SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

Before responding to this post, I request that I receive no put-downs or criticism of my sexual/relationship choices. I don't go onto polyamory threads and post my honest opinions about that lifestyle, so please do the same courtesy and simply ignore this post if you think I'm misguided about wanting to only have sex within marriage.

Does anyone have any tips about dating conservatively? Specifically, I'm referring to not having sex before marriage, and I'm referring to adult dating, because I'm in my late 40's.

To give some background, I have been abused/cheated on by two different men and am so done with giving men chances and giving in to have "relationships" outside of marriage. Men always expect this, but I can no longer bring myself to share my body with a man without a commitment. And by "commitment" I mean a real commitment, marriage, not just lofty words. I've learned the hard way that "I love you, am exclusive with you and am committed to you" mean nothing when said by some men. I don't think it would be healthy for me or in my best interest to have non-marital physical romantic relationships again. I just finished my second round of STD testing after DD2 of cheater ex, and feel very protective of my body.

I'm a Christian but in a liberal congregation, and I don't want to change churches, so it's not like I can just meet like-minded men at church. Interestingly, I've only had two interactions with men at a church (my old, not current, church) that were related to romance, and they were both awful. One was a man who was married and tried to befriend me, at first I thought it was innocent, but over time it became clear that he wanted our acquaintanceship to turn to something more. I ignored his remarks until finally I just couldn't anymore. He wanted to "stop by" my then-new house to give me a housewarming gift, and I told him that would give people the wrong idea. He responded talking about divorce and I couldn't believe it. I was disgusted that he would be willing to discard his wife so callously and without any encouragement. We had no romantic relationship at all, firstly because I would never, EVER, commit adultery, secondly, I didn't find him attractive (mostly because he was a cheater type, he was okay physically), and thirdly, I was his son's Sunday school teacher. How on Earth could he have been willing to hurt his nice son like that??? Finally he got the message and stopped bothering me, though. The other man was a recently divorced younger man who I briefly dated and he then ghosted me. It had never gotten physical beyond kissing but it still hurt a lot because I was falling for him. Ending things I can understand, but ghosting? That's just mean and I hadn't done anything to hurt him. So yeah, those experiences with men at church weren't good at all, and they didn't act the way I expected a good Christian man to act. I eventually had to leave that church (where I'd spent 13 years) because of how uncomfortable I felt with those experiences. So I'm not eager to meet a man through church anyway, because I like my current church and don't want to start feeling bad about being there like happened at the other one.

Sorry for rambling on. I'm processing trauma and starting a new life, so I have a lot to vent about, I guess. I'm adjusting to my post-cheater single life with a new home, invited my elderly mother to live with me as her rent helps me pay the huge mortgage that I had to take on in the midst of the housing price boom, and I have a teenage son who is chronically ill. I'm also now in graduate school, getting a degree that should help me earn more in my field, as I'll need more money if I ever want to be able to retire. I'd like to get married someday, but am not counting on it and am doing everything required to take care of myself and my son (his father is an abusive deadbeat).

Anyway, if any of you have any supportive tips, from either a man's or woman's perspective, for proceeding back into the dating world, with the knowledge that I won't have sex outside of marriage, please share them. I'm not a tease and won't lead a man on sexually, but at the same time I'm not going to declare "no sex before marriage" on an early date, as that would make me sound crazy, like I expected or wanted marriage from him after a few dates or something. See my predicament? Any advice? I'm prepared to spend the rest of my life single, which might happen. But I'd like to try to meet someone, and am unsure how to proceed through this minefield. TIA.

[This message edited by morningglory at 1:10 AM, Monday, April 25th]

I have no idea of the size city you live in.

But, volunteer places.

I don't know about online dating for religious people and if they exist whether they're any good, but a few searches on Google should let you know if they exist, although if you're in a small area it won't be good.

Get involved in hobbies you like and you'll meet like minded people.

OK, you like your church and want to go there. So, don't change churches, but you could look into a bible class or two at another church and only do the bible class at that church, as a way to meet others there. My old church had bible classes on Wed nights and on Sun mornings.

I don't know what your church is like, but if it's like that, you could go to bible class and church on Sunday's at your church and to a bible class on Wed nights at another church.

Just throwing out ideas is all.

