a loss of control - something was catching up to you and there was nothing you can do about it. I think this was you, at some level, processing all those signals you've seen, realising that something was wrong, and that you had to stop denying it and confront it.

SerJR, I also want to address the pain that I felt ...

Yeah... the pain was intense. It's normal. Intense grief and loss is a part of the universal human experience. But within those depths, by allowing ourselves to feel, there exists the potential for remarkable transformation through our healing. That hurt is a testament to the fact that we're human, that we care. But up against such pain, we can discover our true potential to redefine our paths and rediscover who we are, and what we can do. And those scars from the hurts we carry become a source of remembrance to our strength, our resilience, and our wisdom.

I keep hearing about the pain she was in that drove her into the arms of others

Sure... but how much of that pain was self-inflicted?

So today, I begin to explore what my life will look like moving on. I came from a middle class family and was never really poor until I went to college (at 36 years old) and she went to grad school. We were still paying child support to my ex wife. It is tough being poor and I hated it it. But how much worse can it be than what I am feeling now?

Only you can answer that. And only you can make that decision. And you can only do that when you are ready. But it doesn't hurt to explore your options and educate yourself - you will find that you will rebuild your sense of self esteem and empowerment by taking control back over of your life in this manner.

One slightly reworded quote to reflect on - seemingly silly at first, but with some hidden depth - No matter where you go, there you are.

I didn't go deeply into fear in my healing because my W was a great candidate for R, so I have only an inkling of what you're going through as you contemplate splitting, and I have a couple of thoughts on that. Since you like numbers :

1) I stay out of the D/S forum because of superstition, but I do know about this thread, which I cannot recommend more strongly: https://survivinginfidelity.com/topics/497843/fear-vs-reality/.

2) 60 seems young to me - you still are likely to have a lot of good years left. You're not making as much money as you could right now; that is a plus in D, in case maintenance is involved. As you heal, you'll retrieve your brain. You'll be able to get back into a higher-paying job. You'll be able to choose between higher pay and more freedom.

3) At 60, if you're in half-way decent shape, you'll probably be a magnet for hot young women - you know, 50-somethings. The kids around here don't realize how attractive women of 50-60-70 can look to a guy in middle age. I have a few words for them: Sophia, Loren, Jane, Fonda, Salma, Hayek, Gong, Li, Emma, Thompson....

4) You report crying, not eating or sleeping, etc., as if they're problematic results of d-days. I've gotta say 'yes and no'. Yes, eating and sleeping well are better for your health than the opposite, one's body does take a hit.

But extended crying and not living one's normal life can also be treated as the first steps in healing. Being betrayed is traumatic. It it doesn't fuck up your life, you're not taking in the pain. The next step if to start releasing the pain. Extended crying, screaming, hitting a pillow, letting the pain flow through your body, dreams and even nightmares - all these can help process the pain out of your body. So far, your posts say that's what you're doing. It's as painful as I imagine hell might be while you do it - but the work pays off.

Hi survrus,

Thank you for your reply.

I guess I have no way of knowing what is in her heart and mind regarding her still being in love with her affair partner(s). Can any of us actually truly know what is in any other's heart and mind?

I am not sure if she is protecting this professor or she does not truly remember his name. I have tried finding a yearbook from this small college attached to a small university. I have spent many, many hours doing online searches. I will find out eventually, even if it costs me a chunk of change. If he was married or even is married now I will out him. I will also write a letter to the university regarding his sleeping with a young grad student that he knew was cohabitating, engaged, and soon to marry. He was 48 or 49 years old back in 2001 when it happened. I doubt he is still a professor now.

As for the other woman, I wrote a letter to her beard boyfriend, he broke up with her (no loss for her, she did not lobe him), AND I learned she did come out to her parents because she could not take the fear knowing I was doing everything I could do legally to make her life miserable.

My wife has kissed me passionately every single day since the first D Day. Every single day.