And with respect to this:

"I was disgusted that he would be willing to discard his wife so callously and without any encouragement. We had no romantic relationship at all, firstly because I would never, EVER, commit adultery, secondly, I didn't find him attractive (mostly because he was a cheater type, he was okay physically), and thirdly, I was his son's Sunday school teacher. How on Earth could he have been willing to hurt his nice son like that??? Finally he got the message and stopped bothering me, though."

Did you let that man's wife know?

If not, why?

First of all, I respect your choices.

I am also finally thinking of marriage as well. I no longer want to just date.

Aside from what you are already trying and what others have suggested, here are some other ideas:

1. online Christian dating. It does exist. I haven't tried it much. I don't like online dating on a good day.

2. online regular website: stating strong Christian beliefs, and marriage oriented. You can weed them out fast.

3. There is nothing wrong with making your intentions known early. If you 'scare' the guy off regarding marriage, he's not your guy. You can say something like: I would be open to marriage with the right person. Would you? This way you don't waste your time. Be bold. Throw caution to the wind and let your real needs be known.

4. Get involved in things you enjoy. Make new friends. Be chatty in public situations.

5. Let your friends and family know you are wanting to date. Let them help you get the word out there.

6. Get super clear on what you want.

7. Pray! God is the best matchmaker...and we also have to do our part and discern.

Keep us posted!

[This message edited by GraceLove at 6:46 AM, Monday, April 25th]

I completely understand and respect your values and beliefs.
I think it’s beautiful
I agree with GraceLove about allowing God to help you find the right person for you
Nothing is impossible with God. Allow him to do the hard work for you. He probably already has someone in mind for you. Prayerfully submit to God and wait for his deliverance. I really do believe that God will do something amazing.
And a word of caution about people at churches….. not every person that goes to church are true followers of Christ. We’ve had some married men at our church prey on women. And my xWH’s AP considers herself a "Christian". And my xWH now attends church in hopes of meeting a woman to replace his AP with.

Morningglory, I wanted to reply when I first saw your post, but I didn't want to start your thread off on a cautionary note, so I thought I'd let others chime in with their good suggestions. But you may want to think about how doing this turned out for me, and figure out how to navigate the dating world with your requirements, considering there are people out there that might seem totally fine without having pre-marital sex (with you...) Read on for more....

In the mid-1990's, I was in my early 40's and about where you say you are regarding the men in my rear view mirror (I'd also been divorced since age 31 from a 12 year "marriage of convenience.") In the years after my divorce, the single life had just not been kind to me, shall we say. I was determined to try doing something different, to avoid getting the same predictable results: more heartbreak.

So, one change I made was to join a local dating service. It wasn't great, lots of 3 time losers, etc. but at least it was some going out and chatting kinds of dates. Then in my mailbox, along came a letter of interest from the dating service: a guy 7 years younger than I was, from another country, never married due to his military career and traveling jobs in the auto race business. Hmmmm....I agreed to meet him, but told him after our first date (very fancy dinner and dance) - when he wanted to stay at my house and get frisky - "I'm not interested in the bedroom bit with you." (I said it as gently as I could. I mean, I was really NOT attracted to him after only a few hours together, plus I knew where that route would have taken things.) He surprised me by telling me later on: "I decided even though you told me that, I liked the idea of having you for a friend..."

And that's how we began regularly dating; soon he wanted to join me when I'd get up Sunday morning to go to church. We started spending weekends together like pals, and had good times travelling together. I figured as long as he kept calling, I'd keep trying to see where it went. When I asked about his past sexual experience(s) he assured me he was totally unfamiliar with all that stuff, having "never had a girlfriend." Since he was morbidly obese and SHY, it never occurred to me he might have been blushing because he was lying, I just figured he must have been embarrassed to admit that to me, and I accepted his story.

Four long years later, I felt we were at a stalemate of some kind. I was ready to either get married again, and I felt he and I were a good team, or that I needed to break our very part-time platonic dating thing off so I could maybe find somebody who was ready to settle down again. At first he got cold feet when I told him this, and was hurt (I understood why). Then he surprised me again with a marriage proposal! We married 6 months later. I felt sure I knew him pretty well by then (even considering we had never lived together or even had sex together.)

So what's not to like, besides it took him 4 years to "commit?" Well, it turns out that all the time he'd been courting me, meeting all my family and church friends, and letting me get to know his work buddies and family over the phone (across the ocean), there was another side to his story that he was ultra careful to hide from EVERYBODY: he had always used prostitutes; lost his virginity to a prostitute. Sad. It would never have come out, either, had he not gone back to that lifestyle 4 years after we married.

Turned out he is a man who, all of his life, has been walled off from everybody, and most comfortable staying at some distance from messy things like family and marriage. Impossible to have seen this coming? I don't know the answer to that.

When we date, how can a woman avoid attracting men who are uncomfortable with true intimacy, when what we want is healthy intimacy, but just not pre-mature intimacy? Maybe I just got unlucky, but I cannot help but think there had to be a better way than what I did. Sorry if this is too long.

I wish you the success you deserve in this!

"Did you let that man's wife know? If not, why?

No, I didn't let the man's wife know. I didn't know her well- had only briefly spoken to her a few times, and English was her second language. That was one of his grievances about her, that they didn't communicate well because of the language barrier. I thought, "Well, why did you marry her?" This was also before I was properly educated about cheaters, so all I knew was what popular culture told me, and as we all know, the dominant message is to mind your own business. Today, I would probably tell her, although that would be hard because nothing happened between us, it was just him being verbally suggestive & I never talked to him again after he mentioned divorce, so I wouldn't have had that much to say or any proof. This was about 10 years ago.

[This message edited by morningglory at 11:32 PM, Monday, April 25th]

Superesse, I'm so sorry you went through that. My recent ex-boyfriend also used prostitutes as well as having an affair with an old friend that was brutal because I was worried and he successfully gaslighted me about it, making me feel I was mental & defective... until I found the naked pictures. That was the boyfriend who outright pledged love, exclusivity and commitment to me, but was gunshy about marriage so I tried living with him. Huge mistake as it was 8 years wasted with someone who ended up cheating and then throwing me out of the house with nothing in the midst of a housing price boom. No settlement, no officially shared assets to split, nothing, all because we weren't married. So I'm never giving of myself in that trusting way again. It's just too dangerous and it's the last time I'll let a man leave me in the dust with nothing. At least if you're married & he cheats, you get a settlement and some social acknowledgment of what you lost. Not when he was just your "boyfriend", even though it was eight years, longer than some marriages.

I also just can't take it emotionally, giving myself physically to someone who isn't committed and loving enough to make the ultimate commitment. I've been so hurt by men in the past, I'd rather die single than go through that again, being used by a man and then quietly thrown away.

[This message edited by morningglory at 12:25 AM, Tuesday, April 26th]

...I'm not going to declare "no sex before marriage" on an early date

Oh but you should!

6. Get super clear on what you want.

THIS

I did OLD during my NB. I can tell you that not everyone is looking for a hook-up. I know it seems like it, but there really are folks out there for which that not on their want list. There really are folks out there looking for a relationship of companionship and connection, etc.

I most respected the folks that were very clear with their wants. Meaning, I had one guy who was looking to marry. He was very open about it in his profile and during communications. He had no problems going through the stages of dating but marriage was his goal. If that wasn't what you wanted (which I did not), then he needed to move along. I liked that he knew what he wanted and made it clear. There was no sense wasting either of our time. We did not get into details further (since we were not a match) but I would suspect he had no intense in premartial relations either.

Whereas another guy contacted me and he said he was just looking for someone to connect with and have hook-ups. He had no interest in a further R. Again great - because it was an easy next for me.

You have NOTHING to lose by being straight forward with your boundaries. If that person is not willing to wait, you want to know that immediately vs wasting time/hearts.

And by "commitment" I mean a real commitment, marriage, not just lofty words. I've learned the hard way that "I love you, am exclusive with you and am committed to you" mean nothing when said by some men.

A person of integrity will be committed with or without that marriage certificate. Just because a person withholds until M, doesn't mean they are any less likely to cheat just because there is that piece of paper. Look well beyond them just respecting your boundaries.

I understand not wanting to date within your church. I ended up leaving my church after my D because it was just too hard with my Ex's and ILs there. I tried but I just couldn't. But I would recommend letting your church community know you are looking to date because they may know contenders outside of your congregation.