The timeline is a great idea, except this was 22 or 23 years ago. Pretty hard to reconstruct, but it's still possible. I know I could because I have a very great memory.

Thanks

Hi SerJR,

Thank you for your words and not thinking I am loony for my thoughts regarding dreams. I have dreams, and then DREAMS that are so stark, affect me so deeply, that I make it a priority to write it down immediately or commit it to memory as best I can if I do not have a pen and paper. In my almost 60 years I have had (4) DREAMS that foreshadowed life changing events within the next few days. And when I have these dreams I become hypervigilant. I could dedicate way too much time to dreams but this is not the time or forum for that.

I agree and recognize that dealing with this pain now (with the current level of intensity) is draining the pain reservoir, and one day I will not have anywhere near as much pain to process.

Right now I still think there is a strong chance for a true R. Maybe I am a fool? But it is exactly what I desire. However, I see the merit of exploring my options regarding S or D so I can be prepared in every way necessary.

I feel really blessed and cared for here on this forum. Never saw anything like it and am so happy I discovered it.

sisoon,

My w left a voicemail and emailed a request for a consent form so that her IC can speak with me. I was present when she left the message and hit send on the email. I will attend a session with her to discuss what I need as far as information so we can begin the R.

As far as WhatsApp on her phone, it really does not look good. But the situation is a little more nuanced that I can disclose here. I have her personal phone now. I deleted WhatsApp and saw the only messages were from her son. But as many of you all know, WhatsApp is a very cheater-friendly application, especially now with the vault feature that requires biometrics to see the "locked" texts.

I did read the thread that you suggested. I too am superstitious and will not put too much of my energy into that part of the forum, but it's good to see it and know there is life after all this if we S / D. I have been through a divorce already, but I felt like I had so many more options when I was 35 compared to now being almost 60 now. But as you said, 60 is young. And I have been hitting the gym hard since the 2nd D Day in July. The gym is what has gotten be through the past 3 months actually. 4-5 days a week and no more skipping leg day like I used to.

Yesterday I did a quite a bit of pain processing. Laying in bed last night I was listening to music with headphones on and had a steady stream of tears flowing from my eyes for nearly an hour. Not really induced by sad thoughts, it was just almost like my sinus was draining (gross I know.) It really seemed like it was just my unconscious body releasing pain / processing trauma. It was actually pleasant in a very strange way.

Thank you all!

Laying in bed last night I was listening to music with headphones on and had a steady stream of tears flowing from my eyes for nearly an hour.

That's good brother. Some say tears can cleanse your soul and wash away the hurt. I would say it's even more than that... sometimes it's just all the extra "awesome" building up inside you with nowhere else to go... a sign, or perhaps even a warning... that you're about to do something truly incredible...

SerJR,

I love this. "That's good brother. Some say tears can cleanse your soul and wash away the hurt. I would say it's even more than that... sometimes it's just all the extra "awesome" building up inside you with nowhere else to go... a sign, or perhaps even a warning... that you're about to do something truly incredible..."

Thank you.

sisoon,

I just read something that you wrote in another thread (https://www.survivinginfidelity.com/forums/?tid=661647&ap=1#mid8810863)

Consider confession. Confession means something, but the meaning depends on the context. I believe my W confessed as a way to stop lying; her confession aimed also at letting me know what she had done so I could respond knowing the full sitch. Others confess because they believe the aps are going to out them anyway and hope the confession will mitigate the consequences. Some confess to dump their own pain onto their BS (and will continue to do anything to dump their own pain onto others).