EvenKeel makes my point very well:

Just because a person withholds until M, doesn't mean they are any less likely to cheat just because there is that piece of paper.

And EvenKeel's follow-up is clearly what I didn't know how to do:

Look well beyond them just respecting your boundaries.

EvenKeel addressed integrity; my question is: how can we measure a person's integrity? Like, are there any good means of actually determining integrity early in dating? Dating protects us from a relationship's most challenging moments (having to join funds, join lives, make commitments of various kinds, etc.) I'm thinking that we cannot predict how someone will call upon their integrity, until they are faced with a particular situation. Thus the gamble. Interesting discussion! Thoughts?

I agree with Evenkeel. Leading with it is going to weed out a lot of men, but those are the men you WANT weeded out.

Best of luck to you. I respect you so much for knowing what you want and not compromising.

A person of integrity will be committed with or without that marriage certificate. Just because a person withholds until M, doesn't mean they are any less likely to cheat just because there is that piece of paper.

The three men in my life (I'm in my late 40's) who said they loved me and were committed to me, yet didn't want to get married, all broke those promises to me eventually. They didn't all cheat, but as the years passed I learned from their actions that none of them were really committed or deeply loved me, despite their words. So I disagree with your statement. I think that having to put it all on the line, and commit in front of friends, family and officially join together legally and financially, indicates a commitment that just saying the words in private does not indicate.

That isn't a guarantee that a married partner won't cheat, obviously. But being married is a greater barrier to cheating/abandonment than not being married.

I look upon requiring marriage from now on the way I look upon putting on a seatbelt when I ride in a car. Will the seatbelt guarantee that I won't get hurt in an accident? No. But it does reduce the chance that I will get hurt. A man who has taken the step to publicly and legally wed, signing legal documents, yes, is a safer bet than a man who only makes you verbal promises in private.

Dating protects us from a relationship's most challenging moments (having to join funds, join lives, make commitments of various kinds, etc.)

So many people on this forum were betrayed by spouses that I think they can have a romanticized view of remaining unmarried. My experiences of LTR break-ups were devastating. I still had to go through a bitter custody battle with one of them. I was financially damaged by another, because we had no legal relationship, I had no financial rights to anything despite having lived with him, helped pay bills, and kept house for him (in addition to my full-time job) for almost 10 years. No, "common law marriage" isn't the protection that some people assume it is. In my state, it is a big nothingburger, unless you've both spent years verbally telling everyone you know that you're married, and how many cohabitating couples do you know who actually do that? None.

Just casually dating, no sex and no real relationship has minimal risk, sure. But if you're going to actually have a real sexual relationship and live with someone, share your life, I believe that marriage is the way to go.

[This message edited by morningglory at 5:15 AM, Thursday, April 28th]

Morningglory, I wonder if you took my comment about dating "protecting us" from deeper, more costly commitment as an endorsement of dating over marrying? On the contrary, I was trying to express how it seems really difficult to evaluate a date's interpersonal integrity when there ISN'T that depth of commitment. As in "how does one go about doing this?"

Morningglory, I wonder if you took my comment about dating "protecting us" from deeper, more costly commitment as an endorsement of dating over marrying? On the contrary, I was trying to express how it seems really difficult to evaluate a date's interpersonal integrity when there ISN'T that depth of commitment. As in "how does one go about doing this?"

Ah, I misunderstood.

Ah, I got too poetic! Was trying to express ideas from both sides of the "relationship" see-saw! My 4 dating years with this man were much more comfortable for him than I think they were for me...since I wasn't seeing anybody else. Little did I know he was doing what he was doing...

You make a good point about the risks involved with choosing to try what some used to call "playing house." Yet there are lot of practical reasons people want to cohabit. Many aren't even love-related. It is so complicated....

At Uni I was in a choir. About half were Uni age but the other half were older.

Numbers of people a rehearsals could vary from about 30 to 90.

It was a non-audition choir, there were some very good singers, but no one was excluded.

The people in these groups tend to be a little conservative (lots of engineers). Quite a few Christians as well because many got their love of music coming up through church and religious schools.

Something like that would be a good way to simply meet people l, bond over a common interest and socialize. No pressure. And just maybe you will meet someone with similar values you click with.

Specifically, I'm referring to not having sex before marriage, and I'm referring to adult dating, because I'm in my late 40's.

I'm not putting you down here. I'm going to be as gentle as possible. I think there are conservative men out there. I think there are men that would wait until marriage for sex, that are in their early 20s. I think the pool of men that would be willing to wait until marriage for sex in their 40s is extremely small. I also think it's a massive risk to not have sex before marriage, and if a man did have that value in his first marriage, he almost certainly would drop it for his second marriage. I'm unaware of any non-religious men that hold a personal belief that sex should only be done in marriage.

You are free to set any standard you want for your potential boyfriend and eventual husband. Just recognize that you really are setting a hard filter that is going to leave you with very few options. Almost all deeply religious men like that are going to be married by 30. Since this same religious hardline also tends to ban divorce for any reason other than adultery, you would only have access to widowers or men that have been cheated on (or that cheated themselves, but I'll assume they are out). So you are virtually guaranteeing a husband with either adultery experience with his ex-wife or a dead wife (who died young).

Let's say 3% of men would be willing to wait for marriage for sex (got the number from a google search).

Of those, let's say 100% get married before 30.

Of those say 25% get cheated on. Of those, lets say all of them get divorced but only half still retain their hard line on waiting for sex until marriage. So that's going to be 0.375% of men. You also get the 3% * about 1% that have the wife die in the right window which is 0.03% of men. That's simply *having* the right life experience. We also have to hit a window that is available to you. Quick average (say 15 year window/75 year life expectancy) that's only 20% of the men that have had or will have that life experience.

That leaves us at about 1/1000 men meeting your *requirement*. Multiply that by how likely the two of you are compatible. That's your chances of success.

Anything other than trolling the obituaries for church involved women that have died recently in their 40s and trying to meet their widower is leaving too much up to chance. And that's a very morbid way to go about this...

I also think it's a massive risk to not have sex before marriage

Your opinion, your sexual values. Your message is completely unhelpful and disrespectful. On my first post I asked people who disapprove of my sexual choices to not post their disapproval of my sexual choices, yet that's what you've done. I already made the point that I don't go onto other people's threads and criticize them for their sexual choices, but you think you have the right to belittle and criticize mine.

I've already explicitly stated that I've prepared my life to be single through retirement if need be, and that I'd rather die alone than be used and/or abused again in a non-marital relationship. I've even shared some (not nearly all) of the trauma that I've been through in these non-marital relationships. There is a lot of risk involved in them, particularly for women.

There's nothing unsure about the perspective I've shared in my posts. I wasn't asking, "Should I do this?" I've asked for advice on how to proceed. You have no advice on how to proceed, so please don't post unhelpful criticism of my sexual choices in an attempt to discourage me and others who might feel the same way, especially using faux numbers that you've pulled out of your...um, head.

[This message edited by morningglory at 9:24 PM, Thursday, April 28th]

The only thing I said that I would consider mildly disrespectful (if it wasn't meant in a dark sort of humor) was my advise you troll obituaries for widowers. It was also my only bit of actual advise other than setting your expectations that men with the very specific values you want, that are available, are rare and inherently damaged.

[This message edited by This0is0Fine at 9:52 PM, Thursday, April 28th]

than be used and/or abused again in a non-marital relationship.

So far with dating I have found that the men want the sex right away and as soon as it's given up the relationship or whatever it is changes. So I think you have good reason with these boundaries. I'm finding myself disappointed in this dynamic and am almost resigning to never doing the OLD thing again. I thought it was fun at first, but seems to be a pattern with the men and I hate to be so gender specific but hell that's what I'm attracted to lol.

Hate to agree but during my post-D dating DECADE, I found the exact same thing would happen, sooner or later....usually once the "shiny new thang" phase ran its course for the guys...yes, folks, I didn't wake up to that dynamic for a long time, silly woman that I was. Even though my father had tried to explain that at my age then (late 30's-early 40's) "...all the good men were taken." I just hated to hear that and felt he was being extremely pessimistic out of fatherly concern or perhaps cynicism about his fellow men. Now, I wonder if he wasn't right when he advised me to find a young widower.

[This message edited by Superesse at 4:40 PM, Friday, April 29th]