So out of the blue (maybe not really, we had a spotty summer as far as me having these overwhelming feelings that the one affair that I knew about was not the only one and I began asking more questions) my ws confessed to something that happened in early 2001. First she tells me that she was having cold feet and she went to this professor's apartment (she used to have lunch with him in the cafeteria, and several of her friends knew about this EA while we were engaged and living together.) Then she tells me she kissed him. Then she tells me she could feel his hard penis when she was hugging him, then she tells me she remembers taking his vest off, Then she says she "thinks" she gave him a blowjob "because that's my (her) thing." But she said she didn't fuck him,. Then she says yes she fucked him. Then she denies everything. This really set me into an emotional tailspin all day. I tell her she is destroying me emotionally and I need to know. Then she finally says yes I fucked him.

That night was a horrible night. I had a pretty serious panic attach. I got dizzy and weak and remember falling down and getting hurt. I remember being on the bathroom floor puking into the toilet. (she was really scared and very helpful.) I remember calling for my son saying where is he, I need him. I remember not being able to get to my feet in time to urinate and I pissed myself on the floor.

A lot of really smart people asked me "why did she confess this now, so long after the fact?" She said the images came to mind while she was doing some intensive EMDR training. I think (bc I catastrophize things) she did this to dump her pain onto me in a twisted way. She often emotionally manipulates me. She loves that the world thinks she is this sweet, smart, funny, charming person. Literally everybody loves her. And me, I am pretty sincere. If I like you or love you it will be pretty obvious. If I do not like you it will be obvious also. What really bothers me is that because I am akward socially (probably some Aspergers going on here) folks we meet just like her more than me. The irony is that I am an honest, warm, and a very generous person. She is selfish, cruel, she lies with impunity, and practically every single thing she does is self-serving. BTW, she is a therapist so she knows exactly how to manipulate me into feeling bad for things I shouldn't and taking blame for things that cause her to behave the way she does.

I told her that we have until mid December for her find out this professors name. Mind you I have spent well over 100 hours doing google searches to try to find a faculty roster for the year 2000 - 2001 at this university. I have searched Facebook Market, Ebay, etc to look to buy a yearbook so she can look at the pictures to tell me who this motherfucker is (sorry for the profanity but she was wearing a huge engagement ring, he knew we were living together, and our nuptials were imminent.)

At this point I am done searching for this information. This is her job now. She can either call the school and get a list and maybe even a PDF of the yearbook, or she can work on retracing events to recall this information. I decided to S if this is not resolved by mid December. That's a fair enough amount of time for her to get this info (or convince me it is impossible to get this information in the presence of her IC.)

PS, one of her friends that most likely knew about both of these affairs (in her cohort in grad school also) but definitely knew about the affair with the female colleague from 2008 - 2009 and did not try to discourage it (more likely was saying, "you go girl.") I have gone on several vacations with this friend and she has become a friend of mine the past few years. I have read that really neither of us should continue having contact with friends that knew about the affair and did not actively discourage it. Is there a statute of limitations regarding this? At this pint I feel like just ghosting (I know immature) this person.

* Edited for typo 10.18.23 *

[This message edited by wondayatatime at 5:15 PM, Wednesday, October 18th]

Hey wonday... just going to leave you with a couple of quotes from what you wrote here, for you to reflect upon...

Right now I still think there is a strong chance for a true R. Maybe I am a fool? But it is exactly what I desire. However, I see the merit of exploring my options regarding S or D so I can be prepared in every way necessary.

And then...

She is selfish, cruel, she lies with impunity, and practically every single thing she does is self-serving. BTW, she is a therapist so she knows exactly how to manipulate me into feeling bad for things I shouldn't and taking blame for things that cause her to behave the way she does.

I noticed with that last one you wrote it in the present tense.

What does R look like to you?

Thank you SerJR,

This is the 2nd time you have asked me what R looks like for me and I really failed to answer the most salient question I have been asked in probably 14 years.

For me this is what I have to do for my recovery and I guess this indicates what my R will look like:

1) I need to work out my FOO issues in my IC. I have a substantial amount of childhood trauma. I have never filled out and calculated my ACE score. I will do that today. I live with someone that can provide an ACE print out.
2) I need to eventually trust her again, not sure if it could ever be 100%, but I'd like a 95% or better. The work needed for this has to be done by both of us as a team.
3) I need to give her an opportunity to help me when I start thinking about the past and the A (or A's.) I want to be able to NOT get passive-aggressive and provide a safe space so that we can both talk or at least a create a place she feels safe enough to listen. I have not been providing that consistently.
4) I want and need her to know that she is the love of my life. I want to spend not just this life but eternity with her.
5) I need for her to explore the pain that she has caused me and not get repulsed by shame and guilt which causes her to avoid this topic. Oddly when it comes to the trauma and abuse that I experienced with my FOO, she is fully engaged, loving, and compassionate. I think it's because she did not do that stuff to me.
6) I have to just be more consistent with everything. I can be mercurial.
7) I need to stop thinking of her as two different people. She is the Angel I fell in love with AND she is the monster that has triggered me into SI on a few occasions (I CURRENTLY DENY ALL RISK.) She is just a fucked up human like me with poor coping skills.
8) I need to be less judgmental

This is what I think I need from her for the R.

1) I NEED TO KNOW THIS PROFESSOR'S NAME. Complete disclosure of all the As (EA and PA) and possible ONS. She dissociates A LOT. I think A LOT has been blocked out. I think she may feel like she is protecting me, but this slow drip of disclosure actually is a form of torture. I think she enjoys it sometimes because HATES me at times and I do not know why.
2) She needs to remain in IC and invite me to some of her sessions
3) She needs to stop packing all of her bags and calling friends and family to see if she can move in with them every time we have an unpleasant conversation regarding this "unnamed" professor.
4) She is highly intelligent and she needs to stop being so arrogant. She does not realize that I am smart and aware enough to pick up on her subtle put downs.
5) I want her to stop denying that she was in love with her AP from 2008 and 2009 and admit that she was in the process of leaving me. They were at the point (she admitted) that they were both looking at sperm donors and wanted to each have a child from the same donor. Yet she can't admit that she was in the process of leaving me. D Day 1 accelerated the timeline and her AP was not ready to come out to her parents.
6) I do not want to have to validate every decision or my reason to VETO something with a lengthy explanation of why. Sometimes I do not need to have a reason. Of course the more important the issue, the more it does merit a lengthy explanation.
7) I would love random, unsolicited disclosure about some other non-infidelity related lies that she has told me. (Like spending money as a shopahaulic.)
8) I want her stop her self destructive tendencies (shopping, rapid weight gain / loss, cutting)
9) Her FOO and even her grown children have ZERO respect for her (she married me, a non-tribe member and they do a lot of things to try to break us up so she can move to their new home overseas.) Our recovery will absolutely require her NOT traveling to a dangerous country in the Middle East every year for 10 days or more to be with them. Her parents, grandmother, ex-husband, and kids (aged 15 and 17 at the time) left the states about 11 years ago and moved to another country. We were broke and could not afford an appropriate attorney to fight this. He parents instead of helping us fight moved with them. Her own daughter said that if she did not let her move to the new country that she would not speak with her anymore. And yet to this days she wastes so much of our time and energy trying to regain their affection. This is probably our biggest Non infidelity issue.

SerJR, and really would love to see if this is some of what you wanted to see when you asked me what recovery would look like.

Thank you for your time and effort you put into reading and responding to all of our posts.

You don't even know the name of one of the AP'S,and packs her bags,and actually calls everyone asking if she can stay with them,anytime you want to talk about that particular AP.

Your attempt to reconcile is difficult because you have an unremorseful ws, who still won't give you transparency. She is choosing to protect this professor, over your marriage,happiness, and mental health.

You say you need her to know how in love with her you are,and how you want to be with her forever..even despite this abuse. And THAT is why she is acting this way. She knows you aren't going anywhere, so why should she do any of the things you need? She has no consequences, and your pain isn't a factor for her.